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Penalty for expired railcard

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moonrakerz

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glynn80 - please re-read my post. I am not talking about what is allowed under current rules, rather what people would consider fair,

I am afraid your argument gets more and more tenuous -you are now saying that the present system isn't fair.

I get stopped by the police for doing 90mph in a 30mph zone - I might well consider that to be unfair - even though I know that is what the Ts & Cs of using that bit of road are.
That carries about as much weight as your pointless and never ending attempts to justify your, sorry to say this, stupidity in toting round a Railcard that was 6 weeks out of date !! You broke the rules - end of story, please return to the planet you came from.

The more you protest - the more I have to suspect your motives !
 
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me123

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I have to say that, as a railcard holder, I have to agree that penalties should be imposed for travelling without a valid railcard. Every year, we pay now £26 IIRC for the privilege to obtain the discounted fares. As has already been mentioned, many people abuse the railcard discount; I know several people who buy these tickets without a railcard and someone else who wrongly believes that their Young Scot Card entitles them to discounted travel (in fact, you need a National Entitlement Card for this; it's free but they're not the same thing). The reason this happens; simple; Scotrail RPI in the Strathclyde area son't really care about railcards unless they're selling the ticket. There's definitely a myth that you "don't need a railcard to travel". I'm pleased to say, at least, that Scotrail "proper" seems to be cracking down on this as of late.

Now, as someone who pays and honestly uses their railcard, I feel it's important that people do not abuse the system; it ensures that we don't have to pay more for a railcard and that we continue to get our discount. I'm sorry, but six weeks out of date is rather obscene; the date is clearly printed on the front of the railcard and it's not exactly easy to miss.

It's a harsh punishment, I'll agree, but it was not a valid ticket. Simple. The lesson here is to always check that your railcard is valid before travel.
 

blacknight

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I have definately come across passengers both on board the train and at the station who have bought excesses to an Off-peak ticket where they don't have a Railcard. I certaintly remember one guy who had to buy an excess for £23.00 (from the booking office) and I remember telling him that he should've bought a Railcard instead if he is planning on making another journey in the year!

Am I basically getting the gist of things that the OP's complaint is that he had to buy a whole new ticket instead of just an excess from the SVR (with Y-P) to SVR (without Y-P).

At last someone one the same thought process who can the injustice that person in question as been charge twice for an oversight. Where as the blatant fare dodger who as no intention of ever buying a ticket in first place is charged just the once basic open single fare no penalty there if there was a penalty fine of 20 quid still cheaper than the original fare paid in this case.
So for person charged twice where now is the insentive to buy a ticket before travelling just take a chance on getting gripped, if you do just pay fare smile & think about how many times you have gotten away with it.

The original concept of an open station introduced by BR when many stations were destaffed & pay trains entered service in the 1960s as been changed by the scummy bus operating companies that now run our railways.
Whens an unmanned "OPEN" nolonger a true open station in its full meaning
Answer when a TVM as been installed.
Once timetable used to say if ticket office is closed, well it as been since 1967 then you could buy full range of tickets on board.
Now timetable states where there are no ticket retailing facilities at station.
So in principle TOCs like idea of unstaffed stations no wage bill but want to charge full open fares onboard like at manned station. Therefore more revenue gathered in coffers no out goings i.e wage bill=No station improvements in years no chance of buying a coffee or going for an indoor **** or waiting room to sit in but you can buy your ticket before you travel but bigger profit for shareholders Thanks. Words Cake & eat it spring to mind.
 

Royston Vasey

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At last someone one the same thought process who can the injustice that person in question as been charge twice for an oversight. Where as the blatant fare dodger who as no intention of ever buying a ticket in first place is charged just the once basic open single fare no penalty there if there was a penalty fine of 20 quid still cheaper than the original fare paid in this case.
So for person charged twice where now is the insentive to buy a ticket before travelling just take a chance on getting gripped, if you do just pay fare smile & think about how many times you have gotten away with it.

The original concept of an open station introduced by BR when many stations were destaffed & pay trains entered service in the 1960s as been changed by the scummy bus operating companies that now run our railways.
Whens an unmanned "OPEN" nolonger a true open station in its full meaning
Answer when a TVM as been installed.
Once timetable used to say if ticket office is closed, well it as been since 1967 then you could buy full range of tickets on board.
Now timetable states where there are no ticket retailing facilities at station.
So in principle TOCs like idea of unstaffed stations no wage bill but want to charge full open fares onboard like at manned station. Therefore more revenue gathered in coffers no out goings i.e wage bill=No station improvements in years no chance of buying a coffee or going for an indoor **** or waiting room to sit in but you can buy your ticket before you travel but bigger profit for shareholders Thanks. Words Cake & eat it spring to mind.

