Penalty for expired railcard

[hairyhandedfool]

....Cannot believe you can not excess a ticket on advantix to recover 34% discount old SPORTIS could do this maybe case that conductor was not trained to do an excess so easy option bang out an open single.

Its not that simple, the rules don't allow it.

The Op could try for a refund on the discounted ticket, but it would end up as a bill and is therefore pointless. The single ticket for the return journey cannot be refunded.

Refund on return portion only - Value of return portion (cost of return minus cost of single) minus admin fee (£5 unless FGW charge more) = 35p - £5 = bill of £4.65

Refund on both portions - Value of return ticket minus admin fee minus cost of ticket for outward portion = £28.40 - £5 -£42.50 = bill of £19.10

The only thing the OP can complain about is that he didn't get a receipt for his withdrawn ticket, hardly worth the effort in this case.

In my opinion it should be put down to experience and leave it at that.

 

[blacknight]

Look, at the end of the day, your ticket was invalid, not just your railcard.

You boarded a service without a valid ticket- correct?

Therefore you will be charged for the FULL open single, (or return, at your request).

Buying from a TVM also arouses my suspicions, maybe not with you, but a lot of child fares and railcard discounted fares come from these machines, before the passenger dissapears through barriers not set to monitor railcards.

To me, 6 weeks out of date is Fraud. Indeed it is 'attempting to obtain services by deception'. A few days, I'd probably just PF/Sell new ticket and remind them to renew it, but 6 WEEKS out of date!!! I'd be thinking about PACE.

OTT Take your company chips out & think for a minute return portion of ticket is valid 1 calender month so you could buy a return ticket with railcard on the last day railcard is valid & the ticket would be valid for next month regardless of date on railcard.

So offence is a slightly out of date railcard so said is this person is to be treated the same as person travelling without ticket by charging full open fare except first person as been in effect charged twice for offence whereas the hardened fare dodger is charged once if you can trace them from details given.
Attitudes like this dont win hearts & minds of passengers & make TTI look like traffic wardens in attitude you have to be able to do job with a degree of fairness & common sense.

Would also raise question of commission on onboard ticket sales to supplement wages of a conductor as 5% of open fare might just sway your view as to what ticket to issue in this position.

Ticket fraud from TVM is where no railcard is held at all & passenger takes advantage of discounts & season tickets offered by machine, a 21 century honesty box which TOCs are responsible for in their haste to automise the issue & checking of tickets i.e automated gating system which no matter how technecally advanced can ask can I see your railcard or compare photocard. TOCs are prepared to risk loss of 34% of revenue to save on wages bill by cutting staff.

 

[dan_atki]

return portion of ticket is valid 1 calender month so you could buy a return ticket with railcard on the last day railcard is valid & the ticket would be valid for next month regardless of date on railcard.

Not quite so - the railcard terms and conditions state the railcard must be valid for when you wish to travel. Just because a ticket was purchased whilst the railcard was valid doesn't mean the railcard will go over its validity to accommodate the ticket.

Two examples:

1) Railcard expires 30th April say. An Off-Peak Return was purchased on the 20th April (so return portion 'valid' until 19th May). If you do not wish to renew your railcard in that time then the return would have to be used by the 30th April or not at all.

2) Again, railcard expires on 30th April, and the same ticket was purchased, this time on 30th April. If no renewal of railcard was wanted before 29th May then the return would have to be used on the 30th April or not at all.

 

[blacknight]

Someone tried that on a train I was on recently - he was removed from the train at the next stop !


Would I be a little cynical to say - "still worth" trying it on ? There is not a "2 tier system" for those who cannot be bothered to get the right ticket - there is one system and it is clearly defined - for those that want to obey it !


This passenger made a mistake - he paid the penalty, the details of which were made known to him when he purchased the original card.

Removed from train problem solved go to ticket office & then either renew railcard or pay excess on discounted portion of ticket held.
Likewise if there had been a manned barrier person would have been asked for their railcard & on finding it out of date be directed to ticket office to carry out the above choices. That to me is a 2 tier system in operation.

 

[glynn80]

Not quite so - the railcard terms and conditions state the railcard must be valid for when you wish to travel. Just because a ticket was purchased whilst the railcard was valid doesn't mean the railcard will go over its validity to accommodate the ticket.

