Penalty for expired railcard

[thelem]

Hi,

I was on the return leg of a FGW Brighton - Bristol journey today, with an off peak YP ticket I had bought for £28.40. When my ticket was checked after leaving Bristol the conductor (not particularly politely) pointed out that my railcard was out of date and proceeded to charge me £42.50 full single fare and kept my railcard and original ticket. When I questioned this and asked what my alternative were she wouldn't say any more than 'thats whats in the terms' and also refused to give me any form or receipt for the railcard and original ticket that she had taken.

I admit that my railcard was expired, but it's not exactly something that I check that often, and the penalty seems extremely high (I had originally paid £14.20 for the leg I was travelling, but was now being asked to pay an additional £42.50, or £56.70 in total).

Basically my questions are:

• Was there anything I could have done after the conductor pointed out my mistake, like get off at the next station and buy a railcard?
• Should she have taken my original ticket? I have now renewed my railcard, and am likely to go on a journey that it would have been valid for.
• Is there anything I can do now to get any of my money back?
• Is that somewhere that I can register a formal complaint about the size of this penalty? I guess FGW wouldn't be able to do anything as railcards are a national scheme.

Thanks in advance

 

[moonrakerz]

Sorry - but the Ts & Cs (which you have agreed to !) state:

"6. You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare."

I daresay that the ticket inspectors hear your explanation more often than teachers hear "the dog ate my homework" !

If they are willing to give you a third off all your tickets for a year for the princely sum of £24, it's not unreasonable for them to ask that your railcard is in date !

To answer your points:
No. You were in breach of your contract.
Probably. The Ts & Cs state you were , in effect, not in possession of any ticket.
No.
Why ? You broke the rules.

 

[jon0844]

You already know the answers don't you?

Your original ticket was invalid, so you must surrender it when asked. That's in the T&Cs.

You could have been given a ticket to the next station to get off and buy a new railcard, but I presume you'd have to ask for that - as the obvious thing is to give you a ticket to your destination.

There's nothing you can do to get your money back, but you might wish to ask why (at least if you buy your railcard online) you don't get an email alert to remind you that your ticket has almost expired.

What are you going to complain about? You didn't have a valid ticket, so you were made to pay the fare for a valid ticket. It seems you got away with the outbound journey, so consider yourself lucky!

 

[thelem]

If they are willing to give you a third off all your tickets for a year for the princely sum of £24, it's not unreasonable for them to ask that your railcard is in date !

Agreed, but it is unfair for them to charge me 4 times my original fare for a simple mistake. It would have been cheaper had I got on the train without a ticket at all!

It'll be £26 soon anyway...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You could have been given a ticket to the next station to get off and buy a new railcard, but I presume you'd have to ask for that - as the obvious thing is to give you a ticket to your destination.

I was told I couldn't buy a new railcard, although I didn't specifically mention getting off the train I did ask what I could do and it wasn't suggested.

You might wish to ask why (at least if you buy your railcard online) you don't get an email alert to remind you that your ticket has almost expired.

I did buy it online and was planning to mention that in a complaint to 'the railcard people'.

What are you going to complain about?

The size of the penalty, rather than the fact there was a penalty.

You didn't have a valid ticket, so you were made to pay the fare for a valid ticket. It seems you got away with the outbound journey, so consider yourself lucky!

If it had been spotted on the outbound journey would the inspector have taken both outbound and return parts of the ticket? If outbound only then I would have been in exactly the same situation as now, because I'd have had a railcard for the return.

 

[glynn80]

I was on the return leg of a FGW Brighton - Bristol journey today, with an off peak YP ticket I had bought for £28.40. When my ticket was checked after leaving Bristol the conductor (not particularly politely) pointed out that my railcard was out of date and proceeded to charge me £42.50 full single fare and kept my railcard and original ticket. When I questioned this and asked what my alternative were she wouldn't say any more than 'thats whats in the terms' and also refused to give me any form or receipt for the railcard and original ticket that she had taken.

I admit that my railcard was expired, but it's not exactly something that I check that often, and the penalty seems extremely high (I had originally paid £14.20 for the leg I was travelling, but was now being asked to pay an additional £42.50, or £56.70 in total).

