People's attitude to buying tickets.

[BanburyBlue]

I've seen various posts over time, normally following either a Fixed Penalty or intention to prosecute letter, where people have got onto a train without a ticket. Normally the reasoning is along the lines of "the ticket machine was not working", "I was running late", "I thought I was allowed to buy a ticket on the train" or the "I was going to buy a ticket at the other end".

Now, I've always lived in a town with a station with a fully functioning ticket office, so have always bought tickets before travelling, so this got me wondering where this concept of "I can buy a ticket on the train/purchase one later" come from? When I was a kid you never used to see a guard come around with a ticket machine on services unless the train served stations without a ticket office, for example, the local stoppers between Banbury and Oxford because stations like King's Sutton didn't have a ticket office or a machine, but never on the Paddington Birmingham Inter-City trains.

It seems a strange idea where people think it's okay on the railway but not anywhere else. I mean people wouldn't do it Tesco - "I was running late, so I dashed in to get a Mars Bar, and I was going to pay for it later, or if a member of staff stopped me before the exit". Well some do, but excluding the deliberate fare evaders, most people wouldn't.

And I guess that indeed, there is a range of people who do this ranging from the deliberate fare evaders, through to honestly mistakenly belief that it is okay to buy a ticket onboard/later, with some 'chancers' in the middle who will pay if caught, but if there is no guard on the train or barriers at the other end then 'happy days'?

In considering this there are few things that come to mind, which does make we wonder whether mixed messages are being given that may confuse the average person in the street...

• I know there used to be some services where it was promoted that you could buy tickets on board (pay trains?), but I thought these were limited? And in the past?
  
  
• At Marylebone, there is an excess fares window the railway side of the ticket barriers. It always seems to be doing a brisk business in the mornings, normally a significant queue, so why aren't these people buying tickets before they board?
  
  
• Are guards causing some of the problem? There was a recent thread where some guy's daughter was running late so she jumped on a train and was given a Fixed Penalty, where the guard would only take cash (machines at stations being card only). Apparently the OP talked to another guard who said they would have sold the ticket and accepted a card payment. As a regular user of Cross Country I quite often see Train Managers selling tickets which always surprises me. I would expect the first question to be "why didn't you buy a ticket before you got on board", followed by a 'reminder' of the obligation to buy a ticket before boarding'? I think the last time was on a trip to Derby with people getting on a Nuneaton or Burton?

As I said above, ignoring deliberate fare avoiders, there does seem to be a generally held belief from a significant lump of people that it is okay to get on board without a ticket?

 

[kristiang85]

I've always thought that it was OK to buy tickets on trains, but without any discounts from railcards (hence why I've never got into the habit of it, so I've never found out otherwise). On the odd occasion I have had to jump on a train and get a ticket there (literally twice I think in 10 years), I've gone straight to the conductor before he's got to me and asked for a ticket - again no problem, but something I would only do less than once in a blue moon. Its only from the last few months of starting to post on these forums I've realised in many places its not actually acceptable!

I think a lot of the problem stems from inconsistencies between regions/TOCs, and also new policies which aren't fully communicated, particular in stations where there are no barriers to go through with a ticket (at stations with barriers, you know you need a ticket before boarding even if you're unfamiliar with the area).

As with all these sorts of issues involving the railway, a nationwide policy that is consistently applied would help hugely.

 

[Bertie the bus]

A large proportion of them are chancers. If they encounter a guard they will willingly pay but if they don’t it’s a free ride. The options for guards are limited other than informing them they should have bought a ticket at the station and there is nothing to suggest that will have much of an effect.

The ‘in a rush’ excuse is often a lie. I’ve seen real world examples where I’ve arrived at a station, purchased a ticket and got onto a train only for somebody who was already on the platform when I arrived to tell the guard they didn’t have time to buy a ticket at the station.

Some guards, however, don’t do their company or passengers any favours. There is a station I used now and again where it didn’t have any ticket issuing facilities. I always purchased an off peak ticket from the guard until one day I was sold an anytime ticket. I queried it and they said there was now a ticket machine so I should have purchased it at the station. From then on I always purchased from the TVM until once when somebody was servicing it. I explained to the guard and his reply was it doesn’t matter where I purchase the ticket as it is the same price anyway – meaning he would have incorrectly sold me an off peak anyway when some of his colleagues wouldn’t have.

