People's attitude to buying tickets.

[Mutant Lemming]

How so? In both cases you have obtained a product or srvice without having paid the appropriate charge. Theft is theft. It makes no difference whether it's a Mars Bar, a train ride, a bottle of whiskey, a tv or someones car from their driveway, it's still theft.

It's not quite as simple when the same Mars bar ends up being a different price depending on what time of day it is, how old you are and whether you are physically given the opportunity to pay for it or not. Buying a mars bar is a simple transaction - you go into the shop and you pay the stated price. Buying a train ticket is a more complex affair not made easier when the point of sale is a machine.

 

[Haywain]

It's not quite as simple when the same Mars bar ends up being a different price depending on what time of day it is, how old you are and whether you are physically given the opportunity to pay for it or not. Buying a mars bar is a simple transaction - you go into the shop and you pay the stated price. Buying a train ticket is a more complex affair not made easier when the point of sale is a machine.

Which has precisely nothing to do with deliberately avoiding paying any fare at all.

 

[Antman]

Which has precisely nothing to do with deliberately avoiding paying any fare at all.

But it has everything to do with intending passengers being unsure about which train ticket to buy or not being able to buy a ticket at all.

No excuse for deliberate fare evasion but I think most people see it on a par with non payment of council tax or a TV licence rather than the heinous crime some people on here seem to think it is.

 

[kristiang85]

But it has everything to do with intending passengers being unsure about which train ticket to buy or not being able to buy a ticket at all.

No excuse for deliberate fare evasion but I think most people see it on a par with non payment of council tax or a TV licence rather than the heinous crime some people on here seem to think it is.

Indeed. Buying something in a shop is a very simple transaction - you want a Mars bar, you see it on the shelf for 60p, you give the shop 60p and you get your Mars bar.

To an irregular train user (or indeed a visitor to the UK), you could well expect that if you're standing at Station A, and you want to get to Station B, you can buy a ticket and you will be able to get there. However, our train system then stipulates your ticket has to be valid for a certain time period, certain train company, certain routing, or even certain train. I just get so annoyed when I see people trying to do the right thing, getting it wrong, and being heavily penalised for it.

In some cases it might then well lead them to deliberate fare evasion later on - "well I've already given the railway £200 after what I perceive as an injustice over a mistake for a small fare I tried to pay, so I'm bloody well not going to give them a £5 fare when I know there are no barriers to stop me...".

 

[Clip]

However, our train system then stipulates your ticket has to be valid for a certain time period, certain train company, certain routing, or even certain train.

Not all tickets stipulate all of these things apart from route

 

[kristiang85]

Not all tickets stipulate all of these things apart from route

I know, hence my use of 'or', but that doesn't detract from my point...

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Which has precisely nothing to do with deliberately avoiding paying any fare at all.

But it does have a lot to do with people being stigmatised as some kind of criminal for not realising the vagaries of a ticketing minefield that can snare the unwary who just want to travel from point to point.

 

[Roadtrip45]

I think using apps like Trainline can be really useful as you can buy tickets so easily, plus you rarely loose them.

 

[kristiang85]

I think using apps like Trainline can be really useful as you can buy tickets so easily, plus you rarely loose them.

But you can buy any tickets from any TOC without charge. I tend to see trainline causing more problems than it solves.

 

[R G NOW.]

I think the best idea, is to have a ticket vending machine on a train, perhaps next to the toilets. This would allow people to get a ticket after boarding the train. These machines would be used as a last resort, if say a person finds a ticket office closed (if there is one) and the machine also not working.(if there is one) This would put an end to conductors issuing many tickets and would allow them to move through the train checking tickets.
The machine on the train would be programmed by a system, as to where the train is travelling to, and only issue tickets for the journey.

 

[Haywain]

The machine on the train would be programmed by a system, as to where the train is travelling to, and only issue tickets for the journey.

Exactly how would this deal with people wanting tickets for journeys involving a change? How about all methods of payment? How would people get to it on a crowded train? How would you deal with people who "don't know about the machine"?

 

[35B]

I think the best idea, is to have a ticket vending machine on a train, perhaps next to the toilets. This would allow people to get a ticket after boarding the train. These machines would be used as a last resort, if say a person finds a ticket office closed (if there is one) and the machine also not working.(if there is one) This would put an end to conductors issuing many tickets and would allow them to move through the train checking tickets.
The machine on the train would be programmed by a system, as to where the train is travelling to, and only issue tickets for the journey.

Given the number of times I have been on trains with incorrectly displayed destinations, or where customer information is telling me I'm on the inbound leg, or where the computers are just wrong, I'd love to know how you'd make this failsafe.

 

[sarahj]

Given the number of times I have been on trains with incorrectly displayed destinations, or where customer information is telling me I'm on the inbound leg, or where the computers are just wrong, I'd love to know how you'd make this failsafe.

