Penultimate destinations

[sudsandsoda]

Hi all,

I hope this isn't too basic a question. I've searched and even asked National Rail without getting an answer that satisfies my mind.

Trains out of London Paddington often show on the platform & concourse screens that their destination is actually their penultimate stop.

Examples are trans for Reading that show Twyford, and trains for Oxford that show Radley.

As soon as you leave Paddington the stations then begin to show the actual final stop.

NR's explanation was that they do this sometimes if a train runs in a loop. But this doesn't really explain it enough for me.

Would love to know the thinking behind it.

Cheers.

 

[yorkie]

See Services advertised with a pretend destination

It's so passengers don't get confused so easily between the fast and all shack services.

It's the same for the Harrogate loop services from Leeds and York. Rather than advertise it as a Leeds service from York, it's shown as a Burley Park service, so people who want to get to Leeds don't accidentally catch it and then spend an age trundling around instead of catching a TPE or XC service that takes around 25 minutes.

I thought we had a more recent thread on this subject but I can't find it now.

 

[Dr Hoo]

A good example of where the 'real' destination does cause problems is in the Hope Valley.
I frequently catch local Northern trains from Sheffield towards Manchester Piccadilly where there are passengers on board who really intended to catch the faster TransPennine or East Midlands trains.
Besides the difference between a pacer and an air conditioned Class 158 or 185 with disabled accessible toilet, refreshment trolley and first class (on TP) there is often argy bargy over invalid tickets, missed connections at Manchester or flights from Manchester Airport.
To see some hapless tourist with English as a poor second language being charged for a new ticket as well as knowing that they are going to have massive hassle later on is a depressing experience. All because they asked someone for "the Manchester train". If only they were shown as "Reddish North".

 

[Bletchleyite]

HWould love to know the thinking behind it.

It's done because it's not the fastest train to that destination as another overtakes it. However I personally believe it to be a silly idea. Better to let passengers choose based on calling points, and display arrival times like they do at Euston now.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Hi all,

I hope this isn't too basic a question. I've searched and even asked National Rail without getting an answer that satisfies my mind.

Trains out of London Paddington often show on the platform & concourse screens that their destination is actually their penultimate stop.

Examples are trans for Reading that show Twyford, and trains for Oxford that show Radley.

As soon as you leave Paddington the stations then begin to show the actual final stop.

NR's explanation was that they do this sometimes if a train runs in a loop. But this doesn't really explain it enough for me.

Would love to know the thinking behind it.

Cheers.

They do it for the slow trains, so that people wanting to go to the real destination don't spend an age getting there:

PAD-RDG fast: 29m non-stop.
PAD-RDG slow: 1h 12m with 11 intermediary stops.

PAD-OXF fast: 57m with 2 intermediary stops.
PAD-OXF slow: 1h 58m with 18 intermediary stops.

I think it's a good solution, since I think even with giving arrival times new travellers wouldn't necessarily realise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To see some hapless tourist with English as a poor second language being charged for a new ticket as well as knowing that they are going to have massive hassle later on is a depressing experience. All because they asked someone for "the Manchester train". If only they were shown as "Reddish North".

The solution to this is not to lie about the destination, but to use train numbers like flight numbers shown on PIS and on reservation slips/Advance tickets. Every other European railway that does train-specific tickets does - I have no idea why we don't.

We should also use InterCity, InterRegio, Regional Express and Local designations to make this kind of thing clearer.

 

[sjoh]

What I can't grasp is why GWR will often use different stations as the 'terminus' for Oxford slows. I've seen Appleford, Culham, and Radley used on departure boards.
If for instance there was a variation in where the slow service was overtaken, I could understand - but it's a double track railway from Didcot to Oxford, so I struggle to see where such an overtake could happen!

Aside from that, though, I don't see anything wrong with the practice.

Edit: Having thought about it and checked, I've realised this is because services don't call at Radley and Culham - it's either or.