OK, lets start from the beggining.

Firstly you were definitely in the wrong for having an out of date Railcard, regardless of whether it was in date when you purchased the tickets or travelled on the outward portion of your Off Peak Return.

The FRPP (the online Staff Fares Manual) states the following Important Conditions related to 16-25 Railcard use.

Important conditions

· If a Railcard cannot be produced at the time of purchase or at any ticket examination then the full undiscounted fare will be payable as if no ticket or Railcard were held. Subsequently, refunds must not be given on these undiscounted tickets but may be given on the unused part of the discounted ticket(s) – less the refund administration fee. No further or subsequent claims for refunds may be entertained.

· The Railcard is not valid if the holder boards any train without having a ticket when the ticket office was open. In this situation, the customer can only buy the full Anytime Single or Return on the train with no discount. Accompanying children pay the normal child fare. On pay trains or when the ticket office is closed customers can buy tickets on the train at the appropriate discounted fare. In Penalty Fares areas customers should purchase a permit to travel before boarding the train.

· A valid Railcard must be held for the full duration of both the outward and return portions of period return tickets.

· Normal excess rules apply to tickets purchased with a Railcard.

Now what it seems happened in this situation was that the ticket inspector followed the conditions that related to the first bullet point, as if no Railcard could be produced at the time of purchase or at any ticket examination. This is quite a subtle difference to what happened here as the OP did hold a Railcard and as long as the Railcard was also in date when the original tickets were purchased (the OP can answer that for us) then the actions taken should have been bullet points three and four.

If bullet points three and four were enacted what would have happened would have been an excess fare on the discounted Off Peak Return so that the fare paid would have been non discounted. I also do not believe the excess would have been for half the difference, I would say the whole ticket would need to be excessed as the Railcard was not valid for the entirety of the use of the ticket.

So considering these points the excess would be from £28.40 to £43.00, a £11.60 excess.

Also before anyone brings up the fact the OP could have been charged a penalty fare by not having a valid Railcard with his tickets- Brighton, where the OP joined the service is not included within FGW's Penalty Fare scheme.

• Was there anything I could have done after the conductor pointed out my mistake, like get off at the next station and buy a railcard?

There also would have been nothing you could have legally done to avoid the outcome of paying extra (whether or not the inspector charged the wrong amount is a separate issue), if you had of realised that the inspector was making a mistake then you could have asked her to call her retail manager for them to check the FRPP but because you didn't, there was nothing else you could have done at the time.

• Should she have taken my original ticket? I have now renewed my railcard, and am likely to go on a journey that it would have been valid for.

With regard to whether or not the ticket collector should have issued a receipt for the tickets removed, I myself was always under the impression that they should but I cannot find any reference to this anymore. Considering the ticket remains the property of the relevant Train Operating Company (Section A- National Rail Conditions of Carriage) then there is no real need for them to issue a receipt.

• Is that somewhere that I can register a formal complaint about the size of this penalty? I guess FGW wouldn't be able to do anything as railcards are a national scheme.

Finally there is no way to object to the size of these penalties other than to write to the DfT who approve every penalty fare scheme, however the size of the penalty are set out in government legislation and thus the TOCs do have a legal right to charge the amounts they do under the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994. This legislation stated the Penalty Fare to be £10.00 or twice the single fare (whichever greater) however it also gives the regulator (now the DfT) the authority to amend the rules set out in the 1994 regulations and that any subsequent amendment would have effect as if they were law.

 

[westcoaster]

It seems pretty straight forward to me, your YP card is out of date and is not valid for use( do not forget the YP card does not belong to you and can be withdrawn from you at any time), so the ticket you are traveling on is now not valid as you do not hold/ have a valid discount card, so the guard is right to issue you with the full single for the journey you are undertaking.

Just a couple of questions.

How out of date was the YP card.

Where did you get the ticket from, ticket office/ ticket machine?, if its the machine I'm sure the guard will take a lesser view off it as they may think you got it from there because it can't check expiry dates.

Was the yp card valid for the outward journey?

 

[jon0844]

Also, what was the penalty? Were you charged twice the fare, or just the standard fare?