Nice rant but irrelevant given that the OP could have bought the correct ticket from the machine at his origin station, and TVMs can sell the vast majority of tickets. It isn't the case that the TVM couldn't sell the correct ticket, only that it couldn't check his railcard. If an ticket unavailable on that machine was required and he sought out the guard on the train to purchase the correct one, there is surely no question of him being penalised.

As for your comparison of the "honest mistake" and "blatant fare dodger", firstly ignorance of the law (or in this case the railcard expiry date) is no defence. Secondly do you have anything to back up that a "blatant fare dodger... is only charged once... no penalty"
 

blacknight

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Nice rant but irrelevant given that the OP could have bought the correct ticket from the machine at his origin station, and TVMs can sell the vast majority of tickets. It isn't the case that the TVM couldn't sell the correct ticket, only that it couldn't check his railcard. If an ticket unavailable on that machine was required and he sought out the guard on the train to purchase the correct one, there is surely no question of him being penalised.

As for your comparison of the "honest mistake" and "blatant fare dodger", firstly ignorance of the law (or in this case the railcard expiry date) is no defence. Secondly do you have anything to back up that a "blatant fare dodger... is only charged once... no penalty"

No penalty fare system on NXEC at this point in time for boarding without a ticket just charged the full open fare if caught bearing in mind dispatch position of guard & length of train easy for blatant fare dodger to board at opposite end of train thats why stations along route are have automated gating systems installed at present.
As to regards the travelling without on discounted tickets without a valid railcard again, middle last year for a month or so passengers were treated as having no valid ticket & charged full open fare for journey but this quickly reverted to old system of excessing to recover 34% discounted part of fare owing due to lack of valid railcard.
Remember this rule applies to all railcards not just YP so makes for a very expensive day out for family or take food away from a pensioner if you were to charge them twice over. Also not able to enforce this rule fully as passenger could elect to leave service & sort out at ticket office at next station, also have yet to see barrier staff withdraw tickets from passengers travelling without railcards & demand another fare. Revenue protect as to be targeted wisely or it becomes seen as extortion & a money making racket, in this case card was out of date by weeks not altered or defaced & belonged to person concerned so personally I would have viewed this as mistake not fraud as stated else where yes I would have withdraw the railcard & excessed original ticket to recover discount which I think fits the "crime" committed
 

scrapy

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As to regards the travelling without on discounted tickets without a valid railcard again, middle last year for a month or so passengers were treated as having no valid ticket & charged full open fare for journey but this quickly reverted to old system of excessing to recover 34% discounted part of fare owing due to lack of valid railcard.

Excessing a railcard to full fare is not an option to guards. If anyone is excessing they will have had to make up a different reason to enter into the Advantix such as overdistance as a railcard to non railcard excess is not an option. It is still the case that anyone, not carrying a valid railcard, is treated as not having a ticket and this is shown in the railcard terms and conditions on both the ATOC and National Rail websites.
 

Tom C

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The idea of a £24 "penalty" on top of the excess from discounted to full fare sounds great but how would you apply that in a penalty fare area?

A passenger travelling without a valid railcard is deemed to be travelling with "No supporting document" which would leave him/her liable to a Penalty Fare which SHOULD be to the next stop then SDS to destination. Are we saying that the PF could also be used as a credit for a railcard bearing in mind that you do not excess the ticket at all if you are issuing a penalty fare?

If you do not travel with a valid railcard and are issued with a penalty fare and you subsequently appeal against that PF, despite providing evidence that you actually have a railcard, you are highly unlikely to win your appeal (infact I cannot remember ever hearing an appeal won on those grounds) and I feel that creating two systems is only going to make the system even more difficult for a passenger to understand.

The only way to make that work would be to remove "No supporting document" from the penalty fare which would make the temptation to purchase tickets without a railcard within a PF area even greater.

