Penalty Fare trains/compulsory ticket areas

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Oscar

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How can passengers find out which trains are designated Penalty Fare trains and where compulsory ticket areas are?
The Penalty Fares rules say:
7 Circumstances in which a penalty fare may not be
charged
7.1 Operators may only charge penalty fares to people who are:
a travelling by, present on or leaving a train which is named as
a penalty fares train by an approved penalty fares scheme;
or
b present in, or leaving, a compulsory ticket area which is
named as part of an approved penalty fares scheme.

Penalty Fares publications can be extremely misleading. FGW's publications for example refer to Penalty Fares stations but these cannot be compulsory ticket areas as other train companies such as Cross Country stop at some of these stations. These must be stations where some Penalty Fares trains run to/from. So I would imagine that Penalty Fares trains are trains which stop at two so-called Penalty Fares stations, that a compulsory ticket area is a station where all trains only run to Penalty Fares stations and that FGW use the term Penalty Fares stations for simplicity or to scare customers into thinking that Penalty Fares more widely than in reality. However, I cannot find any of this explicitly stated anywhere.
 
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wintonian

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The bylaws say:

26 (1)

“compulsory ticket area” means any area designated as such under a Penalty Fares
Scheme and identified by a notice to this effect. Persons who enter a compulsory
ticket area without being in possession of a valid ticket may be liable to pay a penalty
fare;

So we would need to start by looking at this list of designated stations.
 

yorkie

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Penalty Fares publications can be extremely misleading.
Very true.
FGW's publications for example refer to Penalty Fares stations but these cannot be compulsory ticket areas as other train companies such as Cross Country stop at some of these stations. These must be stations where some Penalty Fares trains run to/from.
Absolutely.

CTAs are very uncommon outside London. In fact the only ones mentioned on the National Rail site (Google search) are London Marylebone and Birmingham Snow Hill.

TfL like CTAs, and someone recently posted to say that Clapham Jn [[stn]CLJ[/stn]] has a CTA on the London Overground platforms, and I suspect other LO stations have CTAs too, and the National Rail website is probably not up-to-date in that respect.

A Penalty Fare station is merely a station where penalty fares apply for at least some of the services that operate there, but you can't read too much into it, as there may well be non-PF trains operating from such stations.

CTAs can be a pain for railtours. Also some people have CTAs on the paths outside their houses (see this thread) which is ridiculous in my opinion.
 

Brucey

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TfL like CTAs, and someone recently posted to say that Clapham Jn [[stn]CLJ[/stn]] has a CTA on the London Overground platforms, and I suspect other LO stations have CTAs too, and the National Rail website is probably not up-to-date in that respect.
I believe that may have been me. The CTA starts at the top of the stairs for the Overground platforms from the footbridge. The lift is also within the CTA. Not sure where it starts in the subway. It is marked very clearly with signs and a red line painted on the floor.

I'm not sure how CTAs are arranged at stations operated by LU/LOROL but served by other operators (e.g. Harrow & Wealdstone where I've seen no red lines).

Also unsure about stations like Stratford. There are no red lines going onto the DLR platforms. Not sure about the LU or NR platforms.
 
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Hmm. Barriers within barriers. That would be tricky, and expensive!

If a passenger has already passed through a barrier they will I assume have a ticket! Or could someone killing time, might wonder around onto another TOC's platform? Most people think of a station as one unit. Eg NR.
I was thinking on stations that no longer or never have operated ticket control.
 

wintonian

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Hmm. Barriers within barriers. That would be tricky, and expensive!

I don't know look at Waterloo East, all you have to do is remove one set of barriers and move then to within a few feet of another set. ;)

I'll take a look on Friday when I'm in London if I get chance remember as I normally use the over bridge so haven’t noticed this red line.

Are we saying that to be on the Overground platforms you need a ticket valid for a departure/ arrival from/ to thos platforms? So anyone with Clapham Junction to Woking ticket could be penalty fared for being on the wrong platform?
 

Brucey

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Are we saying that to be on the Overground platforms you need a ticket valid for a departure/ arrival from/ to thos platforms? So anyone with Clapham Junction to Woking ticket could be penalty fared for being on the wrong platform?

I was wondering this too. I had a CLJ to Havant ticket, so didn't enter. I also noted there are Oyster card readers on the platform, WITHIN the CTA :roll:
 

WelshBluebird

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With penalty fare stations, one example I find stupid is that apparently Oldfield Park is a penalty fare station (there is a sign at the station anyway), yet for most of the day there is no way to buy tickets before you board.
 