As for your point about many of the people who do it on the railway wouldn’t do it in a shop – if they thought they could get away with it they probably would. The thing about the railway is that in many circumstances it isn’t that difficult to get away with it.

The inconsistencies between different parts of the country is a red herring. Very few normal passengers will travel from Falmouth – Truro one day and Stockport – Manchester the next. They have absolutely no knowledge of the rules elsewhere or even on different lines in the same part of the country.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

*RANT ALERT"
It's all very well blaming passengers but the train operators need to get their act together and provide the opportunities for people to buy tickets and the up to date information regarding their policies - which seems a long way off seeing that they don't even instruct their own staff properly.
Increasingly on the Thameslink route people are being denied access to trains when they are unable to purchase their ticket from machines (for whatever reason) and either there is no one around to open the barriers or the staff refuse to let people (as probably instructed) to board without buying a ticket. It often takes an unnecessary argument and a printed copy of the rules (which I now have to carry around with me) to convince them and avoid their advice of 'you will have to wait till the ticket office re-opens in 40 mins or so' . It may help if they trained all their station staff to sell tickets rather than just be minders for the ticket gates.

 

[PeterC]

*RANT ALERT"
It's all very well blaming passengers but the train operators need to get their act together and provide the opportunities for people to buy tickets and the up to date information regarding their policies - which seems a long way off seeing that they don't even instruct their own staff properly.
Increasingly on the Thameslink route people are being denied access to trains when they are unable to purchase their ticket from machines (for whatever reason) and either there is no one around to open the barriers or the staff refuse to let people (as probably instructed) to board without buying a ticket. It often takes an unnecessary argument and a printed copy of the rules (which I now have to carry around with me) to convince them and avoid their advice of 'you will have to wait till the ticket office re-opens in 40 mins or so' . It may help if they trained all their station staff to sell tickets rather than just be minders for the ticket gates.

Whenever I start thinking that I use the car too much I see a post like this. The TOCs do themeselves no favours although I largely agree with the OP too.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Personally, I wasn't blaming passengers. I totally agree that there is confusion out there, and I was wondering where it came from.

Standardisation would be helpful and so would consistency in enforcement. It seems what happens to you totally depends on the guard.

 

[sheff1]

Now, I've always lived in a town with a station with a fully functioning ticket office, so have always bought tickets before travelling, so this got me wondering where this concept of "I can buy a ticket on the train/purchase one later" come from?

In these parts it almost certainly come from the introduction of the Paytrains you mentioned in the 1970s (more info here: Paytrain). To travel on these trains you bought your ticket on board, even when boarding at a station with an open booking office.

Over time many people came to believe that the ability to pay on board applied to any train operating in/though the area - not just Paytrains. This belief was reinforced by decades of the almost universal selling of tickets onboard without any penalty or adverse comment by guards. It is only in recent years that TOCs such as EMT moved away from this practice and, even now, it is common for tickets to be sold on board without issue on, for example, TPE services between Sheffield and Doncaster and, despite the introducion of Penalty Fares, many Northern routes.

 

[BanburyBlue]

In these parts it almost certainly come from the introduction of the Paytrains you mentioned in the 1970s (more info here: Paytrain). To travel on these trains you bought your ticket on board, even when boarding at a station with an open booking office.

Over time many people came to believe that the ability to pay on board applied to any train operating in/though the area - not just Paytrains. This belief was reinforced by decades of the almost universal selling of tickets onboard without any penalty or adverse comment by guards. It is only in recent years that TOCs such as EMT moved away from this practice and, even now, it is common for tickets to be sold on board without issue on, for example, TPE services between Sheffield and Doncaster and, despite the introducion of Penalty Fares, many Northern routes.

Thinking about it now, back then (I'm talking 1970's) Banbury station had a big gate and a man there checking tickets, so without a ticket you wouldn't get anywhere near a train (unless you forked out 6p for a platform ticket). Then there seemed to be a concept of open stations, where the ticket person disappeared and access to the platform was left open.

