Penalty fare letter but was never told or given documentation at the time (second appeal)

[user128]

A month ago, I travelled from Essex to London Liverpool Street on an advance single ticket. There was no barrier at the starting station, and it was only when I reached my destination that I realised that my advance ticket was for the following day. This was obviously my dumb mistake, and I would have found out about it at the beginning of my journey if I hadn't happened to have boarded at a non-barriered station, or if I had had my ticket checked en route.

I voluntarily told the employee at the barrier what had happened and asked to buy a new ticket. I was sold a new ticket. The man spent a while playing with his machine and at one point said that it "was my lucky day that his printer was not working" or he would have given me a penalty fare. I didn't know what that meant but apologised again and went on my way. I was at no point led to believe that this was not the end of the matter.

Three weeks later, I got a letter from IRCAS charging a penalty fare of £100. (I never got the chance to pay the reduced charge apparently, since I didn't know a penalty fare had been issued!)

My initial appeal with AS (with all the info above) was rejected, but the rejection doesn't really engage with any of the details I provided. I think that, despite me appealing >21 days after the event, they have reduced my charge to £50.

So, my question is: Is it worth me making a second appeal, particularly on the basis that the penalty fare was clearly not correctly issued because they are supposed to give me documentation or at least tell me that they have issued it? Obviously I can't exactly provide evidence that nothing was given to me...!

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi, welcome to the forum. The best way to get good advice here is to show the forum pros what correspondence there has been so far, so they can see the state of play. Perhaps you could show us please, making sure that you hide your name, address and their reference number so this stays anonymous?

 

[user128]

Thanks. The only correspondence is the IRCAS letter and the response to my appeal. The letter is at home but I can post a pic this evening.

Here is the text from the response to first appeal. A couple of perhaps interesting other things to point out: (1) They spell my name wrong on both letter and this response (2) it says full payment options are included with this response, but they are not.

Dear xxx

Re: Penalty Fare Notice xxxx


Our Ref: xxxx Date: 26 March 2025


Thank you for your correspondence concerning the above referenced Penalty Fare Notice issued by Greater Anglia on Wednesday 05 February 2025.

The Appeals Service (AS) is independent of Greater Anglia. AS provide a service which gives the recipient of a Penalty Fare Notice the opportunity to dispute the issue. To ensure consistency, AS follow a Code of Practice compliant with the criteria set out in the Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022 when making assessments of Penalty Fare Notice appeals.

All transport companies operating a Penalty Fare scheme display warning notices which advise transport users of their obligations and the potential consequences in failing to meet these.

The transport user is required to show on request a valid ticket. The period during which a ticket is valid is clear on purchase, and is clearly shown on the face of the ticket. It is your responsibility to check that this is valid for the desired date of travel prior to boarding the train. As you failed to do so on this occasion, and were unable to produce a ticket valid for the date of your journey, the inspector was correct to issue a Penalty Fare.

On assessment your appeal has been declined, however you have the right to re-appeal.

You may submit a further appeal by creating a new appeal online at www.appealservice.co.uk, by fax to 0844 544 8454 or send by post to AS, Regus, Building 1000 Lakeside, Western Road, Portsmouth, PO6 3EZ.

Payment of £50.00 or a further appeal must be received within 14 days of the date of this letter. If making payment, you also have any additional time left on your Penalty clock. Full payment options and information including, what will happen if you do not pay, are detailed with this response.

IMPORTANT: Please note that failure to pay or further appeal within this stated time may result in Greater Anglia taking further action to recover the outstanding debt.

Finally, as an appeals service which is independent of Greater Anglia we are unable to investigate complaints concerning Greater Anglia service or staff conduct. Please therefore contact Greater Anglia direct with your requests and concerns.

 

[jfollows]

Penalty Fares can’t be issued after the event, so you shouldn’t have received one subsequently, if you did it’s probably invalid but it may be something else so it’s important to see the paperwork please!

Maybe they’re saying you were issued a Penalty Fare, but you weren’t, so there may be a paperwork mess-up. A second appeal could help in holding things for now, but sometimes it seems to take until the third appeal until anyone properly reads what your appeal says.

Your statement, which you’re prepared to make in court if need be, is evidence in itself, although not as conclusive as you might like I agree.

 

[WesternLancer]

Three weeks later, I got a letter from IRCAS charging a penalty fare of £100. (I never got the chance to pay the reduced charge apparently, since I didn't know a penalty fare had been issued!)

To give you appropriate advice it's going to be necessary to see a copy of this letter (remove your personal info and the ref number) as well as any subsequent correspondence from both the Railway company and IRCAS, and ideally copies of what you said in your Appeal.

Then experts here can advise you on your options and how best to take them forward.

 

[user128]

Thanks all. I just posted the text from the appeal reply but it is "awaiting moderator approval". I can send a pic of the letter when I get home. That is the only correspondence I have received.

