Penalty Fare trains/compulsory ticket areas

[wintonian]

You quoted a byelaw but didn't read the definitions?

I my seem pedantic here but:

What about Transgender are they exempt or are such definitions not really necessary anyway?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Surely they are legally one or the other? If not, which of the station facilities can they use?

 

[wintonian]

Surely they are legally one or the other? If not, which of the station facilities can they use?

I'm pretty sure they are a 'protected group' as defined in the Equality Act.

 

[LexyBoy]

I think you have to be legally either male or female, although a change of gender is fully recognised in law under the Gender Recognition Act. The Equality Act outlaws most forms of discrimination against transgender people, but I don't think that would extend to being classed as male or female for the purposes of law being considered "discrimination".

 

[moonrakerz]

You quoted a byelaw but didn't read the definitions?

Yes - because I quoted from an extract not the whole document

Moonrakerz, whilst what you post is correct, sometimes it will depend on your attitude to staff. If you can state an honest intention of why you need access to the platforms momentarily then most staff will allow you through the barriers.

I don't know how you approached staff in your experience, however demanding access to the platforms and not stating a reason or just being difficult and/or rude can result in access being denied!

I was extreme polite - my wife was with me. We had come to collect our daughter who had phoned us asking her to meet her as she was feeling unwell (normally, she would not have left the train at this station). I certainly did not DEMAND access to the platforms, I asked if we could get onto the platform in a quite normal tone of voice.
Could I refer you to the rules ? There is no requirement for me to state a reason for wanting entry "momentarily" (although I did, up front, in this case) - quite to the contrary, they should tell me why I am being refused entry. Access can be denied in an "emergency" but there didn't seem to be one happening at the time

I spoke to 3 members of staff.
1. The lady on the barrier, who refused us entry, I asked why, she told me. I said no more and went to the ticket window.
2. At the ticket window I asked, quite normally, for 2 platform tickets - this "gentleman" was decidedly grumpy ! NOT me !
3. The Duty Manager (I asked the lady on the barrier to get her after my abortive visit to the ticket window). We had a quite polite, almost amicable discussion, before she let us through.

I got the distinct impression that the three of them were not doing what they thought was correct/sensible - but that they were merely "obeying orders"!

This incident took place about 6 in the evening at the weekend and was presumably all about stopping fare dodging. Now - what DID annoy me was that on the following Tuesday I went to this station by train, arriving at about 11:00 and leaving at about 14:00. Tuesday is Market Day and there is a lot of tourist traffic as well. Both at my arrival and departure all the barriers were locked open and not a member of staff to be seen !

 

[Smethwickian]

The booking office staff at Smethwick Galton Bridge (SGB) usually propped up a blunt notice in the window when (ever more frequently) closed, stating simply that passengers should 'use the permit to travel machine'. There is no other TVM there but while LM operates penalty fares, Chiltern and ATW also stop there and do not. Nevertheless, the NRCoC imply that where any facility exists, whether TVM or permit to travel machine, passengers should pay something towards the journey they require and exchange/upgrade at the first opportunity.

However I had to complain and get a refund when an ATW conductor denied knowing anything about permits to travel and declined to deduct the amount I had paid from the ticket he sold me. ATW apologised and agreed the conductor should, of course, have accepted it as cash, but implied that as ATW does not operate penalty fares, I shouldn't have bothered with the permit to travel anyhow.

Since then, as it happens, the SGB machine has largely been "out of order" with a plastic bag over the top and the sign in the ticket window changed to one requesting passengers to pay on board or at their destination.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Could I refer you to the rules ? There is no requirement for me to state a reason for wanting entry "momentarily" (although I did, up front, in this case) - quite to the contrary, they should tell me why I am being refused entry. Access can be denied in an "emergency" but there didn't seem to be one happening at the time

Well a station platform is private property, not public, so the TOC and Network rail in this case have every right to refuse access to the platforms if they so wish.

Granted you had a valid reason for doing so, if I was the barrier staff dealing with you then I would have definitely allowed access!

This incident took place about 6 in the evening at the weekend and was presumably all about stopping fare dodging. Now - what DID annoy me was that on the following Tuesday I went to this station by train, arriving at about 11:00 and leaving at about 14:00. Tuesday is Market Day and there is a lot of tourist traffic as well. Both at my arrival and departure all the barriers were locked open and not a member of staff to be seen !

