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Penalty fare issued 15 seconds into journey as asking for ticket

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455driver

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heh heh heh

Still though Im surprised this got to so many pages - the OP was in the wrong and that should be that really.

But you are forgetting to allow for the apologists on here that try to turn everything around to be the railways fault even if their 'reasons' are absolutely nothing to do with the incident in question but could happen one in a million times!
 
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island

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I frequently travel this line (from Westbury) in the mornings, and FGW staff are always happy to sell tickets on board, regardless of origin station. There are some passengers I have noticed getting on at Westbury who always buy their tickets on the train, despite the station having two ticket machines and a ticket office.

Having noticed this, I have on a couple of occasions done this myself (when running late) and certainly was never issued with any kind of warning, printed or verbal!

I can't comment on what may or may not happen on specific trains, but the FGW penalty fares scheme is clear on the matter, and penalty fare warnings are printed on the back of the Avantix Mobile stock that is supposed to be issued to guards.
 

RJ

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But you are forgetting to allow for the apologists on here that try to turn everything around to be the railways fault even if their 'reasons' are absolutely nothing to do with the incident in question but could happen one in a million times!

Nobody has sided with the OP as far as I can see. It is a fact that what might be straightforward to you, might not be to others.

Mixed messages are going out, as FGW routinely allow the sale of tickets on board to those boarding at Penalty Fare stations with ticket issuing facilities. This isn't something that happens often in places where PF schemes are usually found - on DOO trains where people can't use that excuse. Call it being an apologist if you like, but that's the situation as I see it.
 
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Clip

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Nobody has sided with the OP as far as I can see. It is a fact that what might be straightforward to you, might not be to others.

Mixed messages are going out, as FGW routinely allow the sale of tickets on board to those boarding at Penalty Fare stations with ticket issuing facilities. This isn't something that happens often in places where PF schemes are usually found - on DOO trains where people can't use that excuse. Call it being an apologist if you like, but that's the situation as I see it.

Im guessing they don't actually allow it however they more than likely turn a blind eye to their guards from selling them as it still means they get revenue - unless they get stopped by an RPI.

Lets face it, you know the rules are about buying a ticket beforehand - that's simple, yes? good. Then that should be the end of any discussion about the OPs situation.
 

Via Bank

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Im guessing they don't actually allow it however they more than likely turn a blind eye to their guards from selling them as it still means they get revenue - unless they get stopped by an RPI.

Lets face it, you know the rules are about buying a ticket beforehand - that's simple, yes? good. Then that should be the end of any discussion about the OPs situation.

We know the rules because we are railway enthusiasts who are experienced with and understand the intricacies of the ticketing system. Other people are not. Other people couldn't give a flying duck about the various inconsistencies of the penalties system. They just want to get to their destination, and the vast majority want to pay the correct fare.

If you have previously seen people buying tickets without incident on the train, and you did not see the Penalty Fare warning, why on earth would you not deduce by example that it was perfectly OK to pay on the train?

(This is bearing an eerie resemblance to another thread concerning penalty fares recently, but I'll put that to one side...)
 

RJ

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Im guessing they don't actually allow it however they more than likely turn a blind eye to their guards from selling them as it still means they get revenue - unless they get stopped by an RPI.

Lets face it, you know the rules are about buying a ticket beforehand - that's simple, yes? good. Then that should be the end of any discussion about the OPs situation.

In my experience, people tend to go by established local customs, rather than what the "official" rules are. There comes a point when routine relaxation of the official rules becomes the norm. I've worked for TOCs that don't enforce Condition 19, allowing non-complaint splits. Or have a novel, but illogical approach to overdistance and peak time 'upgrades'. Staff and passengers alike don't question it, but it would take a long time to get people used to the correct way of doing things.

Schemes like these PFs on this part of FGW's network and Northern's FTP should be eased in, because it takes time to reeducate the public. If they're used to buying on board and staff are still selling on board, it's hardly going to sink in overnight.

I'm not questioning the logic of what you say, but logic and human behaviour doesn't always go hand in hand.
 
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221129

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In my experience, people tend to go by established local customs, rather than what the "official" rules are. There comes a point when routine relaxation of the official rules becomes the norm. I've worked for TOCs that don't enforce Condition 19, allowing non-complaint splits. Or have a novel, but illogical approach to "upgrades". Staff and passengers alike don't question it, but it would take a long time to get people used to the correct way of doing things.