Personally, I think its very easy to check your railcard is in date as its printed on the railcard! If you travel with an out of date railcard then you should be liable to a full SDS or a Penalty Fare.
 

yorkie

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You can excess it at the station, to a non-railcard ticket. But you can't do this on board.
 

glynn80

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If you do not travel with a valid railcard and are issued with a penalty fare and you subsequently appeal against that PF, despite providing evidence that you actually have a railcard, you are highly unlikely to win your appeal (infact I cannot remember ever hearing an appeal won on those grounds) and I feel that creating two systems is only going to make the system even more difficult for a passenger to understand.

Do RPIs hear about which of their PFs are successfully appealed against then?
 

Tom C

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Do RPIs hear about which of their PFs are successfully appealed against then?

Not generally

You would be spoken to my your line manager if appeals had been successful in relation to mistakes being made on the PF. We have a system to deal with passengers failing to carry a season ticket however not for No Supporting Document so I would presume that if I was doing something wrong then I would have been spoken to by now!

You can excess it at the station, to a non-railcard ticket. But you can't do this on board

This is completely true and thats why generally the PF is issued to the next stop as the passenger can quite rightly get off at the next stop and excess his/her fare. When you are issuing a Penalty Fare on this matter, the ticket is not withdrawn, endorced or changed in any other way so there is nothing stopping the person excessing the fare at a later stage but not, as you say, on board (unless of course this was not possible ;))
 

dan_atki

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This is completely true and thats why generally the PF is issued to the next stop as the passenger can quite rightly get off at the next stop and excess his/her fare. When you are issuing a Penalty Fare on this matter, the ticket is not withdrawn, endorced or changed in any other way so there is nothing stopping the person excessing the fare at a later stage but not, as you say, on board (unless of course this was not possible ;))

I'm rather baffled now as I too am sure I've been on a train as a guard has excessed such a ticket on Avantix! I may be wrong though.

What would happen then if you turn up at the station, suddenly remember you've left your railcard at home five miles away, and want to excess your ticket at the ticket office but find it is closed? Is it a full priced single on board and then claim for a refund on the unused discounted ticket?

Admittedly this way you'd be paying the admin fee for the refund which you wouldn't on the excess... Or would you have grounds to get the admin fee refunded too in such a situation?
 

glynn80

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I'm rather baffled now as I too am sure I've been on a train as a guard has excessed such a ticket on Avantix! I may be wrong though.

What would happen then if you turn up at the station, suddenly remember you've left your railcard at home five miles away, and want to excess your ticket at the ticket office but find it is closed? Is it a full priced single on board and then claim for a refund on the unused discounted ticket?

Admittedly this way you'd be paying the admin fee for the refund which you wouldn't on the excess... Or would you have grounds to get the admin fee refunded too in such a situation?

Well I suppose if you asked the guard when they came around that you wanted to excess your ticket as you had forgotten your Railcard and informed them where you boarded, then I don't see this being a problem.

However just showing the ticket and no Railcard and then once challenged asking for the excess, that is when it is likely that fraud may be suspected and the guard would withdraw the invalid ticket and charge the full single fare.
 

yorkie

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This is completely true and thats why generally the PF is issued to the next stop as the passenger can quite rightly get off at the next stop and excess his/her fare. When you are issuing a Penalty Fare on this matter, the ticket is not withdrawn, endorced or changed in any other way so there is nothing stopping the person excessing the fare at a later stage but not, as you say, on board (unless of course this was not possible ;))
Now that IS interesting!!

So he'd have been better off in a PF area!! :o

As he'd have been charged £20, then could have either got a new railcard or paid an excess at the next stop.

I think that proves that the system needs changing if you are penalised for being in a non-penalty fare area!
 

Tom C

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Now that IS interesting!!

So he'd have been better off in a PF area!!

As he'd have been charged £20, then could have either got a new railcard or paid an excess at the next stop.

I think that proves that the system needs changing if you are penalised for being in a non-penalty fare area!

Well, this is the way it has always been within a PF area.

The only time a ticket would be withdrawn would be if it is sent with a MG11 statement as evidence, in which case the person would be given a slip to travel with a note about the withdrawl of the ticket.
 

clagmonster

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Surely though in a non penalty fair area the guard could just charge a standard single to the next station, and then let the person get off and do it there. It is effectively the same scenario, only the guard didn't offer this option.
I do think it is an oversight if indeed an excess in this way can't be done on Avantix, if only to excess such tickets on request to the guard when boarding at an unstaffed station.
As to the earlier point about the proposed temporart railcard not working in penalty fare areas, surely it would be possible to charge the £20 penalty fare, and if the person is able to prove eligibility, allow them to pay the difference up to a full railcard, starting from the date on which the ticket was purchased, or in the case of an expired railcard, starting from the expiry of the old one, whichever is later. Alternatively, increase penalty fares, but don't provide a refund of the diference.
 

thelem

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The only time a ticket would be withdrawn would be if it is sent with a MG11 statement as evidence, in which case the person would be given a slip to travel with a note about the withdrawl of the ticket.