34D

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I was wondering this too. I had a CLJ to Havant ticket, so didn't enter. I also noted there are Oyster card readers on the platform, WITHIN the CTA :roll:

I'd say that your clapham-Havant ticket entitles you to use all station facilities appropriate to your class of ticket, which includes the benches on platform 2 (and 1 when it is created). This is my own opinion, and not fact.

The oyster readers on p2 are for people who have arrived at CLJ on a paper ticket from elsewhere, and going from CLJ by oyster payg - a relic of when the only line in south west London that accepted oyster was clapham jun-willesden.

Anyone entering CLJ from the street will touch at the main gateline.
 

wintonian

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Hang on a mo,

Last time I went to plt 1/2 to touch in on my Oyster I sat no CTA signs/ red line after using the over bridge.

How long has this red line and notices been in the subway for?
 

Clip

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I was wondering this too. I had a CLJ to Havant ticket, so didn't enter. I also noted there are Oyster card readers on the platform, WITHIN the CTA :roll:

Are they the pink readers?

Though that would make sense if people were changing trains atthe station and then using their oyster for onward travel.
 

wintonian

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Are they the pink readers?

Though that would make sense if people were changing trains atthe station and then using their oyster for onward travel.

Wimbledon has pink ones I belive but only Yellow ones at Clapham Junction.
 

Clip

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Wimbledon has pink ones I belive but only Yellow ones at Clapham Junction.

Makes sense if you come in on a paper ticket and want to change there for a service where you can use your oyster card.
 

Urban Gateline

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The (Yellow) Oyster readers on Platforms 1&2 are currently NOT working anyway so nobody can touch in and out there at the moment. However the Grant Rd exit is nearby and has Oyster validators just outside the entrance doors, as that exit is currently being refurbished, there are no ticket barriers operational there at the moment.

If the CTA rules were followed to the latter, then only someone with a ticket valid on LO services would be allowed onto Platforms 1&2 (or even past the red line if being pedantic!) In practice though there is rarely a LO revenue block at Clapham Junction so I doubt anyone would notice a passenger entering these areas with a "non-overground" ticket or no ticket at all!
 

wintonian

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Makes sense if you come in on a paper ticket and want to change there for a service where you can use your oyster card.

I think I have only ever once touced in a got a train from those platfroms, normaly choosing to go somewhere like Victoria instead.

The (Yellow) Oyster readers on Platforms 1&2 are currently NOT working anyway so nobody can touch in and out there at the moment. However the Grant Rd exit is nearby and has Oyster validators just outside the entrance doors, as that exit is currently being refurbished, there are no ticket barriers operational there at the moment.

Thanks for that usefull to know, however I thought Grant Road had only juist been built?
 

Urban Gateline

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Thanks for that usefull to know, however I thought Grant Road had only juist been built?

Grant Road is the back entrance to the station, it has been there for ages! The entrance that has recently been built is Brighton Yard, and that is now nearly a year old! :D
 

Oscar

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Would it make sense to write to the DfT asking for a list of Penalty Fares trains (and CTAs at the same time) to clear this matter up? I know that by looking at which trains stop at two Penalty Fares stations you can probably work out which trains are Penalty Fares trains but I don't feel this decisively settles the matter.
 

wintonian

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Would it make sense to write to the DfT asking for a list of Penalty Fares trains (and CTAs at the same time) to clear this matter up? I know that by looking at which trains stop at two Penalty Fares stations you can probably work out which trains are Penalty Fares trains but I don't feel this decisively settles the matter.



XC trains from Bournemouth stop stop at 7 penalty fares stations but XC don't operate a penalty fare scheme.
 

Oscar

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Yes, all right, companies which do not operate a Penalty Fares scheme obviously cannot be Penalty Fares trains however many "Penalty Fares stations" they stop at.
 

moonrakerz

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The rules for a CTA are clearly defined by DfT. However there are a number of TOCs who set up what are in effect CTAs but by not formalising them they then feel free to ignore the rules - in their favour of course.

I had an incident a couple of years back where I was refused access to the platform area - being told that I had to be in possession of a "valid ticket". When I attempted to buy a Platform Ticket I was told (very grumpily !) that they had been told not to sell them. After getting the Duty Manager out - I was eventually allowed through.

Following this I had a fairly lengthy postal discussion with the TOC (SWT) regarding what was happening at this station. Every letter I had from them was a masterpiece of evasion - they were clearly operating what was in effect a CTA, but this phrase was never mentioned in any of their letters, despite my asking repeatedly if there was a CTA in force at that station.
They were also giving me misinformation/telling lies by saying that this station was a PF station for all TOCs using it (one of the requirements for setting up a CTA) - when it wasn't. When I sent them a colour map of FGWs PF stations proving this - I got no response.