Schemes like these PFs on this part of FGW's network and Northern's FTP should be eased in, because it takes time to reeducate the public. If they're used to buying on board and staff are still selling on board, it's hardly going to sink in overnight.

There has been a PF scheme in place here for quite a while...
 

Flamingo

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The only thing wrong with the PF scheme around Bristol is that not enough are issued...
 

davetheguard

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The only thing wrong with the PF scheme around Bristol is that not enough are issued...

On the contrary, if the scheme is working, the number issued should be going down.

That would show that the message is getting through that you must buy a ticket before travelling (where facilities exist), and that the Penalty Fare is seen as a deterrent to ticket-less travel by the public.

However, I have no knowledge of what the numbers issued are.
 

EM2

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We know the rules because we are railway enthusiasts who are experienced with and understand the intricacies of the ticketing system. Other people are not. Other people couldn't give a flying duck about the various inconsistencies of the penalties system. They just want to get to their destination, and the vast majority want to pay the correct fare.
The OP has 57 posts and has been a member of the forum for over three years.
If they were not an enthusiast, or as a bare minimum vaguely interested in railways, would that be at all likely?
 

Via Bank

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The OP has 57 posts and has been a member of the forum for over three years.
If they were not an enthusiast, or as a bare minimum vaguely interested in railways, would that be at all likely?

I didn't say that. I said other people, with no direct reference to the OP. I for one have certainly seen people getting caught out by this before, being PF'd when offering to pay.

If we are focusing solely on the OP's case, clearly they should've known better, but if they did not see the notice (they claim not to have seen one, and I see no reason to believe they are lying) then it is simply an unfortunate mistake or misunderstanding of the PF rules.
 

cjmillsnun

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The only thing wrong with the PF scheme around Bristol is that not enough are issued...

On the contrary, if the scheme is working, the number issued should be going down.

That would show that the message is getting through that you must buy a ticket before travelling (where facilities exist), and that the Penalty Fare is seen as a deterrent to ticket-less travel by the public.

However, I have no knowledge of what the numbers issued are.

I think the point is that you need enough issued for the word to get around so that people buy tickets.
 

Clip

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We know the rules because we are railway enthusiasts who are experienced with and understand the intricacies of the ticketing system. Other people are not.

The rules are quite simple and have been in place for many many years and are widely available both on line and in print form at the station.

Even the OP knows the rules(or appears not too) yet still got them wrong.

The rest is just wibble.
 

Hadders

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It is a tricky one.

I live in GN territory. You have to have a ticket before you travel, most of the stations have barriers etc. If nothing else 'custom and practice' is quite clear.

I recently travelled from Peterborough to Lincoln and then Lincoln to Nottingham. Many of the stations lacked ticket offices and TVM's. Plenty of passengers buying tickets on board, rightly so as it's 'custom and practice' in that area.

The problem comes when someone used to buying a ticket on the train travels in an area where this isn't 'custom and practice'.

In an ideal world all stations would have ticket issuing facilities but it'll cost far too much to equip every tiny shack and wouldn't be cost effective. Equally, you can't have a situation on busy commuter routes where widespread sale of tickets on board is allowed as massive fare evasion would result.

I don't know the answer - I guess the status quo is all we can do.
 

SJN

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I work in a penalty fare area. I will sell tickets on the train if they haven't got one but I always point out the notices and explain that next time they could receive one of those. The problem is, on my routes, there aren't many barriers so I would rather they buy a ticket than get a free journey and the RPI's cant be on every train
 

Flamingo

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I work in a penalty fare area. I will sell tickets on the train if they haven't got one but I always point out the notices and explain that next time they could receive one of those. The problem is, on my routes, there aren't many barriers so I would rather they buy a ticket than get a free journey and the RPI's cant be on every train
I also point out the consequences of not buying a ticket - and get roundly abused for my pains - usually by people like the OP who did not have time to buy a ticket and how dare I say that they should get there earlier...
 

Clip

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I also point out the consequences of not buying a ticket - and get roundly abused for my pains - usually by people like the OP who did not have time to buy a ticket and how dare I say that they should get there earlier...

I cant believe you would have the temerity to say that to someone
 

cumfy

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I frequently travel this line (from Westbury) in the mornings, and FGW staff are always happy to sell tickets on board, regardless of origin station. There are some passengers I have noticed getting on at Westbury who always buy their tickets on the train, despite the station having two ticket machines and a ticket office.