 

[furlong]

If you were not given anything in writing at the time, then you were not given a Penalty Fare.

It is that simple.

Nevertheless if they let you use the penalty fares appeal system once already, then I'd suggest following through with that system as it will make it tricky for them subsequently to prosecute - see 11(3) of the Penalty Fares regulations.

Consider a second appeal quoting 5(2) of the regulations

(2) Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged—

(followed by a long list of information)

As this didn't happen, the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations ref 17(2)(b), 16(3)(a) meaning the appeals panel must uphold the appeal under 17(3) and 17(4).

Also you say you were sold a new ticket. Do you still have a copy of that or evidence of the payment for it?
It's one or the other - new ticket or penalty fare - never both.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks all. I just posted the text from the appeal reply but it is "awaiting moderator approval". I can send a pic of the letter when I get home. That is the only correspondence I have received.

a pic of the letter when you get home (with your personal info blanked out) is probably best if you can do it.

 

[user128]

Also you say you were sold a new ticket. Do you still have a copy of that or evidence of the payment for it?
It's one or the other - new ticket or penalty fare - never both.

Yes, and I provided evidence of this in my appeal. Is that definitely true? My reading of the regulations etc was that you were charged BOTH the cost of the new ticket AND the penalty fare.

 

[gray1404]

Please upload the correspondence you have so we can know for sure what we are dealing with

 

[fandroid]

If it was a Penalty Fare then both elements (the £50 reduced penalty and the ticket ) would have been charged together at the same time.

 

[user128]

Thanks for your time all. I can confirm that I was charged only for a new ticket. I did give my name and address but as I said the employee stated that his printer wasn't working and I assumed that was that.

Here is the "reminder" letter which was in fact the first correspondence I received.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s going to be extremely difficult to get a PF overturned on the basis it wasn’t issued, else it would be a defence anyone could use. This could well turn into “one of those”.

 

[user128]

In my first appeal, this is roughly what I said:

"I am appealing this "penalty fare" because it is clear that Greater Anglia did not follow the correct process (which also explains why this appeal is late, because I have only just been informed about the notice). I also note that I had bought a ticket and that there was no intention to not pay or to deceive the operator. For the reasons below I respectfully request that you cancel any remaining charges immediately.

[description of what happened]

I was not asked to pay anything else, was not given a penalty fare notice and was not told to expect one. I am attaching proof of my original ticket purchase (wrong date) and the payment for the new ticket that I was asked to purchase on arrival.

[description of reminder letter]

This is extremely unfair (and a breach of process) because it means that I was unable to appeal or pay a reduced charge since the letter took several weeks to arrive.

I have reviewed the relevant regulations and it is clear that the proper process was not followed. [quote from guidelines about the legal obligation to provide written information and a receipt]. This was not done so this charge is not valid."

For their refusal of my appeal, see my post above.

It’s going to be extremely difficult to get a PF overturned on the basis it wasn’t issued, else it would be a defence anyone could use. This could well turn into “one of those”.

OK. Thanks. What about the view from other people on this thread that, because I have proof that I paid for a new ticket, it can't be a PF? Is it ever possible that they could charge you for a new ticket and then later send you a PF?

 

[signed]

It’s going to be extremely difficult to get a PF overturned on the basis it wasn’t issued, else it would be a defence anyone could use. This could well turn into “one of those”.

If a ticket was sold, then wouldn't that make the case of it wasn't issued?

If I recall correctly the Penalty Fare is a ticket to the next station, so no reason to sell a new ticket, am I right?

 

[AlterEgo]

If a ticket was sold, then wouldn't that make the case of it wasn't issued?

If I recall correctly the Penalty Fare is a ticket to the next station, so no reason to sell a new ticket, am I right?

That a ticket was sold by (who?) would provide only doubt that a PF was issued and not proof. I would not expect it to be accepted. I do think that what has happened here is malpractice and the absent inspector has written the OP up in their absence, but proving that is going to be nearly impossible.

 

[furlong]

It’s going to be extremely difficult to get a PF overturned on the basis it wasn’t issued,

How it's meant to work is the the appeals body asks the inspector what happened and the inspector confirms what you said - that the printer wasn't working and you were sold a normal ticket instead.

It is puzzling why the response to the appeal failed to engage with the argument.

In the next appeal just focus on the essentials. Do stress that if the PF had been issued correctly it would have included the fare so you wouldn't have been sold the separate ticket so the fact you were confirms that the PF wasn't issued.

 

[user128]

Thank you all for the advice. I think it will help if I can understand what should have happened in this case. Where is this spelt out in the regulations? People here have suggested different things. Is it:

1. I get to the barrier, get charged penalty fare of just £100, pay it then and sent on my way
2. I get to the barrier, get charged penalty fare which is reduced because I pay it there and then, pay £50 and go on my way
3. I get there, get charged new ticket (~£30) PLUS penalty fare of £50 which I have to pay all at once
4. I get there, get charged new ticket which I pay right there and then PLUS given PF paperwork which I will pay later
5. I get there, get given paperwork for PF but don't pay anything there and then (and no new ticket)

If #4 is possible, that is what they could claim happened (it didn't because I wasn't told or given anything about a PF).