 

[TheKnightWho]

What I can't grasp is why GWR will often use different stations as the 'terminus' for Oxford slows. I've seen Appleford, Culham, and Radley used on departure boards.
If for instance there was a variation in where the slow service was overtaken, I could understand - but it's a double track railway from Didcot to Oxford, so I struggle to see where such an overtake could happen!

Aside from that, though, I don't see anything wrong with the practice.

Edit: Having thought about it and checked, I've realised this is because services don't call at Radley and Culham - it's either or.

On that note - are there any trains that call at every single station in between? I've seen trains that will call at Radley, Culham and Appleford, but they then run semi-fast from Didcot.

 

[sjoh]

On that note - are there any trains that call at every single station in between? I've seen trains that will call at Radley, Culham and Appleford, but they then run semi-fast from Didcot.

A quick national rail enquiry suggests so - but they're not often.

In fact, in checking, I just managed to find this routing, which is suggested as the fastest journey at one point in the day and, at £12.60 is a far cry from the usual £3.

 

[TheDavibob]

Kings Cross has a "next fastest train to" board (for people going to Peterborough and Cambridge, for example), which does the job pretty well.

 

[anti-pacer]

Don't the GN stoppers from Peterborough to King's Cross show "Finsbury Park"?

 

[PeterC]

When I lived in Shenfield the station announcers would give the "pretend" destination, eg Maryland or Stratford, but the screens always showed Liverpool Street.

I have felt that this was a good idea ever since a guy on my team turned up 30 minutes late at a client site because he caught the all stations train terminating there rather than the inter city that ran fast.

 

[tbtc]

A good example of where the 'real' destination does cause problems is in the Hope Valley.
I frequently catch local Northern trains from Sheffield towards Manchester Piccadilly where there are passengers on board who really intended to catch the faster TransPennine or East Midlands trains.
Besides the difference between a pacer and an air conditioned Class 158 or 185 with disabled accessible toilet, refreshment trolley and first class (on TP) there is often argy bargy over invalid tickets, missed connections at Manchester or flights from Manchester Airport.
To see some hapless tourist with English as a poor second language being charged for a new ticket as well as knowing that they are going to have massive hassle later on is a depressing experience. All because they asked someone for "the Manchester train". If only they were shown as "Reddish North".

I appreciate that a fast 158/185 is better than a slow Pacer (and I've been stuck on the Pacer a few times in my life, especially when there's been delays to long distance services).

However, in fairness to the Hope Valley situation, the Northern stoppers are generally timed so that they aren't actually overtaken.

e.g. the 10:11 from Sheffield is a TPE 185 that gets to Manchester at 11:03...

...the 10:40 from Sheffield is an EMT 158 that gets into Manchester at 11:36...

so the 10:14 Northern Pacer is carefully timed to leave just after the TPE service, but arrive just before the EMT service (11:34).

On the way back, the EMT service at 12:43 gets into Sheffield at 13:34...

...the TPE service at 13:20 arrives at 14:08...

...so the Northern stopper is neatly scheduled to leave just after the EMT service (12:49) and arrive just before the TPE service (14:06).

So anyone seeing the Northern service as the "next departure to Manchester" is probably going to be better off getting it (if they are in a hurry to get to Manchester, have flights to catch etc).

Some may prefer to wait twenty-something minutes at Sheffield station to travel on a nicer train (at the cost of getting to Manchester a couple of minutes later), but the "next departure to Manchester" will generally be the "next arrival in Manchester", so I wouldn't change the departure boards to say "Reddish North".

(there may be examples where a Hope Valley stopper does get overtaken enroute, but generally they are scheduled to leave just before a fast and arrive at the other end just before the next fast train arrives)

Kings Cross has a "next fastest train to" board (for people going to Peterborough and Cambridge, for example), which does the job pretty well.