I've seen them on Trams and such in Germany and they click through just before the next station. In Cologne the PF is about 80 euros, no ifs, no buts and you get a fine even if you have a ticket but not popped it into the E machine.

In training we were told about 10% will buy a ticket, no matter what. 10% will never buy a ticket, no matter what and we had to search out the 80% who will buy when challenged or have to.

 

[TurbostarFan]

That is very true, and on my local line people need to be re-educated, as 'the railway' is binning the ticket purchase which has been in place since the 1970s. 'Paytrain' was heavily promoted when it came in, there were no ticket purchase facilities at stations and if my memory is right, you couldn't get through tickets to destinations other than on the local line.

Funnily enough Greater Anglia still do that at their "Paytrain" stations unless a ticket office is open.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Given the number of times I have been on trains with incorrectly displayed destinations, or where customer information is telling me I'm on the inbound leg, or where the computers are just wrong, I'd love to know how you'd make this failsafe.

Fair point, maybe allow it to purchase tickets to another destination with the origin being entered in manually?

 

[al78]

Well cost-wise it may be minimal loss to the TOC, but that simply isn't the point. If one person thinks they can do it because there is minimal impact, why not more people? And if enough people do it the TOC starts to lose serious amounts of revenue, and the service will eventually get pulled at a loss to all, including those remaining honest and paying their way. There is no excusing those who deliberately seek to evade fares, none whatsoever.

Yes I agree with you. Dodging a fare might not inflict a loss of a physical object to the TOC, but it does inflict a loss, it is effectively an externalised cost (TOC may raise fares to compensate for lost revenue through fare dodging, which hits honest passengers), so in this sense it is no better than shoplifting, which also inflicts a loss on someone else, just more direct and obvious.

 

[davart]

I think the key difference between comparing say a theft at Tesco vs non-paying passengers is that the entire purpose of a train is to get people from A to B in a timely manner.

Sometimes, there are long queues or ticket machines that don't offer the right ticket. Occasionally there are no ticketing facilities available.

I remember back in the 90s going to Sheffield from a local station, if the cash machine in my local village was empty, it could be difficult to buy a ticket unless one had a credit card. Often, I'd have to get cash at Sheffield and buy a return there.

We must remember that people on their way to work can't really be late. If there's a long queue and a train is departing, what should a person do? It's easy to say allow more time but one cannot always predict how busy a ticket office or machine will be, not to mention people who faff about.

It's great that there are so many options these days, apps, online, tvm as well as ticket office and conductors.

As long as someone actually attempts to make payment before leaving the final destination, what really is the problem?

Make it easy to pay, make it simple and make it quick!

I tend to use the apps and online railcards now. They're great timesavers. Just always carry a charger just in case the battery needs a top up.

 

[njamescouk]

get on bus, buy ticket when "challenged" by conductor (showing my age here, but still like this on Sheffield trams)

get on train, buy ticket from the guard. if the TOC can't be bothered to collect the fares why worry?

 

[Haywain]

get on bus, buy ticket when "challenged" by conductor (showing my age here, but still like this on Sheffield trams)

get on train, buy ticket from the guard. if the TOC can't be bothered to collect the fares why worry?

When you go to a shop and pick up what you want, do you then go to the till or to the exit? What if there's a queue at the till and you're late for work?

 

[BigCj34]

How about a poster stating what the rules are at every station. Maybe a traffic light system.

Red: A passenger MUST buy a ticket at this station as there are facilities available for as long as the trains are running, or get fined.
Amber: Passengers MUST buy a ticket when the ticket office is open or the machine is accessible, otherwise purchase one on the train. Failure to purchase when possible gets fined.
Green: No facilities, purchase ticket on the train.

Thinking about it, amber would promote some grey areas, such as with machines that only take cards or ticket offices that are not open when they are supposed to be.

 

[sheff1]

Thinking about it, amber would promote some grey areas, such as with machines that only take cards or ticket offices that are not open when they are supposed to be.

Or machines that don't, or ticket offices that won't, sell the ticket you require.

Related to this, a notice on the TVMs at Sheffield states that some tickets (i.e. Groupsave; Rover and Ranger; Advance Ticket; Special Promotion ticket) are not available from the machine and adds "To purchase one of the above tickets, please speak to a member of staff on train". Obviously whoever decided on that advice was fully aware of the reputation of the ticket office, but not that Advance tickets are not sold on the train.

 

[cholsey-choose]

I quite often eat a snack at Tesco when I do my shopping, or one of the cookies at Lidl, and pay on the way out.

 

[Clip]

if the TOC can't be bothered to collect the fares why worry?

Because apart from certain open access operators, if you do this and facilities are provided at the station then you instantly have committed an offence and if you get caught the consequences could be rather expensive.

 

[GodAtum]

When you go to a shop and pick up what you want, do you then go to the till or to the exit? What if there's a queue at the till and you're late for work?