Eventually I went to DfT ! I was told that there were NO CTAs in SWT's area, which was presumably why SWT never mentioned that phrase to me. DfT said that they had received a lot of complaints about the policy at this station and had already sent someone down to ensure that the staff knew the rules - they were assured by SWT that the rules would be followed ! SWT then had obviously decided again that they rules no longer applied to them and they could re-instigate their de-facto CTA !!
DfT told me that they would again send someone to investigate - which I presume they did as I have had no further problems at this station.

The DfT rules are quite clear - you must be allowed access to the platforms, even in a CTA. They can charge you for a Platform Ticket ( I have no problems with that!) - BUT, they must not charge you if you are disabled or are accompanying/meeting a disabled person.
"Rail enthusiasts" are specifically mentioned as a category of person who must be granted entry.

My message is - stand your ground ! If you are refused entry, get the Duty Manager out, ask on what basis you are being denied entry.

For non CTAs the Bye-Laws state:

"(1)In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel"

1. How do they decide that you are going to:- "enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway" and then refuse entry ?
2. If you are NOT intending to:-"enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway" then you are clearly allowed to enter the platform area in a non CTA.
3. As the Law refers to "he/him" are females exempt ? :roll:
 

wintonian

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The rules for a CTA are clearly defined by DfT. However there are a number of TOCs who set up what are in effect CTAs but by not formalising them they then feel free to ignore the rules - in their favour of course.

I had an incident a couple of years back where I was refused access to the platform area - being told that I had to be in possession of a "valid ticket". When I attempted to buy a Platform Ticket I was told (very grumpily !) that they had been told not to sell them. After getting the Duty Manager out - I was eventually allowed through.

Following this I had a fairly lengthy postal discussion with the TOC (SWT) regarding what was happening at this station. Every letter I had from them was a masterpiece of evasion - they were clearly operating what was in effect a CTA, but this phrase was never mentioned in any of their letters, despite my asking repeatedly if there was a CTA in force at that station.
They were also giving me misinformation/telling lies by saying that this station was a PF station for all TOCs using it (one of the requirements for setting up a CTA) - when it wasn't. When I sent them a colour map of FGWs PF stations proving this - I got no response.

Eventually I went to DfT ! I was told that there were NO CTAs in SWT's area, which was presumably why SWT never mentioned that phrase to me. DfT said that they had received a lot of complaints about the policy at this station and had already sent someone down to ensure that the staff knew the rules - they were assured by SWT that the rules would be followed ! SWT then had obviously decided again that they rules no longer applied to them and they could re-instigate their de-facto CTA !!
DfT told me that they would again send someone to investigate - which I presume they did as I have had no further problems at this station.

The DfT rules are quite clear - you must be allowed access to the platforms, even in a CTA. They can charge you for a Platform Ticket ( I have no problems with that!) - BUT, they must not charge you if you are disabled or are accompanying/meeting a disabled person.
"Rail enthusiasts" are specifically mentioned as a category of person who must be granted entry.

My message is - stand your ground ! If you are refused entry, get the Duty Manager out, ask on what basis you are being denied entry.

For non CTAs the Bye-Laws state:

"(1)In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel"

1. How do they decide that you are going to:- "enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway" and then refuse entry ?
2. If you are NOT intending to:-"enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway" then you are clearly allowed to enter the platform area in a non CTA.
3. As the Law refers to "he/him" are females exempt ? :roll:

Clearly you are allowed to help dear Dorothy on to the train with her luggage find her seat, help her off with her coat, get her settled, kiss goodby and then pull the alarm because the train has left. :roll:

Well maybe not the last but you get the point.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....For non CTAs the Bye-Laws state:

"(1)In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel"

....

3. As the Law refers to "he/him" are females exempt ? :roll:

You quoted a byelaw but didn't read the definitions?

Railway Byelaws: 25. Definitions said:
....

(4) Gender
Unless the context requires to the contrary, words importing one gender shall include the other gender.
 

Urban Gateline

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Moonrakerz, whilst what you post is correct, sometimes it will depend on your attitude to staff. If you can state an honest intention of why you need access to the platforms momentarily then most staff will allow you through the barriers.

I don't know how you approached staff in your experience, however demanding access to the platforms and not stating a reason or just being difficult and/or rude can result in access being denied!
 
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