Penalty fare notice following advice from train conductor

[John837102]

So the other day I was making my daily commute to university (From Frizinghall station to Leeds). As a student I am able to use a ‘metro-card’ which, like a rail-card, allows me to purchase weekly and monthly tickets at a cheaper price. This card needs to be topped up by the ticket machines at the station which I normally do. I want to point out that the station does not have a ticket booth/office so there are no personnel at the station. However, the machine was out of order meaning that I could not top up my card at that moment nor buy a ticket. But I thought to myself that I’d just top my card up at the destination as they have a ticket machine before the barriers, which can then allow me to get through the barriers.

So I boarded the train and thought not much of it. Halfway to my destination, I saw the train conductor pacing up and down, asking if anyone needed to buy a ticket. So for safe measure I told the train conductor that I have not got a ticket but I would like to top up my card. He replied saying that I will need to purchase a ticket as he cannot top my card up. I then explained to him that the machine at my station was out of order and that if it was functioning I would not need to spend extra on a ticket as purchasing my monthly pass would cover the journey. He then said that I will need to speak with the ticket officers at the station and explain my situation to them. Please note that at no point did I refuse to purchase a ticket from him.

I thought to myself that I'll just stick with my original plan of topping up my card at the ticket machine, before the barriers, as it would not make a difference. However, at my arrival, I saw that this ticket machine was also out of order. So I made my way to the ticket office but there were two uniformed staff waiting outside of it. I explained my situation to the officer at the ticketing booth which the two uniformed staff overheard. They then intervened in my conversation and asked to see my metro card.

I handed over my metro card which they made checks on and found it was last valid on the 10th of December 2019. He made a point that I’ve had around a month and 2 weeks to top this card up. I replied saying that I did not need a full monthly pass then as it was the Christmas holidays. He then asked if I travelled during the time my M card was invalid which I replied yes to, but I only used return tickets. He followed up by asking why did I not top up my m-card at that point. I replied saying I did not know when I would need a monthly pass next as my university time table had not been published. His colleague then made a point and asked why I did not use the ticket machine from the other platform to which I replied I was running late from my train so I did not have time to go to the next platform and back. (But honestly, I did not think of this because I never use that platform).

They then took my details down and let me through the barriers. I managed to top my card up which would not have made a difference to northern rail if I did it at the station I came from or the station I was at. I had every intention to make a payment and if the train conductor told me that I had to purchase a ticket otherwise ill be fined because I'm breaking the law, I would’ve felt a little ripped off but defo would have gotten over it.

I have now received a fixed penalty notice for £94.50 which explains that I had the intent to fare dodge, but I was just following what the train conductor had advised me to do.

So do you think I am in the wrong here??

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum.

Sorry to hear of this experience; it sounds to me that Northern are in the wrong here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to clarify.

Have you received a Penalty Fares Notice or is it (I suspect) a settlement offer to avoid a prosecution?

 

[Starmill]

It sounds like this is not in fact a Penalty Fare. It sounds like a demand for an administration fee of £90 plus the fare due for a single from Frizinghall to Leeds.

This is obviously complete rubbish. Do you have clear evidence that you paid for the Metro pass at Leeds? Receipt or bank statement perhaps, and a scan of your card on a Smart Ticket app that shows issue time? Clearly it is unlawful for the company to charge you two times for delivery of the same service.

Now the question is, are they accusing you of a crime or a Byelaw offence, or is this unstated? What else does their letter say?

 

[30907]

Halfway to my destination, I saw the train conductor pacing up and down, asking if anyone needed to buy a ticket. So for safe measure I told the train conductor that I have not got a ticket but I would like to top up my card. He replied saying that I will need to purchase a ticket as he cannot top my card up. I then explained to him that the machine at my station was out of order and that if it was functioning I would not need to spend extra on a ticket as purchasing my monthly pass would cover the journey. He then said that I will need to speak with the ticket officers at the station and explain my situation to them. Please note that at no point did I refuse to purchase a ticket from him.

Can I clarify? The conductor said you would need to buy a ticket, but you didn't. That looks very like refusing to me (OK, it was to save a £ or 2).
They didn't need to tell you that you would be breaking railway byelaws as there is sufficient signage at Frizinghall (possibly not strictly legal, but that's been done to death on here...).

That said, their suggestion about the other platform at Frizinghall is pretty irrelevant as it's a few hundred metres away (and not so long ago didn't have a machine anyway).