I fail to see where you've been given any sort of penalty, as against a standard single fare ticket (you paid less for the original because you had the railcard AND because a return is cheaper than two singles - often as little as 10p different).

I do think it would be good if you could set up a reminder for when your card is due to expire, but you could just as easily set a reminder on your mobile, Gmail or whatever email service you use. Live and learn I suppose.

 

[thelem]

First I'd like to reiterate that I'm aware that I was in the wrong, and am quite happy to accept a proportionate penalty for the crime permitted. Several of the responses seem to be of the opinion that I broke the rules and therefore I deserve whatever penalty the TOC/DfT/Government decide, which in this case was to quadruple my fare. Would you still agree if the penalty in the rules was, say, a month in prison?

Thank's for everyone's responses, particularly glynn80.

Important conditions (trimmed to relevant)

(1) If a Railcard cannot be produced at the time of purchase or at any ticket examination then the full undiscounted fare will be payable as if no ticket or Railcard were held.
(3) A valid Railcard must be held for the full duration of both the outward and return portions of period return tickets.
(4) Normal excess rules apply to tickets purchased with a Railcard.

Now what it seems happened in this situation was that the ticket inspector followed the conditions that related to the first bullet point, as if no Railcard could be produced at the time of purchase or at any ticket examination. This is quite a subtle difference to what happened here as the OP did hold a Railcard and as long as the Railcard was also in date when the original tickets were purchased (the OP can answer that for us) then the actions taken should have been bullet points three and four.

The railcard was about 6 weeks out of date, and therefore not valid at the time of purchase. I probably bought the ticket from a machine, because there is usually a queue at Brighton ticket office, but now I wish I had bought it at a window and had my railcard checked.

If bullet points three and four were enacted what would have happened would have been an excess fare on the discounted Off Peak Return so that the fare paid would have been non discounted. I also do not believe the excess would have been for half the difference, I would say the whole ticket would need to be excessed as the Railcard was not valid for the entirety of the use of the ticket.

So considering these points the excess would be from £28.40 to £43.00, a £11.60 excess.

I wasn't indending to suggest that the excess should only have been on the return portion. An £11.60 charge seems fair to me in this situation. Alternatively upgrading my full ticket (both legs) to a non-railcard version also sounds fair, which would have been £14.20.

As we're looking at the wording of the rules, it is interesting to note that paragraph 3 refers to "a valid railcard" whereas paragraph 1 only refers to "a railcard". I assume this is just an oversight when writing the rules, with the implication that the railcard must be valid, but it could still do with clarifing.

The wording of point 3 is particularly interesting, as taken literally it is saying I cannot buy a Y-P open return less than one month before my railcard expires, even if I indend to return before the expiry of my railcard.

With regard to whether or not the ticket collector should have issued a receipt for the tickets removed, I myself was always under the impression that they should but I cannot find any reference to this anymore. Considering the ticket remains the property of the relevant Train Operating Company (Section A- National Rail Conditions of Carriage) then there is no real need for them to issue a receipt.

Even if there is no legal obligation it seems poor customer service. I was left feeling ambushed and with no way to challenge what had happened. I would have appreciated it if I had been given a receipt and instructions on where to get further information, which could easily be printed out on a blank ticket.

Finally there is no way to object to the size of these penalties other than to write to the DfT who approve every penalty fare scheme

Was this situation covered by a penalty fare scheme? My understanding of penalty fares is that you don't have to pay them immediately, but the inspector will take your name and address. You will also be given documentation and a right of appeal. I got none of that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also, what was the penalty? Were you charged twice the fare, or just the standard fare?

I fail to see where you've been given any sort of penalty, as against a standard single fare ticket (you paid less for the original because you had the railcard AND because a return is cheaper than two singles - often as little as 10p different).

I'm still eligible to renew my railcard, so had I done that before travelling my full journey would have cost £28.40 (not including the cost of the railcard).

Because of my mistake I was charged an extra £42.50 (the anytime single fare), which in my book is a penalty, although possibly not a "penalty fare".

 

[Ferret]

Think you're flogging a dead horse with this one to be honest fella - while I agree you've been dealt with harshly, the terms and conditions of both your Y-P and your ticket do make it quite clear what will happen if you don't produce a valid railcard. One to put down to experience I think....