Two examples:

1) Railcard expires 30th April say. An Off-Peak Return was purchased on the 20th April (so return portion 'valid' until 19th May). If you do not wish to renew your railcard in that time then the return would have to be used by the 30th April or not at all.

2) Again, railcard expires on 30th April, and the same ticket was purchased, this time on 30th April. If no renewal of railcard was wanted before 29th May then the return would have to be used on the 30th April or not at all.

Actually the rules are even harsher than this and in the FRPP the rules state that "a valid Railcard must be held for the full duration of both the outward and return portions of period return tickets".

So in answer to

OTT Take your company chips out & think for a minute return portion of ticket is valid 1 calender month so you could buy a return ticket with railcard on the last day railcard is valid & the ticket would be valid for next month regardless of date on railcard.

No you would not even be sold the ticket in the first place from a ticket office. If it was purchased from a WebTIS or a TVM, then the Railcard would need to be valid for the entire duration and it is up to the passenger to adhere to this, the conditions of the ticket can be found on both the TVM and the WebTIS's to this effect.

 

[dan_atki]

Actually the rules are even harsher than this and in the FRPP the rules state that "a valid Railcard must be held for the full duration of both the outward and return portions of period return tickets".

Gee as harsh as that eh? Still, it's there to cover the backs of the TOCs so is understandable.

Thanks for the correction!

 

[EM2]

Likewise if there had been a manned barrier person would have been asked for their railcard & on finding it out of date be directed to ticket office to carry out the above choices. That to me is a 2 tier system in operation.

Because at that point, no journey has yet been made, therefore the OP would still have been able to rectify the error.
However, if he'd been barrier-checked at Bristol (having already made the outbound journey), then the outcome would almost certainly have been the same as it was on the train.

 

[moonrakerz]

Removed from train problem solved go to ticket office & then either renew railcard or pay excess on discounted portion of ticket held.
Likewise if there had been a manned barrier person would have been asked for their railcard & on finding it out of date be directed to ticket office to carry out the above choices. That to me is a 2 tier system in operation.

Problem NOT solved !
If you are deliberately traveling without a valid ticket - no problem, just offer to buy one when you are caught !
A really efficient way to deter fare dodgers.

Staff on a manned barrier have certainly never asked to see my railcard and I haven't seen them ask anyone else either.


PS: (The "gentleman" I previously referred to, who was removed from the train, had a Transport Policeman waiting for him on the platform - that probably solved someone's problem - but not his !)

 

[blacknight]

Because at that point, no journey has yet been made, therefore the OP would still have been able to rectify the error.
However, if he'd been barrier-checked at Bristol (having already made the outbound journey), then the outcome would almost certainly have been the same as it was on the train.

So by having unmanned open stations it could be said that TOCs are operarating an entrapment operation by not checking tickets at the station but then stinging passengers for a full fare during onboard checks for minor infringment of T & C. Are we here to help our passengers or get their backs up with rules like these with no give or leaway, I know we are in recession but this looks like a nice little earner for cash strapped TOCs travel once pay twice.
Someone once said Rules are there for the obedience of fools & guidence of wise men
In that case theres little insentive to buy ticket prior to travel but take a chance on being gripped by TTI least your sure you only pay once.
I look forward to reading story in Sun soon how a member of our Armed Forces will have been treated by our modern TOCs on return from active operations can be rather difficult to get forces railcard renewed on the front line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Problem NOT solved !
If you are deliberately traveling without a valid ticket - no problem, just offer to buy one when you are caught !
A really efficient way to deter fare dodgers.

Staff on a manned barrier have certainly never asked to see my railcard and I haven't seen them ask anyone else either.


PS: (The "gentleman" I previously referred to, who was removed from the train, had a Transport Policeman waiting for him on the platform - that probably solved someone's problem - but not his !)

If staff on a manned barrier are not asking to see railcards they aint doing there job properly could you name & shame the station where this is taking place TOC might be interested to know they are employing staff who are a wasting company time & getting paid for it TOC may want to save some money cannot abide staff being paid for standing around passing invalid tickets.
To me a fare dodger is someone travelling without ticket not someone who as transgressed T & C by a few days do we really treat both alike. Seems a little harsh to me what for instant were it your mum or gran would you feel the same?

 

[tony_mac]

As far as I can remember, it's been the same rules for at least 20 years, it's hardly some new evil money-making scam. As a traveller, I really don't see what the problem is - if you are travelling with an invalid ticket then you have to expect some sort of penalty if you are caught. I would rather have that than just let everyone get away with it.