I might be misunderstanding the terminology, but in my case the guard kept both my original ticket and my expired railcard and issued me a new ticket (which is one reason why I couldn't buy a ticket to the next station, then get a railcard/excess).

Would I have kept hold of my original ticket in a penalty fare area?

(Once again, I'm not looking for refund/blame, just to understand and ideally improve the system).
 

glynn80

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I might be misunderstanding the terminology, but in my case the guard kept both my original ticket and my expired railcard and issued me a new ticket (which is one reason why I couldn't buy a ticket to the next station, then get a railcard/excess).

Would I have kept hold of my original ticket in a penalty fare area?

(Once again, I'm not looking for refund/blame, just to understand and ideally improve the system).

OK, the guard was certainly incorrect to withdraw the ticket without a receipt. But the guard was entitled to remove the ticket from yourself if they suspected a fraudulent action was taking place. The fact she took your Railcard is irrelevant as it remains the TOCs property and once out of date you have no right to of kept it.

In penalty fare areas and non penalty fare areas, you are entitled to keep your ticket if the guard believes that no further invalid use of the ticket will occur. In this case obviously the guard thought that you had already used the ticket with a 6-week out of date Railcard and in her mind you were likely to misuse the ticket again, so she kept it.

If there is a next time and you are not in a rush, take the advice we have arrived at, which is to purchase the non-discounted full fare single to the next manned station and then purchase a new Railcard (if you would still be entitled to it) and then continue to use the original ticket that hopefully the guard would allow you to keep. Your other option, if the guard allows you to keep your ticket, is at the next manned station to just excess the original ticket into the non-discounted fare. If the guard does not allow you to keep your original ticket you are likely to be equally worse off staying on the train as getting off (unless there is a Super/Off Peak Single) it so my advice would be to just pay up in that circumstance ensuring you get a receipt for your withdrawn ticket.
 

yorkie

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glynn80 said:
...was entitled to remove the ticket from yourself if they suspected a fraudulent action was taking place...
If they thought it was fraud they should have issued an MG11. It would have been thrown out of court though.
Would I have kept hold of my original ticket in a penalty fare area?.
From what Tom says, yes. And he is an RPI and has always come across as being fair and professional to me, so I believe him. But the fact is that you are at the mercy of a guard/RPI who may not be fair, may not be professional and may not be reasonable. It's pot luck. Most are, but there are certainly some bad apples out there...
 

glynn80

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If they thought it was fraud they should have issued an MG11. It would have been thrown out of court though.

And it would be thrown out why?....

Also a Travel Irregularity Report is likely to be the first port of call, if the issue was in the guards opinion, to be dealt with as a civil debt. If he seriously suspected fare "evasion" that is when an MG11 would be submitted instead.
 

glynn80

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Because you could never prove the intent.

When did you graduate from law school??

In my "opinion", with a 6 week out of date Railcard which was used on both outward and return portions where the OP must have looked at his ticket wallet on numerous occasions when buying his ticket, putting it in his ticket wallet showing it many times etc., that to me proves that he is likely to of known it was out of date but still decided to use the Railcard thus proving intent, especially considering he used the TVMs at Bristol as opposed to one of the ticket windows.

Remember yorkie a conviction is based on "beyond reasonable doubt", not to elimate ALL doubt.

NB. (I am not suggesting these were the OPs intentions just what it may look like to an outside party/magistrate).
 

yorkie

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He says he didn't use it in that 6 week period. So you'd need to prove he did. Good luck there!:lol:

You say he looked at it several times, well, prove he did..!

You say the 'fact' he 'knew' it was out of date proves intent, but prove he knew it was out of date please?

Ticket vending machines are probably the most common method of obtaining tickets at major stations now, so the fact one was used is utterly irrelevant.

I rest my case!
 

glynn80

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He says he didn't use it in that 6 week period. So you'd need to prove he did. Good luck there!:lol:

You say he looked at it several times, well, prove he did..!

When did I say he did use it in the 6 week period. The point I was trying to make, was that the Railcard would have shown a completely different month, to the month the OP was travelling in, arousing even more suspicion, that even a quick glance at the Railcard would make it likely for you to notice this fact.