I quite often eat a snack at Tesco when I do my shopping, or one of the cookies at Lidl, and pay on the way out.

Yes but you do PAY for your items. I think we should follow the USA example, eg at their petrol stations you need to pay before. Our petrol stations give more benefit of doubt.

 

[cholsey-choose]

Yes but you do PAY for your items. I think we should follow the USA example, eg at their petrol stations you need to pay before. Our petrol stations give more benefit of doubt.

Yes but the point is that I don't see the difference between paying on the way out of Lidl and paying on the way out of my destination station.

I have always thought the way gas stations work in the UK is a bit silly; the American system works so well (though it can mean you need to go in and queue twice).

 

[Darandio]

Yes but the point is that I don't see the difference between paying on the way out of Lidl and paying on the way out of my destination station.

Give many the that opportunity and they will just walk out at the destination station without paying. Using your comparison, it's exactly the same as those who get something from the deli/bakery counter in a supermarket, eat it on the way round then discard the empty box near the freezer section. Seems to be quite a regular thing up here.

 

[Typhoon]

Sometimes I don't think the industry helps itself. I recently took a train journey of less than 15 minutes during which the 'On-board Supervisor' twice apologised for not being able to issue tickets even though every station it passed through was a penalty fare station. There was a suggestion that if you were changing trains, you could buy a ticket on that train. Not even a mention that passengers should have purchased a ticket before boarding so anyone listening to the announcements could make an assumption that purchase on board was OK.

Additionally, many of the passengers who boarded at the same station as me will have reached the platform without going anywhere near the notice that states that it is a requirement to purchase a ticket before boarding.

 

[52290]

When I was last in Germany I travelled on the Keolis service which operates from Ebermannstadt to Ebern via Bamberg (nice branch lines and nice beer!). I noticed that a TVM was provided within the train. I don't think anyone tried it on though, the conductor walked through after every station, remembering whose ticket she had already seen and there was no sudden rush to the machine when she appeared.
Germany though is a country where you are expected to pay for your beer after, and not before, you've drunk it in most bars.

 

[tsr]

Sometimes I don't think the industry helps itself. I recently took a train journey of less than 15 minutes during which the 'On-board Supervisor' twice apologised for not being able to issue tickets even though every station it passed through was a penalty fare station. There was a suggestion that if you were changing trains, you could buy a ticket on that train. Not even a mention that passengers should have purchased a ticket before boarding so anyone listening to the announcements could make an assumption that purchase on board was OK.

Additionally, many of the passengers who boarded at the same station as me will have reached the platform without going anywhere near the notice that states that it is a requirement to purchase a ticket before boarding.

If it had an OBS then it would have been a Southern route, and many of them do interchange with routes where there are stations without ticket purchasing facilities. At many other locations the ability to purchase many types of tickets (or sometimes any) from the TVM is probably not something which is realistic. You also have some stations with an hourly (or lower) service where people do, realistically, board a train without tickets because they don't want to miss the service. And then there are those people who will only buy a ticket onboard for whatever reason.

The first half of those reasons are reasonable in the eyes of legislation, the second half not so - but nevertheless, whatever the reasons of the passengers, it is polite for people to have their expectations managed, so they can get straight to the point of asking where else they can purchase their ticket - which does happen.

 

[Typhoon]

If it had an OBS then it would have been a Southern route, and many of them do interchange with routes where there are stations without ticket purchasing facilities. At many other locations the ability to purchase many types of tickets (or sometimes any) from the TVM is probably not something which is realistic. You also have some stations with an hourly (or lower) service where people do, realistically, board a train without tickets because they don't want to miss the service. And then there are those people who will only buy a ticket onboard for whatever reason.

The first half of those reasons are reasonable in the eyes of legislation, the second half not so - but nevertheless, whatever the reasons of the passengers, it is polite for people to have their expectations managed, so they can get straight to the point of asking where else they can purchase their ticket - which does happen.

Sorry, I used the term 'On-board Supervisor' (in quotes) because I am reasonably confident that is not what he was, I was trying to be vague as I would not want the staff member identified and penalised in any way - he was genuinely trying to be helpful. I realise that your response was intended to be helpful but to board that train you would have had to get on at a Penalty Fare station, or transfer (at a Penalty Fare station) from a train which had gone through a raft of penalty fare stations*. I do understand that there may be reasons why a passenger has not got a ticket (the machine at my nearest station is some way short of reliable) but something along the lines of 'I am coming through the train now if there is anything you wish to ask me' would give those with genuine reasons the opportunity to ask and be given advice (including about ticket purchase) - he did walk through the train. Of the stations I use most, I can't remember many, if any, posters advising passengers that they need to purchase a ticket before travelling.

The reason I mentioned this it does give those who have no intention of paying the opportunity to argue that it was the staff member's fault as, by his own admission, his machine did not work.

* - my misleading description of the staff member has not helped at all, sorry.