I don't see how Northern can prove intent to avoid payment. In the circumstances I would contest paying anything more than the Anytime Single fare of £4.50.

(@Starmill: I don't think buying a ticket after passing through the barriers absolves the OP of the need to have paid on the train, hence my previous sentence - I expect we will disagree on this!)

 

[Starmill]

If:
- You tried to use the ticket machine, but couldn't
- You didn't know there was another ticket machine at the station, and could not see one
- There is no sign that says there's another ticket machine on the other platform

I would suggest that this is an excellent defence against the charge of intent to avoid paying for your journey on the grounds that you should have used another ticket machine. The walk is very long and the platforms are not visible from one another. It's pretty obvious that you tried to pay before boarding, on the train, and at your destination.

Whether or not your interaction with the guard on the train constitutes evidence that you tried to avoid paying for your journey is less clear. The company may not be making either claim, though.

 

[John837102]

Just to clarify.

Have you received a Penalty Fares Notice or is it (I suspect) a settlement offer to avoid a prosecution?

Yeah, its a fixed penalty notice which is a little different from a penalty fares notice I believe. The only difference is the amount they charge you and that you cant formally appeal a fixed penalty notice. If I received a penalty fares notice it would have been more understandable but a fixed penalty notice is for those who had the intent to fare dodge, which is why I'm feeling a little hopeless and ticked off.

 

[Starmill]

(@Starmill: I don't think buying a ticket after passing through the barriers absolves the OP of the need to have paid on the train, hence my previous sentence - I expect we will disagree on this!)

If it had been me, I would have tried to insist that the guard and any other staff who might want to speak to me should sell me the correct ticket for my journey (the Metrocard Season). If they were to refuse to do that, following the ticket machine refusing to sell it, their actions would be a very clear defence there against theoretical charges of intention to avoid payment of the fare.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Yeah, its a fixed penalty notice which is a little different from a penalty fares notice I believe. The only difference is the amount they charge you and that you cant formally appeal a fixed penalty notice. If I received a penalty fares notice it would have been more understandable but a fixed penalty notice is for those who had the intent to fare dodge, which is why I'm feeling a little hopeless and ticked off.

Please can you post a photo of the notice and all the communications that you've had?

Please ensure you mask out all the personal details: name, address and any references.

 

[gray1404]

Northern are in the wrong here. There were no functioning ticket issuing facilities at your starting station and the member of staff on board the train was unable to sell the ticket you wanted. Therefore when you arrived at your destination station, that was your first opportunity to purchase and you were deprived of that opportunity. The fact that your smart card hasn't been used since December is irrelevant. Nor are you required to top it up days in advance. What matters and only what matters here is the journey on the day in question and, as I have set out, you did not have an opportunity to purchase.

 

[John837102]

Can I clarify? The conductor said you would need to buy a ticket, but you didn't. That looks very like refusing to me (OK, it was to save a £ or 2).
They didn't need to tell you that you would be breaking railway byelaws as there is sufficient signage at Frizinghall (possibly not strictly legal, but that's been done to death on here...).

That said, their suggestion about the other platform at Frizinghall is pretty irrelevant as it's a few hundred metres away (and not so long ago didn't have a machine anyway).

I don't see how Northern can prove intent to avoid payment. In the circumstances I would contest paying anything more than the Anytime Single fare of £4.50.

(@Starmill: I don't think buying a ticket after passing through the barriers absolves the OP of the need to have paid on the train, hence my previous sentence - I expect we will disagree on this!)

Yeah, that's why I wasn't completely sure whether I was in the right or not. However, when I explained that the machine was broke to the train conductor he seemed very understanding so I assumed that it wouldn't be a problem once I got to Leeds. Although the fare was a really small amount, I just didn't see the point of paying extra when I (stupidly) thought I did not need to. I'm just wondering what any other person would have done in the same situation.

 

[John837102]

Please can you post a photo of the notice and all the communications that you've had?

Please ensure you mask out all the personal details: name, address and any references.

Here it is

 

[John837102]

Here it is

Sorry about the lighting

 

[John837102]

It sounds like this is not in fact a Penalty Fare. It sounds like a demand for an administration fee of £90 plus the fare due for a single from Frizinghall to Leeds.

This is obviously complete rubbish. Do you have clear evidence that you paid for the Metro pass at Leeds? Receipt or bank statement perhaps, and a scan of your card on a Smart Ticket app that shows issue time? Clearly it is unlawful for the company to charge you two times for delivery of the same service.