Sufficient cross-examination could easily prove he looked at the Railcard on many occasions. Questions such as where did you keep your tickets when travelling, did you keep the tickets and railcard in the same wallet when carrying your luggage through the side gate etc. etc..

From prior posts I can see you like the defence in ticketing terms of it will never stand up in court (which you yourself claim comes from no legal knowledge from yourself). However from the continuance you seem to push this point, it seems you have deluded yourself into believing that the courts will never convict unless they are 100% sure of guilt. Anyone with even basic legal facts knows that is not needed with the phrase "beyond reasonable doubt" used. It may be best to refrain from giving out this advice to every case where there is likely to be conflict between TOC and passenger especially in cases such as this.
 
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jon0844

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We don't know that the guard didn't offer, or wouldn't have sold, a ticket to the next station. As this thread has dragged on, I'm starting to disbelieve the OP a bit. Before I took him at face value, but then it started with the 'unfair' rants and suggestions that we were all accusing him of being a criminal. Now, I suspect there's more to it than we've been told.

Sorry, but failing to accept an obvious mistake and continuing to look for sympathy and support suggests the OP won't accept they didn't have a valid ticket and it was HIS responsibility to check his railcard was invalid.

If he had forgotten his YP railcard, he'd have been expected to buy a new ticket and then claim it back after. When I left my season ticket at home, I had to buy a day travelcard and subsequently claim a refund the next day - no hassle and no complaint from me. I left it at home and needed a new ticket. I didn't opt to say "BUT I'VE GOT A TICKET. I PAY £3.5K A YEAR AND PAY YOUR WAGES NOW LET ME TRAVEL OR I'LL COMPLAIN AND GET YOU FIRED!" as some people might.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Right, I think this thread is getting out of hand, maybe others feel the same, maybe not. I think the legal arguement about fraud should be left alone (unless there is a qualified lawyer among us).

In the even that a traveller forgets a railcard and is issued a new ticket to cover all the journies made (ie they were caught out on the outward trip) they can apply for a refund on the DISCOUNTED ticket (minus admin fee), not the new undiscounted ticket, this is different from those who 'forget' their season ticket.

It is complicated in this case because the op was on his return journey.
 

blacknight

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Well I suppose if you asked the guard when they came around that you wanted to excess your ticket as you had forgotten your Railcard and informed them where you boarded, then I don't see this being a problem.

However just showing the ticket and no Railcard and then once challenged asking for the excess, that is when it is likely that fraud may be suspected and the guard would withdraw the invalid ticket and charge the full single fare.

In revenue protection a rule as to be applied equally to otherwise it becomes unenforceable for what happens for say in the situation where you change trains & under the present system change TOCs who enforce this rule differingly ie NXEC & FGW.
For instance ticket was checked on first service but railcard was not asked for & as deemed ticket valid for journey being made but on second leg of journey another inspector deems the same ticket invalid for journey being made & attempts to issue a new ticket.
I know its always been the case that you have to have valid railcard to go with discounted ticket but I suspect the fail to do so clause as been recently amended in last year or so to being deemed to be travelling without ticket full open single liable in bold on back of application form.
Say for instance as in this case you complete outward leg of journey railcard as not been asked for but you then discover your railcard is 6 weeks out of date before your return journey have you committed "fraud" as some have suggested on outward leg if you then go to ticket office before commencing return journey & either renew railcard or pay excess on ticket to rectify your error are ticket office staff aiding you in your original "fraud" or correcting an oversight on your behalf.
In law punishment as to fit the "crime" price of open fare on some journeys these days makes the fine excessive would not a fixed penalty on a sliding scale of say 5 pound for up to 2 months & 10 for up to 6 month & 20 pound for beyound 6 month be apt for railcard offences & be enforcable across all TOCs regardless of price of fare because the offence is the same on all routes.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....Say for instance as in this case you complete outward leg of journey railcard as not been asked for but you then discover your railcard is 6 weeks out of date before your return journey have you committed "fraud" as some have suggested on outward leg if you then go to ticket office before commencing return journey & either renew railcard or pay excess on ticket to rectify your error are ticket office staff aiding you in your original "fraud" or correcting an oversight on your behalf....

They would be correcting your mistake and probably letting you off the outward fare if that journey was completed, they would not be aiding any fraud (A 'fraudster' would not willingly approach a ticket office to correct his ticket!).