Are you refering to Waterloo barriers here? I doubt they were open and unmanned at 11:00 and 14:00 because there is a full time roster of manning the barriers there covering those times! Anyway what this has to do with your initial situation I don't know...

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Well a station platform is private property, not public, so the TOC and Network rail in this case have every right to refuse access to the platforms if they so wish.

If you think about it there is not so much public space as you would like to think. When you step out of your house you are on land owned by the Council. The highway you can pass and repass on foot vehicle etc (not loiter)
Beaches are private, local authority, or Crown /Dutchy land.
(Good money is made on parking, ice cream licences etc etc)

 

[Lampshade]

Are you refering to Waterloo barriers here? I doubt they were open and unmanned at 11:00 and 14:00 because there is a full time roster of manning the barriers there covering those times! Anyway what this has to do with your initial situation I don't know...

I believe it was Salisbury - I followed the story when he first mentioned it on here

 

[moonrakerz]

Well a station platform is private property, not public, so the TOC and Network rail in this case have every right to refuse access to the platforms if they so wish.

Indeed it is "private" property (which did belong to you and I !) but the "managers" of this property are bound by the DfT rules attached to this property when it was transferred. They can refuse access in certain situations - not just, "if they so wish".

Granted you had a valid reason for doing so, if I was the barrier staff dealing with you then I would have definitely allowed access!

You are so kind ! But - WOULD you ? if you had been told by your Manager NOT to ? As I said, I felt the staff were uncomfortable at doing what they were told to do.
The letters I had from SWT were extremely well crafted to say as little as possible in response to my complaint to them - This whole thing was undoubtedly initiated from head office of SWT and not by the poor customer facing staff at the station.
I didn't actually need "a valid reason" to enter, as you put it, anyway - even the Bye-laws say that. I was not intending to travel without a ticket so SWT have to let me in - they signed up to that when they took the franchise.

Are you refering to Waterloo barriers here? I doubt they were open and unmanned at 11:00 and 14:00 because there is a full time roster of manning the barriers there covering those times!

No, the station in question was Salisbury. Why do you assume that I was referring to Waterloo and therefore think that I am being less than honest in my comments ?

Anyway what this has to do with your initial situation I don't know...

It has EVERYTHING to do my "initial situation". One day they are carrying out actions which they are not allowed to do by the rules laid down by DfT, as I said, to prevent fare dodging (The Duty Manager actually admitted this during our conversation) - a couple of days later when the station is much, much busier they don't seem to give a damn about who goes in and out - with or without a ticket !

I fully support the TOCs in trying to reduce fare dodging, but when they start thinking they can do as they wish - to the inconvenience/annoyance/and cost (!) of passengers, they lose my vote !

 

[wintonian]

Oh Salisbury, well that makes sense, most of the time I seem to have problems even with perfectly valid tickets, even if it just a suspicious look when holding a FOSS rover, you also have to wait for ever before they are bothered to help you if you ticket doesn’t work the gates.

Even the berks at New Street seem to be more helpful.

 

[Oscar]

Would there be any potential issues with requesting a list of CTAs and Penalty Fares trains from the DfT since the TOC does not seem to be able to provide us with one? Would this be an FOI request?

 

[wintonian]

Would there be any potential issues with requesting a list of CTAs and Penalty Fares trains from the DfT since the TOC does not seem to be able to provide us with one? Would this be an FOI request?

Only that they may say its too much work to colate all the PF trains into a single document, unless they already have an actual list,

CTA's and PF stations should be fine.

Yes you can submit your FOI here.

You may use a pseudonym instead of your real name however they do not have to respond if they think it is a pseudonym, so I would avoid Dr Beeching, Sue De Nym etc.. you’ll have to be cleverer than that.

I would encourage anyone who has questions about something or is just curious about the state or a public body to submit an FOI, its a very useful tool to have.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Would there be any potential issues with requesting a list of CTAs and Penalty Fares trains from the DfT since the TOC does not seem to be able to provide us with one? Would this be an FOI request?

No, and yes.

 

[Urban Gateline]

You are so kind ! But - WOULD you ? if you had been told by your Manager NOT to ? As I said, I felt the staff were uncomfortable at doing what they were told to do.

Yes I would, station managers generally do not interfere with Revenue staff as they have little knowledge of our roles and the "rules"

The letters I had from SWT were extremely well crafted to say as little as possible in response to my complaint to them - This whole thing was undoubtedly initiated from head office of SWT and not by the poor customer facing staff at the station.