 

[tony_mac]

The penalty actually isn't really enough, you only have to get caught less often than 1 time in 3 and you still save money. In some places with barriers, hardly anyone ever actually looks at the tickets and when they do railcards are only checked rarely.

I have seen a perfectly respectable-looking traveller pay £80+ for a new ticket, while claiming that their railcard was 'somewhere in their luggage'.
If people were only punished by the excess then the problem would be much worse.

If it had been out by a day or two, I would agree that it would seem harsh, but not for a matter of weeks; how can they be expected to determine who is trying to abuse the system and who has made a genuine mistake?

Just don't make the same mistake with your road tax or car insurance!

 

[jon0844]

Stop saying a penalty fare when it wasn't then!

You paid the single fare, without a discount and without the discount you would have got for buying a return. You could have asked for a return and paid maybe 10p or 20p more if you wanted to feel like you got better 'value for money'.

Alternatively, you could have asked for a ticket to the next station and got off to buy a new railcard, and a discounted single ticket. You didn't, and it's fair to say that the guard presumed you wanted a single to your destination - and you didn't argue otherwise (even though you presumably knew you could do it).

Now, I suppose the guard COULD have considered the excess - and if the railcard had expired by a day or two then it might have been a nice goodwill gesture (and at the same time, taking the railcard from you and perhaps issuing you with a receipt or something in case you were stopped later on). That didn't happen, but you can't really complain because that would not be normal practice. If the card had expired a lot longer than few days ago, there's definitely no argument. Question: How many other discounted journeys have you made when the card had expired? Consider how much you saved over that time!

Clearly you've seen what good value a YP railcard is (although they're hiking up the minimum fare soon, which is sad) but once it expired - it was no longer valid and that made your tickets invalid after the expiry date.

Your mistake, so just take it on the chin like a man. We all make mistakes and there's no point moaning at anyone but yourself - and that's rather pointless, so just skip a few drinks or some take away meals for the next few weeks and you'll be back to where you were.

 

[moonrakerz]

First I'd like to reiterate that I'm aware that I was in the wrong, and am quite happy to accept a proportionate penalty for the crime permitted. Several of the responses seem to be of the opinion that I broke the rules and therefore I deserve whatever penalty the TOC/DfT/Government decide, which in this case was to quadruple my fare. Would you still agree if the penalty in the rules was, say, a month in prison?

I can only assume that you think that a "proportionate penalty" is a piddling little amount, which you could meet out of your small change. But not for other "real" fare dodgers, of course.
A "Penalty" is a "Penalty" - if it doesn't hurt then it is not a "Penalty " !
If the penalty WAS a month in prison the number of people who "forgot" their Railcard would pretty soon drop to Zero !!!

 

[glynn80]

First I'd like to reiterate that I'm aware that I was in the wrong, and am quite happy to accept a proportionate penalty for the crime permitted. Several of the responses seem to be of the opinion that I broke the rules and therefore I deserve whatever penalty the TOC/DfT/Government decide, which in this case was to quadruple my fare. Would you still agree if the penalty in the rules was, say, a month in prison?

Thank's for everyone's responses, particularly glynn80.

The railcard was about 6 weeks out of date, and therefore not valid at the time of purchase. I probably bought the ticket from a machine, because there is usually a queue at Brighton ticket office, but now I wish I had bought it at a window and had my railcard checked.

6 weeks out of date! I can see why the inspector imposed the penalty given. I was writing my assessment of the situation based on what was originally written, which seemed to me, to suggest the railcard was valid on the outward portion and when the ticket was purchased but not on the return.

Because you purchased the ticket with an out of date railcard, the ticket was never valid for the travel you undertook.

Bullet Point 1 is then the bullet point that needs to be taken into account

· If a Railcard cannot be produced at the time of purchase or at any ticket examination then the full undiscounted fare will be payable as if no ticket or Railcard were held. Subsequently, refunds must not be given on these undiscounted tickets but may be given on the unused part of the discounted ticket(s) – less the refund administration fee. No further or subsequent claims for refunds may be entertained.

You could not have produced an in date Railcard at the time of purchase and neither could you at any subsequent ticket check. You were then charged the correct fare and you have no further recourse at all.