An out of date railcard could have been used many times in 6 weeks, saving an awful lot more money than one full single fare cost. I know that it didn't happen in this case, but how are the train staff supposed to tell? He had an honest face? If it had been a day or two, then yes, some leniency would have been nice.

I don't expect to have my ticket checked before I board a train, just in case I have 'forgotten' to get a valid ticket - I know that's my responsibility. I don't expect the police to come round and check my car tyres every day so that I don't accidentally drive it illegally.

Open stations are hardly a new invention designed to trap people into having to pay more money!

I have only had my railcard checked prior to boarding at Euston. When you have several hundred people all trying to get through the barriers at the same time, anything that speeds up that process is better for the passengers.

I do agree though, that the railcard system is something of an 'honesty' one, I was surprised by how rarely mine is actually checked. If I didn't have one, I would have been much better off just buying the tickets anyway and paying the occasional penalty.

 

[dan_atki]

In that case theres little insentive to buy ticket prior to travel but take a chance on being gripped by TTI least your sure you only pay once.

A court summons and criminal charges brought against you is incentive enough, I think.

 

[EM2]

So by having unmanned open stations it could be said that TOCs are operarating an entrapment operation by not checking tickets at the station but then stinging passengers for a full fare during onboard checks for minor infringment of T & C. Are we here to help our passengers or get their backs up with rules like these with no give or leaway
...
In that case theres little insentive to buy ticket prior to travel but take a chance on being gripped by TTI least your sure you only pay once.

It is the passenger's responsibilty to have the correct ticket and any supporting valid Railcard before they board. If they are unable to do so (because the ticket office is closed, for example), then it is their responsibility to find the Train Manager/RPI on the train to purchase a ticket. At the risk of getting this locked by dan_atki this has been covered a number of times in various threads.
Travelling with a Railcard six weeks out of date is not a minor infringement of T&C . Where do you draw the line? Eight weeks, twenty weeks, fifty weeks?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To me a fare dodger is someone travelling without ticket not someone who as transgressed T & C by a few days do we really treat both alike. Seems a little harsh to me what for instant were it your mum or gran would you feel the same?

Yes, I would. Because my Mum and my Gran are sensible enough to check that all their Railcards and tickets are valid, as would I.
And to add, if you travel with EMT at St Pancras, your Railcard will be checked, and I've seen customers refused travel for not having it.

 

[clagmonster]

Actually the rules are even harsher than this and in the FRPP the rules state that "a valid Railcard must be held for the full duration of both the outward and return portions of period return tickets".

Is this stated anywhere publicly visible, as if not I don't see how, for example I can't be sold a saver 27 days before the validity of my railcard ends. Is it possible for a saver to be sold in these circumstances, but with the end of validity the same as the railcard expiry date? Also, if this rule is not publicly viewable, what happens if I buy a saver from anywhere other than a booking office in these circumstances? Is it then invalid, even if I use both portions prior to the expiry of my railcard?

 

[Mojo]

I have definately come across passengers both on board the train and at the station who have bought excesses to an Off-peak ticket where they don't have a Railcard. I certaintly remember one guy who had to buy an excess for £23.00 (from the booking office) and I remember telling him that he should've bought a Railcard instead if he is planning on making another journey in the year!

Am I basically getting the gist of things that the OP's complaint is that he had to buy a whole new ticket instead of just an excess from the SVR (with Y-P) to SVR (without Y-P).

 

[mathmo]

Am I basically getting the gist of things that the OP's complaint is that he had to buy a whole new ticket instead of just an excess from the SVR (with Y-P) to SVR (without Y-P).

I think that is pretty much the OP's complaint. But that would hardly be a good way to do things - then anyone could buy a Y-P ticket, with or without a railcard, in the knowledge that they would either save money or get caught and have to pay the correct fare - no loss either way. It is necessary that the penalty is more than the excess.

As an example, my railcard has never been checked when travelling Cambridge - Kings Cross (since I buy from a TVM and it's all barriered and DOO, with rarely any RPIs): if you didn't know there was the likelihood of a substantial penalty then everyone would just buy railcard tickets!

 

[thelem]

Am I basically getting the gist of things that the OP's complaint is that he had to buy a whole new ticket instead of just an excess from the SVR (with Y-P) to SVR (without Y-P).