That is a shame that your query was not answered properly, no excuse for that.

I didn't actually need "a valid reason" to enter, as you put it, anyway - even the Bye-laws say that. I was not intending to travel without a ticket so SWT have to let me in - they signed up to that when they took the franchise.

Hmm I think you are just trying (but failing) to be clever here, how would you be able to prove your intention of not travelling without a valid ticket? What is to say that you will return?

Although you had honest intentions, many passengers do not, therefore frontline staff like me are always put under pressure to make quick decisions and judgements. I have made false judgements before when I let someone in to "see off" someone else but they never returned, hence why staff may not be as trusting as you would like!

No, the station in question was Salisbury. Why do you assume that I was referring to Waterloo and therefore think that I am being less than honest in my comments ?

Ah ok, you mentioned Waterloo to begin with, and nothing about Salisbury so how did you expect me or anyone else to know this! My reply was of course based on your initial post...

Salisbury ticket barriers are not always manned full time, mainly the peak times in the morning and evening, hence why 11:00 and 14:00 fall outside the peak times so there may not always be cover. You say it is busy due to the market day, maybe this is something for SWT to pick up on to alter staffing levels on that day!

I fully support the TOCs in trying to reduce fare dodging, but when they start thinking they can do as they wish - to the inconvenience/annoyance/and cost (!) of passengers, they lose my vote !

If you fully supported the reducing of fare dodging then you would understand better why access may not always be granted to platforms. You may also have pointed out to SWT that there is a lack of barrier cover at a busy time when the market is on, therefore a big potential revenue loss!

Your rant seems to be mainly based upon times which have upset you such as dealings with the Waterloo ticket office and seeing ticket barriers open when you have travelled, if you had obtained a platform ticket you may not have posted in such haste!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I don't know why Moonrakerz is mentioning intention so much, there is no need for intention in Byelaw 18. You commit an offence if you are on a train without a valid ticket unless one of the exceptions applies. It matters not one jot what your intention is.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I don't know why Moonrakerz is mentioning intention so much, there is no need for intention in Byelaw 18. You commit an offence if you are on a train without a valid ticket unless one of the exceptions applies. It matters not one jot what your intention is.

Spot on, and as for whether or not any person has free right of access to platforms etc. it is worth reading National Railways Byelaw 13.2 (2005)

CONTROL OF PREMISES

13. Unauthorised access and loitering

(1) No person shall enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a notice:
(i) prohibiting access; or
(ii) indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified category of person only, except where he belongs to that specified category.

(2) No person shall loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised person.

 

[exile]

The question isn't whether moonrakerz should have left the station when asked to do so but whether the staff member concerned was justified in asking. If I'm in a restaurant and asked to leave before finishing my meal then obviously I'm obliged to obey - but if the manager had no valid reason to ask me to leave then he's clearly in the wrong.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The question isn't whether moonrakerz should have left the station when asked to do so but whether the staff member concerned was justified in asking. If I'm in a restaurant and asked to leave before finishing my meal then obviously I'm obliged to obey - but if the manager had no valid reason to ask me to leave then he's clearly in the wrong.

The 'valid' reason is that provided by bylaw 13, posted by Fare Cop. I'm, not saying it's right, or commenting on a particular case, but it appears that the law allows railway staff to require people to remove themselves from railway property.

 

[Fare-Cop]

The 'valid' reason is that provided by bylaw 13, posted by Fare Cop. I'm, not saying it's right, or commenting on a particular case, but it appears that the law allows railway staff to require people to remove themselves from railway property.

Yes, that is correct.

I don't make any observation as to whether it is right or wrong either, but it is a strict liability matter.

Many very learned lawyers have remarked over many years, 'the Railway Byelaws are a pretty powerful legislation.'

 

[island]

Also some people have CTAs on the paths outside their houses (see this thread) which is ridiculous in my opinion.

That's a bit of a red herring. CTAs on Tramlink only apply to people who have just left a tram.

 

[Clip]

Yes I would, station managers generally do not interfere with Revenue staff as they have little knowledge of our roles and the "rules"

:cry::cry: Im hurt by that.

the problem I have is that we tell the staff they can let folk on the platform through the gates if they are helping someone or its someone who wants to come take pictures, but some staff think their station is their fifedom and they make the rules. In other words if they like the folks who ask they'll let them through if they dont they wont.