I wasn't indending to suggest that the excess should only have been on the return portion. An £11.60 charge seems fair to me in this situation. Alternatively upgrading my full ticket (both legs) to a non-railcard version also sounds fair, which would have been £14.20.

It is unfortunately not up to the public to decide what is fair and what isn't. The rules are clearly defined within the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

The relevant sections relating to this case are

2. Requirement to hold a ticket
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.
If you travel in a train:
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;

you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms unless either

22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identification in accordance with Condition 15. If you do not, you will be treated as having joined a train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If an Electronic Ticket cannot be displayed, you will be treated as if you were unable to hand over for inspection a valid ticket.

As we're looking at the wording of the rules, it is interesting to note that paragraph 3 refers to "a valid railcard" whereas paragraph 1 only refers to "a railcard". I assume this is just an oversight when writing the rules, with the implication that the railcard must be valid, but it could still do with clarifing.

Bullet Point 1 refers to a "Railcard" rather than a "valid Railcard" most likely through common sense, everyone realises that you cannot show any old Railcard and obtain and travel on, discounted tickets.

The conditions which do state the words "valid Railcard" are within the Railcard Terms and Conditions, that you would have signed up to when purchasing the Railcard in the first place.

6. You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare.
(http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/terms-and-conditions)

Even if there is no legal obligation it seems poor customer service. I was left feeling ambushed and with no way to challenge what had happened. I would have appreciated it if I had been given a receipt and instructions on where to get further information, which could easily be printed out on a blank ticket.

You can ask for their name (should be on their name badge) and you know which train service you boarded so it should be pretty easy for FGW to trace the inspector in question. But there really would be no need for you to as you were in the wrong 100% in this case.

There was no need to give you a receipt as your original ticket was invalid and thus the guard was confiscating so as to prevent further fraud, as they are allowed to do seeing as the ticket remains their property.

I am unsure what further information you wanted but any further information could have been obtained by writing or telephoning FGW customer services.

Was this situation covered by a penalty fare scheme? My understanding of penalty fares is that you don't have to pay them immediately, but the inspector will take your name and address. You will also be given documentation and a right of appeal. I got none of that.

Your understanding is incorrect.

The authorised collector may require that person to make a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which they would have had to pay for their journey if penalty fares had not applied. The person must be given 21 days to pay the rest of the penalty fare, starting on the day that penalty fare is charged. If the penalty fare is not paid in full immediately, it must be paid in any way that is set out in the notice referred to in rule 8.3.

So if you had of been in a Penalty Fares situation you would of had to of stumped up the minimum payment- the full single fare for the journey you were undertaking (which was what you were charged anyway) so you would of been no better off under the penalty fares situation seeing as an appeals process for your case, would just lead to a waste of your time, seeing as you were in the wrong.

I'm still eligible to renew my railcard, so had I done that before travelling my full journey would have cost £28.40 (not including the cost of the railcard).

Because of my mistake I was charged an extra £42.50 (the anytime single fare), which in my book is a penalty, although possibly not a "penalty fare".

It is a penalty yes, it is to deter fare evasion. If passengers are charged the full fare on board the train there will be a higher incentive for them to have a valid ticket before boarding.

Obviously it is annoying you have had to basically pay twice but it is a lesson learnt and I'm sure you'll always check when your Railcard is going to exprire.

 

[thelem]

6 weeks out of date! I can see why the inspector imposed the penalty given.

I don't use my railcard very often, probably only every 2-3 months, so 6 weeks isn't really that long.

Clearly the opinion here is that I am/might be an evil fare dodger and therefore deserve everything I get. I am of the opinion that I am a passenger who tried to do what was required (by buying the correct ticket), but made a mistake.

I guess it all comes down to what is more important - making your customer feel welcome, even when they make a mistake, or preventing all fare dodging. I don't think the correct balance has been struck in this case, but I'm surprised by the reaction here, especially considering the general objection to barriering stations that this site seems to have (something which I am in favour of, because it reduced fare dodging without disadvantaging genuine customers).

Luckily I was on a relatively short journey, but I hate to think what it would have cost had I been travelling to Scotland.