 

[yorkie]

...got me wondering where this concept of "I can buy a ticket on the train/purchase one later" come from? When I was a kid you never used to see a guard come ...

It's the norm on most rural lines, all open access operators (even Kings Cross must allow GC/HT passengers through the gates), and even major stations are not staffed at all hours and many ticket machines dont accept cash.

 

[Haywain]

As for your point about many of the people who do it on the railway wouldn’t do it in a shop – if they thought they could get away with it they probably would.

People try it on all the time in shops, whether it's eating something before getting to the check-out or scanning a cheaper item a couple of times to avoid paying for a more
expensive item (at the self-service tills) or simply feeling it isn't necessary to point out a change error if it's in their favour.

 

[Typhoon]

It seems a strange idea where people think it's okay on the railway but not anywhere else. I mean people wouldn't do it Tesco - "I was running late, so I dashed in to get a Mars Bar, and I was going to pay for it later, or if a member of staff stopped me before the exit". Well some do, but excluding the deliberate fare evaders, most people wouldn't. ...
As I said above, ignoring deliberate fare avoiders, there does seem to be a generally held belief from a significant lump of people that it is okay to get on board without a ticket?

I'm not certain whether it is an exact comparison but Tesco makes it very easy to pay. Besides the regular check-outs my local Tesco has a lane for 'less than 10 items' (or whatever), self scan machines, machines for those who scanned while they shopped and the cigarette counter where you can pay for items - like a Mars bar. Contrast with my local station - ticket office open for 3-and-a-half hours a weekday (but 'staff may not be available during staffing times' - there are days when it is unstaffed), ticket machine (no mention that it only took cards) which has not worked for some time and has now been replaced by a traffic cone. When I used the 'help point' as I needed to pick up a pre-purchased ticket, I was advised to go the next station in the wrong direction. If Tesco made it just as difficult to pay (for instance, if the little Tesco's were largely unstaffed, had a machine by the door which only took cards and didn't always work), I bet shop lifting would be rife!

I am not excusing travelling without a ticket in any way, but once you do it and get away with it, I bet it is easier next time around.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I suppose there are at least three main factors.

The first is that, at a great number of stations, the railway doesn't make it easy to pay the correct fare. If there is a ticket office, it will often have limited opening hours (especially in the afternoons, evenings and weekends) and there will often be a long queue; if there is a ticket machine, many will only accept card despite there being several other acceptable payment methods; and some stations have no facilities at all. So it's a stark contrast to most other times in life where people are expected to pay for a service; the comparison to an unmanned Tesco with only one card-only checkout is probably about right for many stations.

The second issue is the inconsistent application of the rules, and the fact that people may well be confused by the rules applying to boarding at different stations and on different companies. Whilst it is good that guards have discretion to sell a discounted ticket notwithstanding a failure to use available facilities (as there may be a legitimate reason for this), all too often I must say that this isn't accompanied by the requisite warning that should accompany such selling. There isn't enough signage warning of the potential implications of failing to use available ticketing facilities; in my view, all stations with ticketing facilities should have clear Penalty Fares-like signage warning of the potential consequences.

There remains that third issue, that there are some who are soft or hard fare evaders. Only ticket checks or barriers can properly defend against their intentions.

I think the end result of this issue isn't as big as some people might think, with about 3% of revenue going uncollected IIRC. Now 3% isn't ideal, but considering the abovementioned issues I think it's a pretty good figure.

 

[SussexMan]

I suppose there are at least three main factors.

I think a fourth one is around the concept of "well the train is going there anyway so it hasn't cost the company anything if I don't pay". I have a feeling many people would say theft from a shop is wrong and not do it but not paying on a train unless challenged is OK and they would do it.

 

[Belperpete]

I've always lived in a town with a station with a fully functioning ticket office, so have always bought tickets before travelling, so this got me wondering where this concept of "I can buy a ticket on the train/purchase one later" come from?