Now the question is, are they accusing you of a crime or a Byelaw offence, or is this unstated? What else does their letter say?

Thank you for your insight, I posted a picture of the letter below.

 

[gray1404]

What the guard on the train said to you also consistences permission from an Authorised Person. I also highly doubt a conviction under the Regulation of Railways Act will be successful given that you offered up your fare (or started the process in doing so) on arrival at Leeds.

 

[John837102]

What the guard on the train said to you also consistences permission from an Authorised Person.

Thank you for your thoughts. I guess I'm a little nervous about how to proceed with the matter as I've rarely ever got into trouble at school, nevermind with the law! But your view has helped.

 

[gray1404]

Your options here are as follows:

1. Do nothing (I am not recommending this but it is always an option).
2. Pay the amount they are asking and leave it there.
3. Pay the fee they are asking and then contact them afterwards offering mitigation and make a complaint*
4. You could respond to them enclosing a cheque for the amount but ask them to consider not depositing it due to mitigating factors you outline in an enclosed letter
5. Respond to them, not enclosing any payment, but setting out why you feel the matter should not go any further.

*If you do make a complaint you have the right to take your matter to the Rail Ombudsman if Northern's response is not satisfactory. You can also involve Transport Focus and your local MP.

If you do choose to write anything to Northern in response, feel free to draft a letter here first so you can be assisted in writing it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I note this involves a monthly season albeit on a card - don't these normally have to be purchased from a staffed station, and therefore the guard may have been correct in saying a ticket was needed?

Just a thought.

 

[John837102]

I note this involves a monthly season albeit on a card - don't these normally have to be purchased from a staffed station, and therefore the guard may have been correct in saying a ticket was needed?

Just a thought.

I don't believe so, maybe that's the case with other season tickets. I usually top my card up at the machines.

 

[gray1404]

If it was normally possible for the OP to purchase the ticket they wanted using the ticket machine at the station they started their journey from, then as the ticket machine at the station was out of service then the OP is entitled to buy their ticket at the first opportunity (from the full range of tickets). As Northern have not equipped their on train staff to do this despite their ticket machine being out of service, then the OP was entitled to purchase their ticket on arrival at Leeds. However, Northern deprived them of the opportunity. Their staff also failed to gather and grasp the full facts of the situation and have reported a passenger without good reason.

There really seems to be a culture at Leeds station (and Manchester Victoria) that anyone arriving without a ticket must be given either a penalty fare or be reported - regardless if the passenger has had opportunity to purchase or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't believe so, maybe that's the case with other season tickets. I usually top my card up at the machines.

Fair enough. If you can normally do it, you should be able to do it regardless of the machine working or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There really seems to be a culture at Leeds station (and Manchester Victoria) that anyone arriving without a ticket must be given either a penalty fare or be reported - regardless if the passenger has had opportunity to purchase or not.

Not only that, but the Prosecutions Department, who should be the checks and balances on this sort of situation, are abjectly failing to do this properly.

 

[John837102]

Your options here are as follows:

1. Do nothing (I am not recommending this but it is always an option).
2. Pay the amount they are asking and leave it there.
3. Pay the fee they are asking and then contact them afterwards offering mitigation and make a complaint*
4. You could respond to them enclosing a cheque for the amount but ask them to consider not depositing it due to mitigating factors you outline in an enclosed letter
5. Respond to them, not enclosing any payment, but setting out why you feel the matter should not go any further.

*If you do make a complaint you have the right to take your matter to the Rail Ombudsman if Northern's response is not satisfactory. You can also involve Transport Focus and your local MP.

If you do choose to write anything to Northern in response, feel free to draft a letter here first so you can be assisted in writing it.

The thing is that before receiving the letter for the fixed penalty notice I received a different letter requesting my details and mitigating factors to why I failed to purchase a ticket. I filled out my details with an explanation attached to the letter, pretty much describing what I've already said in my original post. A couple of days later I then got a fixed penalty notice which is why I strongly feel they did not even read my letter. I have now emailed the same letter and I'm waiting for a reply.

 

[gray1404]

Do you have a copy of the first letter you received and a copy of your reply that you can post here?

 

[Starmill]

Fair enough. If you can normally do it, you should be able to do it regardless of the machine working or not.

Northern stopped issuing these at ticket offices years ago

 

[John837102]

Do you have a copy of the first letter you received and a copy of your reply that you can post here?