 

[scrapy]

The guard did the only thing they can do, to charge you full fare for the journey you are making. Guards do not have the option to excess a railcard discounted ticket to a full fare one. As stated earlier if a passenger doesn't have a valid railcard, with a discounted ticket they are considered not to have a ticket. Guards cannot just excess the ticket, as they have to put into the Advantix the reason for the excess eg. STD to 1st, over-distance or change of route, there is no option for excessing a railcard to a full fare ticket as the t's and c's state a new ticket should be sold.

Where it says in the t's and c's that 'normal excess rules apply to railcards' this is for example if a passenger wants to extend their ticket (overdistance) they still pay the discounted fare on the excess, but they must hold a valid railcard.

The guard was correct to withdraw the railcard, however we are told always to issue a reciept for a withdrawn ticket, which should have the ticket number and price/railcard number on it (not sure if this is an ATOC ruling though so FGW may not do the same).

 

[jon0844]

Clearly the opinion here is that I am/might be an evil fare dodger and therefore deserve everything I get.

Nobody thinks that at all. Nobody has been nasty to you - and have in fact just pointed out that you should have been charged full fare, or as it turns out (my bad for not reading all the subsequent posts) a penalty.

You've also been told to forget about it and put it down to your own forgetfulness. No major harm done. No criminal record and nobody on here judging you as a criminal at all.

As for gatelines, I think most people are in favour of them on here. You'd also find that, around here, the gates are set to say 'seek assistance' when someone passes through on a child ticket or a YP ticket - meaning you'll have your card checked out. I guess that, if you'd had this happen to you before you started your outbound journey, you would have had the expired card brought to your attention before you'd done anything wrong. Still, you can't complain about that because the gates don't HAVE to be set like that.

 

[scrapy]

You may have been hard done by, having the ticket confiscated and not getting a reciept as, you may have been able to get a refund as this ticket was technically unused, but as you had tried to use it for travel, the guard was also correct for withdrawing it. Any refund would have also been subject to a £5 or £10 refund fee. (not sure what FGW charge).

 

[mumrar]

Clearly the opinion here is that I am/might be an evil fare dodger and therefore deserve everything I get. I am of the opinion that I am a passenger who tried to do what was required (by buying the correct ticket), but made a mistake.

I guess it all comes down to what is more important - making your customer feel welcome, even when they make a mistake

Clearly you have signed to agree to all of the conditions of the 16-25 Railcard without reading them. You have stated in a legal contract that you are happy to abide by all these terms and conditions otherwise the card could not be issued

Six weeks is an excessive amount and I would have dealt with you in the same manner I'm afraid. Everyone has great reasons behind why they should not suffer the penalties. How many people would like their mortgage provider to ignore contract clauses now that the credit crunch bites. These people are having therir houses repossessed for pitys sake, and they can do nothing about it, but you want to bleat on about what a tragic injustice this is.

The bottom line is, it is you who is responsible for checking your railcard is valid before purchasing a ticket from an automatic machine, if you don't then you can expect the repurcussions to come knocking on your door.

Being as it was 6 weeks out of date, had you made any other journeys since it expired before you were " a passenger who tried to do what was required"???

 

[thelem]

Nobody thinks that at all. Nobody has been nasty to you.

Sorry. I'm not feeling very well, which I guess made me react worse both on the train and in this thread than I would normally.

Being as it was 6 weeks out of date, had you made any other journeys since it expired before you were " a passenger who tried to do what was required"???

No, this was my first journey since the rail card expired.

 

[yorkie]

Where did you get chinged?

If it was near Brighton, just get a SDS to wherever (e.g. Worthing is £4.50), then get a railcard and a railcard discounted ticket from there to Bristol (e.g. Worthing to Bristol is £25.75), obviously this means getting a later train but it may be worth it.

I can't believe they can take the ticket off you without issuing a receipt as I believed you had to be issued one but I don't know where this is documented.

 

[Nick W]

I would suggest that, if rules are to be rules, the train company should stand by them. In this case the correct thing would have been to issue a return ticket to cover both journeys and then allow the OP to claim a refund, minus admin fee, for the original ticket.

If this could not be done, the OP should have been left with the ticket, in order that he could send all tickets in the post and claim the fair settlement based on how much the correct return fair should have been, again minus an admin fee.