Outside the metropolitan areas, significant parts of the country have stations that do not have either booking offices or TVMs. If you were born and brought up in such an area, you will be well accustomed to it being accepted practice to buy your ticket on the train. My local line used to be just such a line. Recently it has gained TVMs, and is in a penalty fare area. However, the TVMs are often out of order (there is only one per station), and even when working are unable to issue all types of ticket. In particular, they don't seem to be able to issue the discount tickets used by significant numbers of students going to the local colleges - these tickets still have to be bought on the train. So, even in a Penalty Fare area, there are still significant numbers who have no option but to buy their ticket on the train.

 

[Essan]

Now, I've always lived in a town with a station with a fully functioning ticket office, so have always bought tickets before travelling, so this got me wondering where this concept of "I can buy a ticket on the train/purchase one later" come from? When I was a kid you never used to see a guard come around with a ticket machine on services unless the train served stations without a ticket office, for example, the local stoppers between Banbury and Oxford because stations like King's Sutton didn't have a ticket office or a machine, but never on the Paddington Birmingham Inter-City trains.

Depends where you are, but if you normally only travel on a service where it is normal to purchase a ticket on the train (Cotswold Line for example) - even when it's an "intercity" train (ie HST125 or IET) and there is a ticket office open - then it's understandable that you may assume this practice is normal across the whole network and you can buy a ticket aboard any train.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's fairly common for people to stand on the platform here and make zero effort to buy a ticket even though they have plenty of time to do so and there's no issue about queues.

I've on plenty of occasions heard and seen people dissuade their friends from purchasing a ticket from the booking office with the phrase "buy it on the train" along with some sort of gesture. This behaviour is particularly prevelant on Saturdays amongst under 30's going for days out yet their on a line where the conductor s are pretty good about going through trains and their going to a barriered station. The chances of them getting away are relatively low yet they still try it. I've even been out on a Saturday night and had people complaining to me (having cone back to town) that they had to queue at the barriers at their destination to buy a ticket. The chancers are often egged on by friends the "group think" still thinks that there's a chance even though any rational analysis would say otherwise.

 

[jon0844]

We've already had supermarket comparisons which are always a little controversial, but following the widely publicised video of the people trying to stop shoplifters who had knocked at least one person over (and broken their back) I saw on social media and another forum a lot of comments saying it wasn't that serious a crime and it was theft from a huge corporation that could easily afford it.

It makes you realise that a lot of people have a very skewed outlook on life. They defend the indefensible, perhaps because they actually have no issue with such crimes and may themselves know they'd do the same if the opportunity arises.

I think the same applies for things like benefit fraud, where you justify it to yourself that the Government is greedy or that others get benefits so why not you too.

 

[cuccir]

As others have said, there's a long history of buying on the train as the default in many areas.

On lines where there's only a couple of stations with facilities, my experience is that both TPE and Northern have generally seemed happy to let people boarding there pay on board too (eg, I've seen this very commonly leaving Newcastle on the Tyne Valley Line, and in Barrow-in-Furness on the Cumbria Coast).

 

[Haywain]

I think the same applies for things like benefit fraud, where you justify it to yourself that the Government is greedy or that others get benefits so why not you too.

I think a lot of the people who see no problem with 'theft' from supermarkets and train operators are actually horrified by benefit fraud.

 

[Belperpete]

I've even been out on a Saturday night and had people complaining to me (having cone back to town) that they had to queue at the barriers at their destination to buy a ticket.

If they were hoping to get away without buying a ticket at all, then there is no excuse for such behaviour. However, if they were expecting to buy a ticket on the train, then it is not unreasonable to complain about being delayed.

I have often arrived at my local station, where there is no booking office, only to find the one and only TVM out of action. The guard is unable to sell me a ticket because of the volume of passengers requiring tickets due to the TVM being out of action. I have then had a lengthy queue at my destination to buy a ticket, and so as a result missed my bus. I feel quite justified in complaining in such situations. I arrived with adequate time to buy my ticket, it is not my fault that I was unable to do so. This is one of the reasons I now usually try to buy my ticket on-line prior to travelling. If the TVM is out of order, and so I am unable to collect my ticket, I am then perfectly entitled to travel without a ticket, even in a Penalty Fare zone.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If they were hoping to get away without buying a ticket at all, then there is no excuse for such behaviour. However, if they were expecting to buy a ticket on the train, then it is not unreasonable to complain about being delayed.

