Penalty notice for unprinted ticket

[John Palmer]

I am not "distorting your meaning", and I am selectively quoting because that is the only element of your post that I wished to comment on. Your comment is, I'm afraid, a misconception (as confirmed by @skyhigh in post #57) which I was correcting.

It is clearly out of date.

You represented my original post as a positive assertion that the message displayed was not an indication of fault. You failed to quote my preceding observation that I entertained nothing more than a suspicion that this might be the case. That's distortion; please don't engage in it.

It is in no way clear to me that what the Nationalrail and Easyrail sites have to say about the non-availability of collection facilities at Orrell is “out of date.” I may, or may not, be labouring under what you claim to be the misconception in that respect that you are so anxious to correct, but it makes no difference to my proposition that the passenger was put at risk of penalty either by a fault in the railway's equipment or by misleading information published by its agent, that in such circumstances it is unconscionable for the passenger to be subjected to such penalty, and that this constitutes a compelling ground on which an appeal against the penalty fare imposed should be upheld.

 

[Haywain]

You represented my original post as a positive assertion that the message displayed was not an indication of fault. You failed to quote my preceding observation that I entertained nothing more than a suspicion that this might be the case. That's distortion; please don't engage in it.

I apologise if I offended you, but you are misrepresenting my intentions. This is an internet forum and that sometimes happens, and you are now choosing to do exactly the thing you are accusing me of.

 

[John Palmer]

I apologise if I offended you, but you are misrepresenting my intentions. This is an internet forum and that sometimes happens, and you are now choosing to do exactly the thing you are accusing me of.

I was seeking, on a purely factual basis, to address what I perceived to be the change in meaning that resulted from the truncated quotation of my original post. I do not see that as amounting to a misrepresentation of whatever intentions lay behind your post (which I take you to regard as being the same conduct as that of which you say I have accused you), but rather as an objection to the expression of those intentions in the particular way that you chose. I don't believe that I have, in fact, impugned the intentions underlying your post, but if I have inadvertently given offence by doing so then I reciprocate with apologies for my own error.

 

[AdamWW]

I can't see any magistrate accepting the could buy another ticket argument.

In any case weren't we originally discussing a case where a Penalty Fare was issued?

(Though I don't think we've seen the OP for a while).

 

[Argyle 1980]

I can't remember where I see this whether it was on GWR's app or website but do remember reading in the Q&A in the help section that if you cannot collect your pre purchased tickets like in the circumstance of the machine not being able to find or retrieve the booking or if the machine is completely down, then it actually said you CAN board your train but need to seek help from staff at the earliest opportunity. Hazard I know this is a different TOC but technically one TOC is telling somebody it's OK to board a train whilst other's say it's not allowed. I'm sure somebody will be along to cite conditions of carriage and bye laws but if somebody being prosecuted in such circumstances presented that literature in court, then I'm pretty sure they'd throw the TOCs case out.

I'm not surprised in the slightest that this is Merseyrail. My daughter who's studying to be a teacher at Edgehill University recently asked me to help with one of her students at the school she is on placement at. This boy who is 15 got penalty fared for being an adult on a child ticket for a journey from Wolverhampton to Brunswick. He showed the inspectors his biometric ARC card which the bizarrely refused to accept and issued him a penalty notice, the subsequent appeal was generically rejected.

 

[Metalslug]

I’m still here, I’m reading through the detailed responses. I find the arguments and counter arguments absolutely fascinating. To everyone who has commented on this, I really appreciate your input.

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened for @Metalslug to provide an update

 

[Metalslug]

Sorry for delay. The appeal was rejected on the basis that they could see the ticket machine at the home station was able to print a ticket. We just paid it. Seems unfair but you live and learn.

 

[gray1404]

You will definitely be out of time now to submit another appeal I suspect You can simply submit the same again if you can't be bothered spending too much time on it.

It is only at the third and final appeal is it looked at truly independently. Also if you win your second or third appeal you have to be refunded if you have paid already.

 

[John Palmer]

What is the date of the the relevant appeal panel's decision, and when would it have received the appeal it has rejected? I assume this was either a first or second stage appeal, rather than a final appeal, which is subject to a different rule regarding the time within which an appeal must be determined, but clarification on that score would be helpful. I ask because there appears to have been a potentially significant interval between the OP's post dated 10 June and the thread being re-opened for update on 21 August.

And, as a further matter of interest, if the appeal was rejected on the basis that the TVM at the home station (Orrell?) was able to print the ticket, what evidence did the appeal panel identify as trumping the time-stamped photograph indicating that the machine was unable to do so?

 

[Haywain]

And, as a further matter of interest, if the appeal was rejected on the basis that the TVM at the home station (Orrell?) was able to print the ticket,

I'm guessing that they refer to the TVM at Headbolt Lane as that is the origin station on the PF.

 

[John Palmer]

I'm guessing that they refer to the TVM at Headbolt Lane as that is the origin station on the PF.

Possibly, but the update refers to the TVM at the 'home' station, which the OP has previously identified as being Orrell. Another point on which clarification would help.

 

[185]

Just a reminder that Merseyrail are very helpful for those collecting e-tickets including this function on their machines.. oh, maybe not

Pic: Liverpool Lime Street S&B machine, no collect function.

 

[Haywain]

Just a reminder that Merseyrail are very helpful for those collecting e-tickets including this function on their machines.. oh, maybe not

Pic: Liverpool Lime Street S&B machine, no collect function.

Isn’t it just at ticket counters that they offer collection?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn’t it just at ticket counters that they offer collection?

Yes, except Capenhurst/Bache/Overpool/Little Sutton where due to them being unstaffed I believe the TVM has been enabled for collection.

 

[185]

Isn’t it just at ticket counters that they offer collection?

You're right. But, in my opinion, it doesn't excuse this shenanigan which helps their little trainlineageddon.

No signage on the machine that unlike the country's other 99.9% of tvms you cannot collect tickets and must go to the office.