Yes - that is exactly my complaint. I wasn't even allowed to use my confiscated ticket as credit towards the new ticket (which would have been more than just the extra third of the full fare, because of the discounts for offpeak and return on the original ticket).

I'm not interested in 'those are the rules, you must follow them' posts. I'd ultimately like to get the rules changed, even if it doesn't benefit me financially.

Thinking about it further, maybe the fairest thing would have been if the inspector had been able to sell me a new railcard (subject to eligibility of course) that started from the expiry of my old railcard. That would also cover any other journeys taken on the expired railcard (which obviously the inspector is unaware of). I could be issued a temporary railcard on the train, valid for that day only, which I could then exchange at a ticket office for a normal railcard.

Can anyone think of any scenarios where the above would benefit people deliberately fare-dodging?

BTW I was travelling with luggage, so used the manned gates at both Brighton and Bristol. Combined with the inspector on my outbound leg that is 4 members of staff who failed to spot the expired railcard. (Before anyone says it, yes, I know that doesn't reduce my own responsibility)

 

[glynn80]

Yes - that is exactly my complaint. I wasn't even allowed to use my confiscated ticket as credit towards the new ticket (which would have been more than just the extra third of the full fare, because of the discounts for offpeak and return on the original ticket).

You were not allowed to use your confiscated ticket as credit towards your new ticket as you were not entitled to have the ticket in the first place and had already travelled invalidly on the outward portion of this ticket, for these reasons thus no refund would have been allocated to such a ticket.

If you were allowed to use your invalid ticket, that you were not entitled to have in the first place as credit towards your new ticket, there would be no incentive for anyone to purchase the full adult fare ticket as anyone could purchase a Railcard discounted fare- if they aren't checked they get a ticket considerably cheaper than it would if been, if they are checked they pay what they would of done anyway. It is a method to combat fare evasion.

I'm not interested in 'those are the rules, you must follow them' posts. I'd ultimately like to get the rules changed, even if it doesn't benefit me financially.

I think it very clear that the "unfairness" you claim is in financial terms i.e. you have had to pay for two tickets, so it is pretty plain to see that the rule changes you are trying to enact are to financially benefit you and anyone else who travels on Railcards that are either non-existent or out of date.

Thinking about it further, maybe the fairest thing would have been if the inspector had been able to sell me a new railcard (subject to eligibility of course) that started from the expiry of my old railcard. That would also cover any other journeys taken on the expired railcard (which obviously the inspector is unaware of). I could be issued a temporary railcard on the train, valid for that day only, which I could then exchange at a ticket office for a normal railcard.

On Train Ticket Inspectors do not have the ability to sell Railcards on their Avantix Machines. They do not carry Railcard Photocards or Railcard Ticket Stock. They also do not have the time to spend issuing Railcards to passengers while also carrying out their other duties. Even ticket offices do not have the ability to sell retrospective Railcards which you are asking for above.

Temporary Railcards do not exist either- if they did exist and you were to be given a temporary railcard which you could exchange at a ticket office for a normal Railcard, how can the guard be certain you would actually go to the ticket office and exchange it for a proper Railcard and not just exit the station. Fare evaders could just continue to ask for Temporary Railcards on-train and never actually purchase a real one.

Can anyone think of any scenarios where the above would benefit people deliberately fare-dodging?.

Explained in my answers above.

 

[tony_mac]

Thinking about it further, maybe the fairest thing would have been if the inspector had been able to sell me a new railcard (subject to eligibility of course) that started from the expiry of my old railcard. That would also cover any other journeys taken on the expired railcard (which obviously the inspector is unaware of). I could be issued a temporary railcard on the train, valid for that day only, which I could then exchange at a ticket office for a normal railcard.

Can anyone think of any scenarios where the above would benefit people deliberately fare-dodging?

While that sounds fairly reasonable to me (although still open to abuse), it's quite a lot of hassle for the train staff to carry the forms around, to check i.d. etc.
As it would only be of any use for people who forget they have an expired railcard, it probably wouldn't be used terribly often - and the simple solution is for the passenger to check their railcard when they buy a ticket!

Perhaps another solution would be to require you to enter your railcard number when buying tickets either at a machine or online. But then, a lot of people suffer added inconvenience to save the odd forgetful person.