I'd like to see this kind of thing at a lot more stations

 

[sk688]

Pretty sure I've seen trains on Watford Dc lines going to " Kilburn high road " or " south Hampstead " instead of Euston , to encourage passengers from bushey harrow or Watford to take LM instead

 

[yorkie]

The solution to this is not to lie about the destination, but to use train numbers like flight numbers shown on PIS and on reservation slips/Advance tickets. Every other European railway that does train-specific tickets does - I have no idea why we don't.

And that would work for London to Reading walk-up passengers, would it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Pretty sure I've seen trains on Watford Dc lines going to " Kilburn high road " or " south Hampstead " instead of Euston , to encourage passengers from bushey harrow or Watford to take LM instead

Yes they are advertised for South Hampstead heading south and Watford High Street heading north.

 

[Bookd]

Another example would be trains from Waterloo to Weybridge via Staines which (IIRC) show a destination of Addlestone, because anyone going to Weybridge would find it quicker on the mainline. After passing Barnes the Weybridge destination is restored.

 

[swt_passenger]

Another example would be trains from Waterloo to Weybridge via Staines which (IIRC) show a destination of Addlestone, because anyone going to Weybridge would find it quicker on the mainline. After passing Barnes the Weybridge destination is restored.

A perfect example of where they really should show false destinations on SWT, but don't for some reason, are the down Poole trains. Take one of them and you'll be wasting well over an hour of your day...

However in the up direction they are advertised as Farnborough services at some stations such as Brockenhurst or Southampton Airport, but at Southampton Central they are shown as Waterloo, allegedly to make it easier for Megatrain passengers...

 

[317666]

The Cambridge - Kings Cross stopper used to be shown as Finsbury Park at Cambridge, or as Foxton at Kings Cross, but this seems to have ceased.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A few more examples from West Yorkshire:
Huddersfield to Selby services are advertised as Bradford Interchange, but the mainline stoppers are not given a false destination, meaning guards will usually announce that passengers for Leeds can get there quicker on the express from P8. As these services aren't usually overtaken towards Leeds it's not a major problem. However towards Huddersfield the services are overtaken at Mirfield, so advertising them as Dewsbury or Deighton from Leeds could help.
The former peak extra from Leeds to Sheffield via Huddersfield was always advertised at Leeds as being a Dodworth service, as any stops beyond there could be reached quicker via Wakefield.

 

[Failed Unit]

An interesting one that doesn't is the northern service at Doncaster heading to Lincoln via Sheffield. Saying that i don't know what they would put on the board. Even Worksop the last non-duplicates stop is much slower than a change at Retford.

Not such an issue the other way. Ardwick isn't a popular destination from Lincolnshire.

I don't know if the still show Gainsborough at Peterborough rather than Doncaster like they did in the past.

 

[anti-pacer]

An interesting one that doesn't is the northern service at Doncaster heading to Lincoln via Sheffield. Saying that i don't know what they would put on the board. Even Worksop the last non-duplicates stop is much slower than a change at Retford.

Not such an issue the other way. Ardwick isn't a popular destination from Lincolnshire.

I don't know if the still show Gainsborough at Peterborough rather than Doncaster like they did in the past.

Or even Adwick.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A few more examples from West Yorkshire:
Huddersfield to Selby services are advertised as Bradford Interchange, but the mainline stoppers are not given a false destination, meaning guards will usually announce that passengers for Leeds can get there quicker on the express from P8. As these services aren't usually overtaken towards Leeds it's not a major problem. However towards Huddersfield the services are overtaken at Mirfield, so advertising them as Dewsbury or Deighton from Leeds could help.
The former peak extra from Leeds to Sheffield via Huddersfield was always advertised at Leeds as being a Dodworth service, as any stops beyond there could be reached quicker via Wakefield.

Added to this. Huddersfield via Bradford services are as advertised as Brighouse in Leeds.

 

[PHILIPE]

At Chester, many trains are advertised as running to Chester, Merseyrail ones which run in a circle round Liverpool area and regain their route in the opposite direction back to Chester.
.