Having noticed this, I have on a couple of occasions done this myself (when running late) and certainly was never issued with any kind of warning, printed or verbal!

Exactly. Inconsistent.

I think one solution would be to put a notice directly on all the train doors.
Then it really can't be missed.

Another solution would simply be to program the guards' ticket machines to automatically issue tickets at penalty fare rates from PF stations. No questions, no debates, 20 pounds please!
 

Flamingo

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Exactly. Inconsistent.

I think one solution would be to put a notice directly on all the train doors.
Then it really can't be missed.

Another solution would simply be to program the guards' ticket machines to automatically issue tickets at penalty fare rates from PF stations. No questions, no debates, 20 pounds please!
Another (better option) is buy the ticket before you get on the train.

Simples!
 

cumfy

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Another (better option) is buy the ticket before you get on the train.

Simples!

Sorry you misunderstand me.
I am suggesting that these measures would be more effective and just than the current PF measures implemented.

Your suggestion is independent of the the PF implementation and not what I was referring to.
 

MikeWh

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Another solution would simply be to program the guards' ticket machines to automatically issue tickets at penalty fare rates from PF stations. No questions, no debates, 20 pounds please!

So you'd charge a penalty fare even if the station has been notified as closed due to staff shortage or TVM broken? Or how quickly would you expect every guards machine to be updated remotely?
 

edwin_m

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Anyone any idea why the guards on this route aren't allowed to charge PFs?

("because they aren't RPIs" isn't a valid answer)
 

Flamingo

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Anyone any idea why the guards on this route aren't allowed to charge PFs?

("because they aren't RPIs" isn't a valid answer)

I'm afraid it is.

PF's can only be issued by authorised staff. Guards are not authorised staff. This is because they have got other more important duties, and the issuing of PF's would distract them from those duties.

To repeat (again :roll:), revenue is what Guards do when they are bored, or want to know where everybody is going to, or want an excuse to interact with the passengers for whatever reason, or want an excuse to kick some annoying individual off the train at the nearest convenient spot.

As a guard, Revenue is not my problem. Delay minutes are not my problem. The safe running of the train, and safety and security of everybody on board IS my problem. Punctuality and Customer Service come next. Revenue is less important than making sure the First Class trolley has gone through.
 
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Ediswan

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I think one solution would be to put a notice directly on all the train doors. Then it really can't be missed.

FCC did exactly that. Does anybody look at the outside of a train door other than to work out how to open it ? On the inside, the notices are only seen by those standing just inside the doors, or the first of the seated passengers waiting to get off. I'm not saying it is a bad idea to put notices on doors, but they can be missed.
 

RJ

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Anyone any idea why the guards on this route aren't allowed to charge PFs?

("because they aren't RPIs" isn't a valid answer)

To be honest, I've seen a few losing their temper over ticketing matters as it is. I'm not convinced it's a great idea to have safety critical guards doing time consuming Penalty Fares. PFs are more likely to lead to conflict than normal ticket sales.
 
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Merseysider

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On the 1624 off Worcester FS and the guard has allowed a pensioner to travel with a receipt ("you must have left your tickets in the machine") and allowed one numpty to pay with his online only card by swiping it after it's been declined. So much for Penalty Fares and consistency :lol:
 

najaB

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On the 1624 off Worcester FS and the guard has allowed a pensioner to travel with a receipt ("you must have left your tickets in the machine") and allowed one numpty to pay with his online only card by swiping it after it's been declined. So much for Penalty Fares and consistency :lol:
I'm not surprised at the pensioner, but I am surprised that they've done a swipe after decline. I thought it had been posted here in the past that staff were specifically told not to do that.
 

Merseysider

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I'm not surprised at the pensioner, but I am surprised that they've done a swipe after decline. I thought it had been posted here in the past that staff were specifically told not to do that.
I could understand swiping if the TVM was out of order, but it wasn't, because other people boarded with tickets from that station.

The numpty in question displayed disbelief at his card being declined but then asked the guard "Isn't it free when it does that?"

Maybe the guard was new ;)
 

bb21

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Was the ticket of a very high value?

Quite often if the ticket is not worth that much, it is a lot less hassle to just swipe the card than getting into any potential arguments.
 
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