That is the letter I received before the fixed penalty notice which I enclosed with this:

'Dear Sirs

I acknowledge the letter sent to me dated 04 February 2020, in regards to the conversation on 27 January 2020 at 09:43 by a member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of Railway Regulations.

At the arrival of the Frizinghall station heading towards Leeds Station the self-service ticket machine had been vandalised and therefore out of order. As I am a student I attain a 19-25 student M Card allowing me to purchase monthly passes. Due to the machine being out of order the purchase of my monthly fare of £93.60 was not possible. As the train arrived I explained the situation to the conductor and they had advised speaking to the ticket office at arrival at Leeds Train Station. Upon arrival, I explained the situation at the ticket officer who advised me to speak to a member of staff at the barriers so I can purchase the monthly fare from the self-service machine. As I began to walk towards the barriers two members of staff who overheard my conversation at the ticket office blocked me from walking any further and questioned why I didn’t have a valid ticket. I explained my situation once again informing that the self-service machine was out of order at Frizinghall Station and the ticket officer had informed me to speak to a member of staff at the barriers to purchase my monthly fare. The members of staff asked for my M-Card which I presented. They inspected it and had seen the monthly fare last expired on the 10th of December 2019. They questioned why I have not topped up the card since then and I had explained this was due to the Christmas term holidays from university therefore not needing to travel as frequent. The members of staff questioned if I had travelled since then and I had informed yes. The member of staff questioned why I hadn’t purchased a monthly fare when travelling after the 10th Dec 2019. I informed I had purchased return fares for the day only as the travel was only needed for that particular day and I did not foresee when I would next need a monthly fare as my university schedule had not been published yet. The staff queried if the self-service machine on the platform for Bradford Foster square on the opposite side of the train station was in working order. I informed I was unaware whether the self-service machine was in order as this is not the platform I was using and the train for Leeds station had arrived so I did not have the opportunity to check. The staff member informed me I would receive a letter in the post from Northern rail as a formality, for me to explain the situation in writing.
Using my MCard number you will be able to see I topped up the MCard straight away for the amount of £93.60. If the machine at Frizinghall station was in order, this situation would have been avoided.
The staff member at the train station was ignorant to understand I was not dodging a £4.50 fare however I was following the advice of the train conductor and the ticket officer of trying to purchase a monthly fare of £93.60.
Please dismiss any further action in relation to the alleged contravention of Railway Regulations.'

I must admit I did make a couple of ommissions deliberately, such as that the train conductor said I will need to buy a ticket because he cannot top my m-card up. But I included every detail in my original post.

 

[js1000]

There really seems to be a culture at Leeds station (and Manchester Victoria) that anyone arriving without a ticket must be given either a penalty fare or be reported - regardless if the passenger has had opportunity to purchase or not.

I would go along with this sadly. The culture instilled by Arriva is wrong - discretion appears to never be applied. But then the whole culture is completely wrong at Northern at all levels anyway so we shouldn't be surprised.

 

[Starmill]

It's a culture which is found in several places in the industry unfortunately. Something the company can pick on happens, regardless of the facts, then it's a case of "Tell me your name and address" and then letters threatening prosecution follow. Often it's irrelevant what the facts are too, they just press ahead with court action and you end up stuck defending yourself, which has to be done at your own cost. Oh, and good luck if you refuse to give your accurate name and address, or if the police are around (who will probably take their word for whatever has happened rather than making an independent assessment of the facts)

Of course, when you reasonably ask them to pay their bills they frequently refuse to. Helpfully for them, you can’t charge them penalty fees if they make errors in your Delay Repay claims. Nor can you threaten them with criminal prosecution if they point blank refuse to pay you money they owe you.

Sadly none of this chat about their toxic, anti-consumer culture is immediately helpful.

I'm sure you're right that discretion isn't applied - although in this case it's pretty clear discretion wasn't the answer. Selling the correct ticket was the answer. If that wasn't possible they should have simply been let out.

 

[30907]

As they are effectively proposing to prosecute you under RoRA for fare evasion, unless they have other evidence I cannot see how they would succeed in court.

 

[nlt]

May I suggest to the OP that you contact the Yorkshire Evening Post and the Bradford Telegraph and Argus. Also send an email to the Leeds councillor Carmel Harrison who has taken an interest in the activities of the revenue protection staff at Leeds station on behalf of constituents who use Woodlesford station. (It would probably be a good idea to pay the Penalty Fare, also make a complaint, and threaten to take them to the small claims court if you don't get your money back.)