 

[johnnychips]

Not such an issue the other way. Ardwick isn't a popular destination from Lincolnshire.

I don't know if the still show Gainsborough at Peterborough rather than Doncaster like they did in the past.

Ardwick isn't a popular destination for anyone. You mean Adwick. EDIT: beat me to it anti Pacer, didn't see it in between quotes.


Are there any trains to Donny from Peterborough via Sleaford any more? I don't think there are any the other way.

My mate assumed a train from Gent Sint Pieters to Brussels Airport would be fast, and ended up at Leeds/Bradford instead of Manchester £166 lighter.

 

[Parallel]

SWT services to London Waterloo were advertised on boards at stations Bristol Temple Meads to Westbury as terminating at Salisbury, rather than London Waterloo for a time.

My guess is because people with flexible tickets were boarding with it not being the fastest route. Bristol to Paddington takes about 1h45, and Bristol to Waterloo takes nearly three hours.

It seems to have reverted back to 'London Waterloo' now. I would have thought 'Basingstoke' or 'Woking' may have been more appropriate at the time, however it may have been faster to reach these stations changing at Reading anyway.

The evening FGW London - Bristol service that ran via Trowbridge used to have 'Bradford On Avon' on the boards at Paddington and Reading, though this service now ceases to run, and instead terminates at Westbury.

 

[Failed Unit]

Ardwick isn't a popular destination for anyone. You mean Adwick. EDIT: beat me to it anti Pacer, didn't see it in between quotes.


Are there any trains to Donny from Peterborough via Sleaford any more? I don't think there are any the other way.

1150 Peterborough - Doncaster Monday - Friday.

Not sure about Saturday.

 

[johnnychips]

1150 Peterborough - Doncaster Monday - Friday.

Not sure about Saturday.

Thanks - never realised that.

 

[IanXC]

Northern/ScotRail services from Newcastle to Glasgow Central are advertised as Barrhead, at Newcastle only, to avoid similarly long accidental journies.

 

[james2trains]

Or even Adwick.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Added to this. Huddersfield via Bradford services are as advertised as Brighouse in Leeds.

Also in the Leeds area is the Leeds to York via Harrogate services. The stopper via Harrogate to York is advertised as 'Poppleton', as there a much quicker ways of reaching York from Leeds.

This happens at York the other way round, as the displays show Burley Park, not Leeds.

 

[craigybagel]

I wish it was done for Heart Of Wales services that run through to Cardiff Central. I always try to make announcements warning people but quite often still end up with passengers getting off at Church Stretton to wait for the next direct service......

 

[Dr Hoo]

To pick up tbtc's detailed and well-reasoned comments on my mention of the Hope Valley line, sadly it is not just a question of timetabling and trains being scheduled to overtake.
As a forty year career in railway operations taught me, no matter how elegant and logical the timetable, the first encounter with the foibles of the real railway is enough to reduce some passengers to total (but innocent) confusion.
Both Sheffield and Manchester Piccadilly stations can be confusing to the unwary, with peculiar platform numbering, multiple berthing of trains in platforms, last minute platform changes and heavily abbreviated information displays.
So, to take just one example, even when everything is running by the book:
The 1714 Sheffield-Manchester Piccadilly local is already in Platform 8 at 1708, having worked in from Adwick.
The 1711 Sheffield-Manchester Airport via Piccadilly has not yet arrived so Platform 6 is heaving.
Already stressed and un-familiar traveller for Manchester Airport, with heavy luggage, emerges from the lift and asks nearest passenger "where's the Manchester train".
Helpful passenger indicates rammed Pacer on Platform 8.
Luckless traveller has awful trip to Manchester, possibly gets excessed/penalty faked and then has to dash to Platform 13 at Piccadilly, with luggage, in desperate panic to avoid missing flight.

I would reckon that on around 50% of my Hope Valley local trips in either direction there is at least one passenger on the train who has caught it 'by mistake', having been confused into letting their intended fast train go a few minutes ahead for one reason or another.