That a ticket was sold by (who?) would provide only doubt that a PF was issued and not proof. I would not expect it to be accepted. I do think that what has happened here is malpractice and the absent inspector has written the OP up in their absence, but proving that is going to be nearly impossible.

The same person who I gave my name and address to and said his printer wasn't working then sold me a ticket.

 

[fandroid]

Whatever the really odd circs here, I suspect the OP's best move is to pay the £50 and move on. They won't have been charged any more than the same £50 plus the fare if the inspector's printer had been working.

We on the forum can get excited by the failure of the TOC to get the process right, but the OP's chances of getting acceptance of their story are fairly low.

 

[user128]

Whatever the really odd circs here, I suspect the OP's best move is to pay the £50 and move on. They won't have been charged any more than the same £50 plus the fare if the inspector's printer had been working.

We on the forum can get excited by the failure of the TOC to get the process right, but the OP's chances of getting acceptance of their story are fairly low.

Thank you, it's a fair point.
It is kind of interesting though that people cannot even seem to agree whether the TOC should be charging PF only or PF PLUS fare.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you, it's a fair point.
It is kind of interesting though that people cannot even seem to agree whether the TOC should be charging PF only or PF PLUS fare.

No, there is no confusion about this. A Penalty Fare is £100 (reduced to 50 on appeal) plus the appropriate fare. No extra ticket need be sold, that's all included in the PF.

Eg: if the fare is £7.00, my PF will be for £107.00, and I pay £57.00 if within 21 days.

 

[user128]

No, there is no confusion about this. A Penalty Fare is £100 (reduced to 50 on appeal) plus the appropriate fare. No extra ticket need be sold, that's all included in the PF.

Eg: if the fare is £7.00, my PF will be for £107.00, and I pay £57.00 if within 21 days.

OK...so referring to my post #18 above, it sounds like number 3 is what should have happened?

I will submit a second appeal anyway and let you know the result!

Oh...one more technicality is that they spell my name wrong on the reminder letter and online system. It's just a typo which would be noticed if letter hadn't been auto generated. Is this of any consequence?

 

[AlterEgo]

OK...so referring to my post #18 above, it sounds like number 3 is what should have happened?

Yes but you don't have to pay immediately. You have 21 days to pay the reduced rate, from the notice (which you should have been given!).

Oh...one more technicality is that they spell my name wrong on the reminder letter and online system. It's just a typo which would be noticed if letter hadn't been auto generated. Is this of any consequence?

No.

 

[WesternLancer]

Oh...one more technicality is that they spell my name wrong on the reminder letter and online system. It's just a typo which would be noticed if letter hadn't been auto generated. Is this of any consequence?

No - of no consequences really (as otherwise people would say they had no ID but this is my name "it's Smith but with a Y" and then not pay on the basis the name was wrong.

 

[user128]

Yes but you don't have to pay immediately. You have 21 days to pay the reduced rate, from the notice (which you should have been given!).

Right, so the only other question is whether number 4 is possible. That is, is it ever correct that someone is charged the fare part immediately and then the £50/£100 later.

 

[reb0118]

As an aside: are penalty fares issued through the same system that prints normal tickets? Just to clarify, I'm trying to understand how a printer fault precludes the issuing of a penalty fare but allows a normal ticket to be printed.

 

[AlterEgo]

Right, so the only other question is whether number 4 is possible. That is, is it ever correct that someone is charged the fare part immediately and then the £50/£100 later.

No, that is not possible. A PF can only be issued at the time, and you must be issued a notice.

 

[Cuthbert]

As an aside: are penalty fares issued through the same system that prints normal tickets? Just to clarify, I'm trying to understand how a printer fault precludes the issuing of a penalty fare but allows a normal ticket to be printed.

We carry two printers, one for MGs and PFs. Another for our Envoy machines.

I seen other ToCs where you have one or two who come with ticket selling devices the rest of the team use them.

Our PF/MG app allows us to reprint after we unjam the printer which can happen. Seen a ToC who could not do this.

We can only reprint them then, as we have to close the case on the app to issue new PFs or MGs. We cannot go back to the last PF/MG nor get any info if asked after.

 

[fandroid]

Thank you, it's a fair point.
It is kind of interesting though that people cannot even seem to agree whether the TOC should be charging PF only or PF PLUS fare.

How did you initiate the appeals process if you had no original notice? The letter did not invite an appeal, just payment.

 

[user128]

How did you initiate the appeals process if you had no original notice? The letter did not invite an appeal, just payment.

The back of the letter mentions the appeal process, and I googled IRCAS appeals. The letter gave me the notice number which is what you need to start an appeal.