As mentioned, never forget your car tax should you ever set foot in a car!

 

[glynn80]

You may have been hard done by, having the ticket confiscated and not getting a reciept as, you may have been able to get a refund as this ticket was technically unused, but as you had tried to use it for travel, the guard was also correct for withdrawing it. Any refund would have also been subject to a £5 or £10 refund fee. (not sure what FGW charge).

Ticket wasn't unused as the OP had already travelled from Bristol to Brighton with the same ticket but the inspector either didn't come around on the train or didn't notice.

The OP was on the return leg when the incident occured so would have been entitled to no refund.

EDIT ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't believe they can take the ticket off you without issuing a receipt as I believed you had to be issued one but I don't know where this is documented.

I've found where it is documented now after a Google search, it is Condition 20 in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage

20. Withdrawal of tickets

If you do not comply in a material way with any Condition that applies to the use of a ticket, staff or agents of any Train Company may withdraw the ticket and you will be given a receipt. In the case of an Electronic Ticket, this may require you to either allow the staff or agent of the Train Company to delete the stored data, or demonstrate to them that you have done so in accordance with the conditions of use of that ticket.


So the guard was certainly in the wrong for not issuing a receipt, I suppose the OP could write in to complain but I doubt he would get anything in compensation, it would just alert FGW to inform their guards that in future they must issue a receipt.

 

[scrapy]

Condition 20 states that a ticket may be withdrawn. Is a railcard considered a ticket under this? or is it only the ticket that may be withdrawn?

If the railcard is allowed to be withdrawn, then can a guard withdraw a railcard from a person who attempts to buy a ticket onboard with a railcard, having passed an open ticket office as technically they have broken a condition?

 

[glynn80]

Condition 20 states that a ticket may be withdrawn. Is a railcard considered a ticket under this? or is it only the ticket that may be withdrawn?

If the railcard is allowed to be withdrawn, then can a guard withdraw a railcard from a person who attempts to buy a ticket onboard with a railcard, having passed an open ticket office as technically they have broken a condition?

The OP had both the Railcard and his ticket withdrawn.

The ticket was withdrawn under Condition 20 (NRCC) and should have had a receipt issued.

The Railcard is never your property and thus when it expires can be withdrawn with no receipt as shown with condition 11 of the 16-25 Railcard Terms & Conditions.

11. The Railcard does not become your property and if requested must be handed in to a representative of any Train Company.

There would be no reason to withdraw a Railcard when it was valid (unless fraud was suspected) and therefore there is no condition stating a receipt would need to be issued.

 

[moonrakerz]

Clearly the opinion here is that I am/might be an evil fare dodger and therefore deserve everything I get. I am of the opinion that I am a passenger who tried to do what was required (by buying the correct ticket), but made a mistake.

1. NO ONE has accused you of being "an evil fare dodger" - so you can wipe the crocodile tears from your eyes on that one.
2. You didn't buy the "correct ticket" ! You bought a discounted ticket without being in possession of a valid Railcard - what don't you understand about that ?
3. You "made a mistake" - self admission. The driver of your train could make a mistake and kill dozens of people ! An airline pilot could kill hundreds.
What makes you think that you are exempt from the consequences of your actions ?

Glynn80 has explained in great detail, with all the necessary references and links, why you were penalised. When you bought the Railcard YOU agreed to the imposition of these penalties if you did not comply with the Ts & Cs.

If you don't like them - get the bus - or walk !

 

[blacknight]

Hi,

I was on the return leg of a FGW Brighton - Bristol journey today, with an off peak YP ticket I had bought for £28.40. When my ticket was checked after leaving Bristol the conductor (not particularly politely) pointed out that my railcard was out of date and proceeded to charge me £42.50 full single fare and kept my railcard and original ticket. When I questioned this and asked what my alternative were she wouldn't say any more than 'thats whats in the terms' and also refused to give me any form or receipt for the railcard and original ticket that she had taken.