I have often arrived at my local station, where there is no booking office, only to find the one and only TVM out of action. The guard is unable to sell me a ticket because of the volume of passengers requiring tickets due to the TVM being out of action. I have then had a lengthy queue at my destination to buy a ticket, and so as a result missed my bus. I feel quite justified in complaining in such situations. I arrived with adequate time to buy my ticket, it is not my fault that I was unable to do so. This is one of the reasons I now usually try to buy my ticket on-line prior to travelling. If the TVM is out of order, and so I am unable to collect my ticket, I am then perfectly entitled to travel without a ticket, even in a Penalty Fare zone.

Just to be clear I'm talking about people who have been standing on the platform having arrived with plenty of time to purchase a ticket with an open booking office on the same platform they are departing from with no queue or little queue.

 

[Starmill]

For lots of people it's simply the way it has always been. You buy your ticket from the guard - where else would you get it from? Some people even think the train companies don't take cards because of it, when the reality is now that if you don't pay by card some attempt to criminalise you.

I don't think many people will see the train companies as victims from fare evasion anyway, in exactly the same way that most people won't be upset that a huge firm (e.g. Tesco) might occasionally lose a few pounds through shoplifting.

 

[Bookd]

Of course I would not defend fare dodging but it could be stopped - at a cost.
Have barriers at every station throughout operating hours, which would need staff to be on duty to supervise (perhaps equipped with a ticket machine) and dodging should be virtually defeated. The cost of doing this would be enormous, and it is probably cheaper to live with the loss of fare income.

 

[Belperpete]

Just to be clear I'm talking about people who have been standing on the platform having arrived with plenty of time to purchase a ticket with an open booking office on the same platform they are departing from with no queue or little queue.

You might be, but the subject of this thread is about people getting the idea that it acceptable to board a train without having first bought a ticket. As I and others have pointed out, in many places it is perfectly acceptable.

However, having stated that there are plenty of places and cases where it is perfectly acceptable for people to board without a ticket, I have to say that I think the main reason that people think that it is acceptable, is because in most cases it is tolerated. My station is now in a Penalty Fare area, but guards routinely sell tickets on the train without any suggestion that the person buying the ticket on the train has done anything wrong. They just sell the same ticket as the person could have bought at the TVM or ticket office. I can't ever recall anyone within my earshot ever being charged a penalty fare. Repeatedly letting someone get away with something sets a precedent - it is then unrealistic in my view to then claim that the person should have realised that they were doing wrong. To take the supermarket analogy, if a supermarket catches you walking out without paying for your shopping, they do not just let you pay for your shopping and go on your way without pointing out that you have done anything wrong!

The only way to beat this perception that it is acceptable to board without a ticket is to take a zero-tolerance approach, anything else is by definition tolerance. However, as Bookd says, for this to work, the TOCs would have to provide adequate ticket-purchasing facilities. Certainly the one TVM on my station is nowhere near adequate in the morning rush-hour, which I suspect is why guards don't enforce the penalty fare policy - they would have a riot on their hands if they did. I suspect that most people on this forum could name many stations that come nowhere near the 5 minute target for selling tickets in the rush-hour. Let alone all the stations that have no ticketing facilities at all. It would be too expensive for the TOCs to provide proper ticketing facilities at every station on the network. Which is why boarding without a ticket is tacitly accepted, with just the occasional clamp-down as a token effort to enforce the rules. It is perhaps not a coincidence that those areas that are hotest on penalising for ticketless travel are those that have the best ticket-issuing facilities, such as L&SE.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Of course I would not defend fare dodging but it could be stopped - at a cost.
Have barriers at every station throughout operating hours, which would need staff to be on duty to supervise (perhaps equipped with a ticket machine) and dodging should be virtually defeated. The cost of doing this would be enormous, and it is probably cheaper to live with the loss of fare income.

Indeed. The mere cost of installing the barriers is often quoted at between tens and hundreds of thousands of pounds for each station. If there's, say, 2000 stations to barrier (that's being conservative!), that could cost £100m or more. It's simply not going to happen; the additional amount of revenue captured is never going to pay for that over the lifetime of the barriers, let alone the cost of manning the barriers (though of course it would be possible to have all the barriers at less busy stations remotely monitored, similarly to how many level crossings are done now, and like The Netherlands does it).