 

[thelem]

glynn80 - please re-read my post. I am not talking about what is allowed under current rules, rather what people would consider fair, prevents fare dodging but do not disadvantage customers who thought they had paid the correct fare.

I was proposing that the customer would pay the full price for their railcard (£24/£26) on the train, and be issued with a new "temporary railcard" (I know these don't exist at the moment) that was just a special ticket printed on standard stock - no photo etc. The customer could then apply for a proper railcard at the destination, using the temporary railcard as payment. All the forms would remain at the stations, all that would be needed would be a new option on the Avantix machines and the ability to sell railcards for less than one year at the stations.

 

[yorkie]

Look, at the end of the day, your ticket was invalid, not just your railcard.

You boarded a service without a valid ticket- correct?

Therefore you will be charged for the FULL open single, (or return, at your request).

If the ticket is not valid but can be excessed then you'd be excessed. It's too simplistic to say "If your ticket isn't valid you will be charged full fare"

I, like many other people on this forum, are struggling to see why you need to make a complaint. You were in the wrong, you got caught, because your ticket was invalid- you're fault.

I think he's trying to say he should be excessed in this case. But the rules don't allow an excess for this type of invalidity

Buying from a TVM also arouses my suspicions, maybe not with you, but a lot of child fares and railcard discounted fares come from these machines, before the passenger dissapears through barriers not set to monitor railcards.

I don't think it's valid to be suspicious because a machine was used. A lot of people use machines these days!

To me, 6 weeks out of date is Fraud. Indeed it is 'attempting to obtain services by deception'. A few days, I'd probably just PF/Sell new ticket and remind them to renew it, but 6 WEEKS out of date!!! I'd be thinking about PACE.

It isn't fraud, and would never ever have a chance of being proven as fraud in court.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

While that sounds fairly reasonable to me (although still open to abuse), it's quite a lot of hassle for the train staff to carry the forms around, to check i.d. etc.
As it would only be of any use for people who forget they have an expired railcard, it probably wouldn't be used terribly often - and the simple solution is for the passenger to check their railcard when they buy a ticket!

Good point.

Perhaps the fairest thing would be something like:
1) excess to the appropriate fare without a railcard (off peak to off peak etc)
2) charge an extra fee of, say half the railcard price, £12.

That's quite an incentive not to travel with an out of date railcard - as you not only pay the difference but also get stung for over a tenner. No-one would do that deliberately.

What they can't do is just excess to the non-railcard fare as then there is no incentive against people buying discounted tickets and using them anyway.

But a penalty of £12 is 6 months railcard validity. That sounds a fair penalty (in addition to the extra charge for not having a valid railcard).

But charging potentially £100 or more for a whole new ticket in addition to what the customer paid initially is just ridiculous and unfair. Someone making a genuine mistake on a long distance journey once could get stung for a huge amount while someone else repeating the same short journey every time only gets to pay a couple of quid. Surely a £12 flat fee + excess would be a lot fairer and be a consistent deterrent?

 

[tony_mac]

But a penalty of £12 is 6 months railcard validity. That sounds a fair penalty (in addition to the extra charge for not having a valid railcard).

But charging potentially £100 or more for a whole new ticket in addition to what the customer paid initially is just ridiculous and unfair.

But if the customer is saving £35+ per time by buying a discounted fare, the £12 penalty when they get caught isn't going to bother them too much -unless they get caught very often.

Although it does seem reasonable to treat expired railcards differently to no railcards (within reason), but then people who forget to take their railcard will be in the same position anyway.

 

[thelem]

What is the customer saving?

Are they saving £35 per journey (discount off ticket), or are they saving £24 per year (cost of railcard)? I'd argue it is the latter (providing they are still eligible) and therefore the penalty should be proportionate to that.

 

[tony_mac]

yes, but that's assuming that they are eligible - which can be difficult or impossible to check on the train.

 

[thelem]

So charge them full fare with the option of getting a refund if they can later prove eligiblity.

 

[glynn80]

glynn80 - please re-read my post. I am not talking about what is allowed under current rules, rather what people would consider fair, prevents fare dodging but do not disadvantage customers who thought they had paid the correct fare.

Yes, and I was pointing out the flaws in your proposals as they currently stand.