I admit that my railcard was expired, but it's not exactly something that I check that often, and the penalty seems extremely high (I had originally paid £14.20 for the leg I was travelling, but was now being asked to pay an additional £42.50, or £56.70 in total)
Basically my questions are:

• Was there anything I could have done after the conductor pointed out my mistake, like get off at the next station and buy a railcard?
• Should she have taken my original ticket? I have now renewed my railcard, and am likely to go on a journey that it would have been valid for.
• Is there anything I can do now to get any of my money back?
• Is that somewhere that I can register a formal complaint about the size of this penalty? I guess FGW wouldn't be able to do anything as railcards are a national scheme.

Thanks in advance

I would have refused to pay for new ticket then condutor could have completed a ticket irregularity report & forwarded it to FGW debit recovery department to pursue you & you could lodge an appeal to reach an agreement might cost a tenner admin charge but cheaper than a new ticket.
When it comes to railcards you have to ask was this attempted fraud or just an error, to me fraud is a travelling on railcard that dont belong to that person travelling or date on card as been altered or defaced in some way. In which case I would have done you on the spot. When it comes to a forgotten or out of date railcard have to use bit of comon sense what if you had been a little old lady think of the bad press it could bring company.

Still worth lodging a complaint on following grounds that a 2 tier system is in operation if you discovered your error prior to boarding you could have been excessed at station ticket office. Was it open at boarding station? Did you make a reasonable offer i.e to leave train to sort your railcard or offer to pay discount on ticket held. Can they justify 2 tier system to you. Rule 1 never part with your cash but give your name & address for them to chase any money owing.
You would not be able to get a refund on your original return ticket as outward portion had been used

This rule change was tried on NXEC last year & within a month or so company reverted to old rule of recovering the railcard discount part of ticket held.

Cannot believe you can not excess a ticket on advantix to recover 34% discount old SPORTIS could do this maybe case that conductor was not trained to do an excess so easy option bang out an open single.

 

[Ferret]

I can't agree that selling a whole new ticket was the 'easy option' - read through the previous posts directly quoting the NRCoC and you'll see that the Guard was doing his/her job correctly (apart from not issuing a receipt for the confiscated ticket).

 

[First class]

Look, at the end of the day, your ticket was invalid, not just your railcard.

You boarded a service without a valid ticket- correct?

Therefore you will be charged for the FULL open single, (or return, at your request).

I, like many other people on this forum, are struggling to see why you need to make a complaint. You were in the wrong, you got caught, because your ticket was invalid- you're fault.

If you'd managed to get away with this journey- you would have no doubt used it again-seeing as you haven't checked the date on it for 6weeks, which would have meant you had evaded the correct fare for god knows how much longer.

Buying from a TVM also arouses my suspicions, maybe not with you, but a lot of child fares and railcard discounted fares come from these machines, before the passenger dissapears through barriers not set to monitor railcards.

To me, 6 weeks out of date is Fraud. Indeed it is 'attempting to obtain services by deception'. A few days, I'd probably just PF/Sell new ticket and remind them to renew it, but 6 WEEKS out of date!!! I'd be thinking about PACE.

 

[moonrakerz]

I would have refused to pay for new ticket .................

Someone tried that on a train I was on recently - he was removed from the train at the next stop !

When it comes to railcards you have to ask was this attempted fraud or just an error, ..............................

You don't have to ask anything - doesn't matter if it was an error or fraud - it still broke the Ts & Cs

Still worth lodging a complaint on following grounds that a 2 tier system is in operation

Would I be a little cynical to say - "still worth" trying it on ? There is not a "2 tier system" for those who cannot be bothered to get the right ticket - there is one system and it is clearly defined - for those that want to obey it !


This passenger made a mistake - he paid the penalty, the details of which were made known to him when he purchased the original card.
Why should I, and other passengers subsidise his failure to check his card; or your suggestion that he should just try it on ?

 

[dan_atki]

I would have refused to pay for new ticket then condutor could have completed a ticket irregularity report & forwarded it to FGW debit recovery department to pursue you & you could lodge an appeal to reach an agreement might cost a tenner admin charge but cheaper than a new ticket.

Or alternatively, they may instigate legal action against the OP...

Mod note: I'm keeping an eye on this thread and any more of these 'you were in the wrong so just accept it' style comments will result in the thread being closed seeing as there are several of those already. Please only post if you have something worthwhile to add to the discussion.