Total barriering also wouldn't stop 'donutting' (where a passenger buys two tickets, each one along the line from their origin and destination, to pass through the barriers at each, without having a ticket to cover the central part of their journey). Only on-train checks can detect that, almost defeating the point of the barriers then. Barriering works in the Netherlands because it is a much smaller country where for the majority of journeys, it's simply not worth it to donut because of the pricing structure. A bit like travel within the London Zones.

 

[Tetchytyke]

When I was growing up in West Yorkshire my local station's ticket office was shut by lunchtime. My local station was Shipley, a pretty busy station. The other nearby stations had no ticket selling facilities at all. For trips into Leeds after (or instead of!) school I paid on the train. We all did. Even when they (briefly) brought in penalty fares we did, maybe putting 5p in the Permit to Travel machine if it was the one day a year it was working.

I always ask: what's wrong with paying on the train? It works. Why sweat it? And certainly why try and penalise anyone who doesn't like using TVMs? I don't like them, few of them make any sense and some of them are actively deceitful (e.g. Northern TVMs which used to charge the railcard minimum fare even when the undiscounted fare is cheaper; maybe they still do). What's wrong with handing a bit of blue paper to the guard and getting a bit of orange paper in exchange?

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is perhaps not a coincidence that those areas that are hotest on penalising for ticketless travel are those that have the best ticket-issuing facilities, such as L&SE.

I definitely don't agree with that. When I lived in Hemel my nearest station, Apsley, had a ticket office that was shut more than it was open. The opening times were a work of fiction. If the ticket office didn't open on a Monday morning (as was often the case) the queue at the solitary TVM could be 40 deep.

And then London Midland, as was, were incredibly heavy handed with passengers without tickets. After one argument too many with an RPI I kept a copy of a letter with me from LM saying I could pay on the train if I was using cash.

 

[theblackwatch]

For lots of people it's simply the way it has always been. You buy your ticket from the guard - where else would you get it from?

That is very true, and on my local line people need to be re-educated, as 'the railway' is binning the ticket purchase which has been in place since the 1970s. 'Paytrain' was heavily promoted when it came in, there were no ticket purchase facilities at stations and if my memory is right, you couldn't get through tickets to destinations other than on the local line.

 

[Stew998]

Fact is most people have no idea of the potentially serious consequences of boarding a train without a valid ticket. No excuse in law but fact nonetheless.

Combine that with the relatively low cost of a local fare and variations in how on board ticketing is handled both by TOC staff and Revenue Protection Inspectors it's hardly surprising that people with no intention of evasion get caught out (as opoosed to caught).

I'm well aware and have an expensive season ticket for my commute but on occasions have boarded trains either without a valid ticket for a different local journey or with my children when I've not had time to get a ticket or can't work out how to get the ticket I want from the TVM. (Have bought permits to travel on occasion). Frankly as a season ticket holder I'd expect to be cut some slack...

Clearly guards and RPIs have some latitude but some have better inter-personal skills than others, as do passengers....

 

[Starmill]

I always ask: what's wrong with paying on the train? It works. Why sweat it?

Exactly. Ticket gates and excess fares windows at major terminals, with conductors and some ticket examiners where they are most needed are probably a lot more cost-effective than about 700 ticket vending machines that are out of order with alarming frequency, don't accept cash, can't sell some tickets, including one of the most popular ranger tickets, the West Yorkshire Dayrover and Family Dayrover (cheaper than some singles for a group). They would still catch almost all of the 'chancers' as they are almost all going to Leeds, Bradford Wakefield or Huddersfield. Just ensure that gates and an excess fares point at all of these stations are available full time (i.e. gates closed at all times trains are running). That would be a much more effective use of revenue protection resources. Increased onboard ticket checks and gates that are always closed would also promote the idea that you must pay for your journey much more than yellow Penalty Fares stickers, threats, ticket machines that don't always say 'ticket machine' on them and relatively infrequent onboard checks ever will. Of course, this may not allow the train company to charge £20 to someone who got on the train when the ticket machine wasn't working, who then pays up because they know no better.