Penalty fare rules where no Permit to Travel

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bakerstreet

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One of the stations I travel from has a PTT machine.

The station has recently had huge cuts to its ticket office opening hours.

I have an annual season for my regular journey on paper.

I sometimes - say 2-3 times per month - need to take a longer journey than my ticket and the PTT is ideal for this.

But very often it's left switched to 'Pay at ticket office' even when ticket office shut.

I've raised this with station staff but nothing's really changed.

My problem is part of journey is on the Tube. Tube staff and RPIs understand PTT, they dont or tend not to understand part paid fares to prove starting point.

Just seen a poster re penalty fares - it says if ticket office closed and you can't buy the ticket you want from a machine buy a PTT where available, but gives no other suggestion.

What's best- don't buy any ticket or extension and pay at destination (no protection)

Buy a ticket with proof of journey start but which in effect means I have two valid tickets for part of journey but looks like I'm travelling beyond destination. (also Tube staff won't understand this and would an RPI or guard be able to use it as part payment. )

Do something else?
 
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hairyhandedfool

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If you cannot use a PTT machine due to it not working, there are no TVMs and the ticket office is closed, you cannot be given a Penalty Fare (on National Rail, although I imagine a similar arrangement applies on the LU).

If part of your journey is by tube and the LUL office cannot issue rail fares, buy a tube ticket and, when you can, use it as part payment. if the office can sell national rail fares, or you can use a National Rail office at any point, you should buy the ticket you actually require.
 

IanXC

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Is that to say that you have a season for A to B, but sometimes have to travel onwards to C which involves staying on the train at B, and a subsequent tube journey?

I would have thought as the PTT machine was not available, the correct ticket should be sold at the station where your first National Rail leg ends. You may wish to take a picture of the unavailable PTT machine to show the situation should the need arise.
 

Clip

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First off thats just laziness from the Booking office staff for not flicking the switch for the PTT machine on.

Do they have a help point on the station at all? If so use that when this happens and let them know that it is off and that you cannot purchase a ticket. At least this should get the message out to the guards/RPIs that there may be ticketless travellers from this station.

Hopefully if this happens an awfull lot it will give the area manager a boot up the bum and in turn them to give the booking office staff a boot up the bum and to remember to do this ever so simple task.
 

bakerstreet

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Joined
29 Nov 2009
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433
Location
London
Is that to say that you have a season for A to B, but sometimes have to travel onwards to C which involves staying on the train at B, and a subsequent tube journey?

I would have thought as the PTT machine was not available, the correct ticket should be sold at the station where your first National Rail leg ends. You may wish to take a picture of the unavailable PTT machine to show the situation should the need arise.

Thanks yes that's exactly it - the confusion comes with the tube part of the journey in the middle where there is no NR booking office where I change from NR to tube - only an LUL and they're unable to help.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
I might also drop the rail company a line...
 
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You are fine on National Rail in this scenario but I would always suggest getting a ticket or swiping an Oyster at the transfer over to LUL even if this means a longer journey time. IMHO it remains ambiguous what your contractual position is on a through journey like this (ie. is LUL acting as agent of NR on a through journey, what is the 'destination' of your journey), but in practice the two railways are independent and have their own rules, enforcement so I would advise you not to force the point with them. LUL ticket inspectors will PF you in this situation and the avenues for appeal are pretty restricted.
 
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