....In law punishment as to fit the "crime" price of open fare on some journeys these days makes the fine excessive would not a fixed penalty on a sliding scale of say 5 pound for up to 2 months & 10 for up to 6 month & 20 pound for beyound 6 month be apt for railcard offences & be enforcable across all TOCs regardless of price of fare because the offence is the same on all routes.

I take it you suggest that penalty above the cost of 'excessing' the ticket to a full price version of the ticket held (assuming it is valid) otherwise a £5 fine for a ticket discounted by £15 (or whatever) is hardly a penalty!

Look at it this way, if you notice before you travel that your railcard is out of date, you go to the ticket office purchase a new ticket and refund the other (net loss of £5 because of refund) or buy a new railcard (no financial loss as you are likely to use the railcard again and/or may still have saved the cost).

Why should someone who deliberately avoids this action suffer the same penalty? I'm not saying the OP deliberately chose his course of action, but how can he be distingished, by a complete stranger, from someone who does? The penalty must be the same for both and discourage that behaviour or the rules will become a joke.
 
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Tom C

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Also a Travel Irregularity Report is likely to be the first port of call, if the issue was in the guards opinion, to be dealt with as a civil debt. If he seriously suspected fare "evasion" that is when an MG11 would be submitted instead.

We do not use TIR's.

You have a choice of a Penalty Fare or a MG11. Remember a MG11 is a Witness Statement and nothing more and is simply the inspector establishing the facts, then it is down to the prosecutors to decide what action needs taking. The inspector makes no decision as to what happens with a MG11 statement once it leaves his pro forma book.

Because you could never prove the intent.

Its very easy to prove intent in this case. You do not need to go around the houses to prove it either. I could ask one additional question on top of the proforma questions which would either prove intent or get you arrested depending on the yes/no answer. Have to say, most people who travel with an out of date railcard generally know that its indefenseable and pay. I cannot remember the last time I had to MG11 someone for it.

Its also important to note that you do not need to prove SUSTAINED intent (i.e done on more than one occassion) once is more than enough.

However from the continuance you seem to push this point, it seems you have deluded yourself into believing that the courts will never convict unless they are 100% sure of guilt.

Im afraid Glynn is right here. When matters of this nature go to court it is not like a trial and you very rarely get court reports with "withdrawn" on them, put it that way!

I think the OP was dealt with a little harshly but certainly not unfairly. I do think he was wrong to withdraw a ticket without a receipt but if he had issued you with a receipt I don't the OP would have a leg to stand on.
 

blacknight

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They would be correcting your mistake and probably letting you off the outward fare if that journey was completed, they would not be aiding any fraud (A 'fraudster' would not willingly approach a ticket office to correct his ticket!).



I take it you suggest that penalty above the cost of 'excessing' the ticket to a full price version of the ticket held (assuming it is valid) otherwise a £5 fine for a ticket discounted by £15 (or whatever) is hardly a penalty!

Look at it this way, if you notice before you travel that your railcard is out of date, you go to the ticket office purchase a new ticket and refund the other (net loss of £5 because of refund) or buy a new railcard (no financial loss as you are likely to use the railcard again and/or may still have saved the cost).

Why should someone who deliberately avoids this action suffer the same penalty? I'm not saying the OP deliberately chose his course of action, but how can he be distingished, by a complete stranger, from someone who does? The penalty must be the same for both and discourage that behaviour or the rules will become a joke.

Exactly what I am suggesting for an offence of this nature if in carring out onboard ticket checks the 34% dicount is recovered by excessing ticket & then adding the penalty as per sliding scale. This way punishment for this crime is the same proportional 34% + penalty on any route.
In case of travelling with no railcard then excess the fare to recover the discount, a fixed twenty pound fine (10pound OAP) then caution person as to offence ie travelling without railcard. Complete Ticket Irregularity Report give them 30 days in which to produce their railcard to debit recovery, with a 50% reduction in fixed penalty if they produce an in date railcard & not a freshly issued one in 30 day period.
Failure to do so an offence of fraud as been committed & so pursue person through the courts with a fixed penalty of say 100 pound.
In case of defaced or altered railcard then thats fraud so straight fixed penalty notice of 100 pound
 
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EM2

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blacknight - Will you please learn to punctuate properly and form coherent sentences? You may well be making some excellent points, but it's so difficult to read your posts, I've given up trying to wade through them.
 
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