Annoys the life out of me.

 

[moonrakerz]

Yes I would, station managers generally do not interfere with Revenue staff as they have little knowledge of our roles and the "rules"

The Duty Manager in this case appeared to be "in charge" of the barrier staff - are barrier staff classed as "Revenue staff" ?

Hmm I think you are just trying (but failing) to be clever here, how would you be able to prove your intention of not travelling without a valid ticket?

I am not trying to be clever here, I feel that you are clutching at straws now, I do not have to prove that I am NOT about to do something illegal - the prosecuting authority have to prove that I AM. Innocent until proven guilty and all that ?

What is to say that you will return?

That my car was in the 20 min parking area outside What is to say that anyone with a valid ticket to the next stop isn't going to Edinburgh ?

Ah ok, you mentioned Waterloo to begin with, and nothing about Salisbury so how did you expect me or anyone else to know this! My reply was of course based on your initial post...

I DIDN'T mention Waterloo.....................I did mention (in a subsequent post) that it was Market Day - is Tuesday Market day in London ?

Your rant seems to be mainly based upon times which have upset you such as dealings with the Waterloo ticket office

Why would I deal with the Waterloo ticket Office when I was in Salisbury ? I haven't bought a ticket at Waterloo since the ACE was steam hauled.

if you had obtained a platform ticket you may not have posted in such haste!

I have already said that I did try to buy a platform ticket but was refused.........(As an aside to this, I later enquired at my local station (FGW) if they would sell me a platform ticket. I think the lady thought I was mad, as it is an open station. I then explained that I didn't actually want to buy one, just to find out if she could sell me one - she said she could )


You state that I am having a "rant" - far from it; I may be having a "moan", but my experience that night, I think, justified it - the man from DfT certainly thought so.
I am afraid to say that your responses seem to justify my "moaning" about some rail staff. I am an ordinary member of the public recounting my tale on here. You appear to be a rail employee:- so far, your responses have jumped to (incorrect) conclusions, ignored things that I have said, implied that my story was less than honest, accused me of saying things that I did not and shown a lack of understanding of the basic precepts of English Law. I shudder to think what my "granny" would do if confronted with this sort of approach if she was incorrectly suspected of some criminal activity by railway staff - I know what I would do - I would insist that BTP were called, at least they do have some understanding of the Law.

I rest my case.......................

 

[Urban Gateline]

You would call the BTP just because a member of staff refuses you access to the station platforms? Good luck with justifying wasting their time when they arrive! I rest my case too!


I certainly didn't doubt your story Moonrakerz and I misinterpreted your initial post as looking back I see you didn't mention a station name at all!

The reasoning behind my attitude is that you believe everyone should have free access to platforms and that staff must give a reason for refusal which I disagree with. If a non-paying passenger who is not helping someone disabled, requests access to the platforms, it is very much at the discretion of staff whether to grant such access and it is a priviledge rather than a right.

 

[John @ home]

I think it's time to stop digging, Urban Gateline. "non-paying passenger" was not a wise choice of words.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I think it's time to stop digging, Urban Gateline. "non-paying passenger" was not a wise choice of words.

Shall I spell it out for you then since you don't seem to understand? "non-paying passenger" = someone without a valid ticket, hence someone who does not need to be granted access to the platforms if they have no genuine reason.

Oh, and...don't tell me what to do or say thank you very much

 

[John @ home]

"non-paying passenger" = someone without a valid ticket

A person who is not attempting to travel is not a passenger.

 

[Urban Gateline]

A person who is not attempting to travel is not a passenger.

Would you prefer if I used the word customer? oops no that won't work either because a customer has to be doing business with the other party? Let's just call them a member of the public!

 

[MikeWh]

Would you prefer if I used the word customer? oops no that won't work either because a customer has to be doing business with the other party? Let's just call them a member of the public!

As it happens, member of the public is just fine in this case. They are neither a passenger nor a customer unless they are travelling. A non-paying passenger is someone who is breaking the law.

 

[34D]

Surely the easy solution here is for all barriered stations to sell platform tickets for 20p or whatever, and ensure that the local staff know precisely how to issue them? Ergo no awkward conversations with barrier staff, just show your ticket and enter.

As an aside, until the above happens, it may be worth finding the cheapest fare that allows travel at or via the barriered station. Something like Doncaster-Bentley which was around £1 would be ideal.