Where do you draw the line from someone who is "fare dodging" and someone who thought they had paid the correct fare? Nearly everybody on this forum has been of the opinion that using a Railcard that is 6 weeks out of date, is pretty hard to accept as a simple mistake and I am pretty sure the guard was of the same opinion.

I was proposing that the customer would pay the full price for their railcard (£24/£26) on the train, and be issued with a new "temporary railcard" (I know these don't exist at the moment) that was just a special ticket printed on standard stock - no photo etc. The customer could then apply for a proper railcard at the destination, using the temporary railcard as payment. All the forms would remain at the stations, all that would be needed would be a new option on the Avantix machines and the ability to sell railcards for less than one year at the stations.

While this could in theory work, the guard on the train would have to check your eligibility for this new Railcard- they would need to suitable proof you are entitled to the Railcard and someone who believed their Railcard to be in date is pretty unlikely to be carrying everything needed to issue the new Railcard (especially mature students). Not checking would result in the TOC taking your money which may potentially have to be refunded. If you took your voucher to a ticket office run by a seperate TOC this creates problems in administrating the refund and you would be likely to have to wait 14 days for the refund to arrive.

 

[yorkie]

But if the customer is saving £35+ per time by buying a discounted fare, the £12 penalty when they get caught isn't going to bother them too much -unless they get caught very often..

If they save £35 they'd be charged £35+£12 = £47. Sounds fair to me. That would mean they'd be on a £100+ ticket so doing quite a long journey. The chances of completing a journey of that length both ways without a check of the railcard seems rather less likely than someone doing a regular journey protected only by barriers surely.

So charge them full fare with the option of getting a refund if they can later prove eligiblity.

Yes that would be another option.

I think the issue is that it seems unfair to charge an extortionately high fare AND keep the money for the 'invalid' fare and not allow a refund.

I'm not saying people should only pay the difference - clearly there must be some penalty. But it seems daft to make the penalty so draconian, especially when the TOCs lie and cheat sometimes about validities and they can do so without penalty and get away with it!!

 

[clagmonster]

How about that the excess is charged, along with the full £24 for the railcard. Temporary railcard is given as described, which in the case of an expired railcard is to have the number of the accompanying photocard. Same system as described above, but people who are not eligible do not get a refund of the £24.

 

[yorkie]

...Not checking would result in the TOC taking your money which may potentially have to be refunded. ...

then make it non-refundable! The TOCs are good at that anyway. So if the person is genuine then that's okay and if not then they are well and truly chinged. Sounds fair.

There are several potentially fair methods that can be used, I think most people probably agree that the current method is unfair!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How about that the excess is charged, along with the full £24 for the railcard. Temporary railcard is given as described, which in the case of an expired railcard is to have the number of the accompanying photocard. Same system as described above, but people who are not eligible do not get a refund of the £24.

Exactly what I was posting at the same time! Sounds a good plan.

Problem is ATOC will never do it as they take pleasure in effectively issuing fines (and using legal loopholes to make them not seem like they are fines... but they are really).

 

[glynn80]

Originally Posted by clagmonster View Post
How about that the excess is charged, along with the full £24 for the railcard. Temporary railcard is given as described, which in the case of an expired railcard is to have the number of the accompanying photocard. Same system as described above, but people who are not eligible do not get a refund of the £24.

Exactly what I was posting at the same time! Sounds a good plan.

Agreed, this system seems very fair to me.

The mistake the passenger has made is penalised by them paying the excess to the full fare ticket and anyone not entitled to the discount at all is then further penalised by the £24.00 charge.

 

[jon0844]

Hatfield has a real problem with YP railcards being shared around, or people not having them, hence the gates being set to trigger 'seek assistance'. They're also set to stop child tickets for the same reason.

As you say, people would just buy the wrong ticket and then say 'Oh, the machine must have given me the wrong ticket. I'm so sorry - what's the difference that I owe?' every single time.

TVMs could easily have a confirmations screen to make it clear that you must have a valid railcard (it would be a perfect reminder for someone to check there and then) and then mark the ticket with a code or symbol to show that the buyer implicitly confirmed they had one. You could then more easily impose a penalty, or even refer someone to court, if subsequently caught.

How difficult would it be to add such a disclaimer, which had to be confirmed before the ticket would be sold.

Hey, the same method could allow ticket extensions to be sold from a machine so people like me could actually get a ticket late at night - or from a LUL station - instead of trying to hunt for someone to sell me one at the destination.