People's attitude to buying tickets.

[jellybaby]

Try to pay at a Peak District National Park car park and its probably by card or phone only.

I was in the Peak District about 6 weeks ago and the two car parks I parked in were both cash only (one national park, one local council). Massive nuisance, our group just managed to find enough change between us although not the right amount so had to overpay.

 

[LMS 4F]

Surely part of the problem is the number of different ticket types, times they can be used and rail card options all of which mean using a TVM or purchasing at a ticket office is slowed down considerably.
The number of options for rail cards alone the last time I used my local machine was astounding.
Simplify the whole system across the whole network so that all the staff understand it and give the passengers a chance to understand it as well.
Having said that some of the posts on here strike me as being made by people who shouldn't be allowed out on their own, given their reasons for not having a ticket or using someone else's Oyster or other travel card.

 

[Killingworth]

Well yes, but it's not quite as straightforward as that.

Quite, this thread isn't about the practicality of buying tickets but the attitude to buying tickets.

There are many who take a great deal of trouble to ensure they've ordered their ticket well in advance online. They've probably gone to their local station to pick them up, also well in advance. When the TVM was out of order they've uttered a silent curse and returned the following day or gone to another station. They are one extreme.

The other is the daily commuter who stands near the front door in the front carriage. Or when the guard comes down the train they're apparently asleep or so engrossed in their mobile device as not to notice. More often than not the guard will walk past. Some do have tickets, of course. These people are chancing it but are likely to avoid payment on most days with most Northern trains into all but a small number of stations where there's barrier control. They are the ones that Penalty Fares may catch.

In the middle are the ones who know exactly what they're doing. They've obtained a promise to pay ticket (so they've demonstrated ability to use the TVM, and said they haven't a valid card with which to pay) and have the cash ready to pay if challenged. Many of these should be buying season tickets* but playing it this way are 'saving' more money. They are protected against any penalties. Yet I'd bet a large sum that at least 95% have a valid card they could pay with.

I'm sure they may think they're not fare dodging and that it's the TOC's problem not theirs. It is! But they are deliberately evading payment, legally

Can I think of a better system? No, but more focused enforcement might be effective.

I'm quite used to seeing the guard issuing tickets to passengers who've boarded Northern's stopping service for Manchester at Sheffield, a station with a booking office and a dozen or more working TVMs.

Northern have got wise and users may get a surprise when they meet 6 revenue protection staff at Dore on an evening. I sense more tickets are being bought.

*The season ticket option wouldn't apply for many from my station. Some don't work 5 or more days a week. We have an excellent commuter service into town (4 trains in about 35 minutes) but only hourly out again in the evening so many make other arrangements.

 

[yorkie]

We seem to be going round in circles now; I don't think there is much that can really be added to this thread that hasn't been said before.

I'm sure they may think they're not fare dodging and that it's the TOC's problem not theirs. It is! But they are deliberately evading payment, legally

Can I think of a better system? No....

This is something that is entirely your opinion; paying using cash is not actually "deliberately evading payment". If you can't think of an alternative system then I guess that is that, but if you do want to explore this any further, feel free to create a new thread and I'll disagree with the proposals there.

 

[island]

I agree with Killingworth to the extent that someone who has a personal card that is accepted, that has sufficient funds, that has no other proximate need to keep those funds available, and that they have no reason whatsoever not to use other than “wanting to pay cash” commits a fare evasion offence by not using a card-only TVM when that is the only method of buying a ticket.

Proving that all of the above clauses are true is likely to be challenging. But if the one and only reason you have for not buying a ticket is that you are claiming you want to pay in cash when you are 100% capable of paying by card, that is a “pay only when challenged” attitude and case law is clear what that attitude means.

 

[island]

I have taken up your invitation to discuss on a new thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/paying-only-when-challenged-–-cash-vs-card.197292/

 

[Killingworth]

I was in the Peak District about 6 weeks ago and the two car parks I parked in were both cash only (one national park, one local council). Massive nuisance, our group just managed to find enough change between us although not the right amount so had to overpay.

A string of parking meters was installed on the old A road leading out of Castleton towards Mam Tor n,ow closed to through traffic. All were vandalised within months and the posts and battered remains of the meters need removing. The cost of replacement is clearly greater than the likely revenue raised after allowing for cost of meters and collection of cash from remote locations. Indirectly the lobby that opposed charging for parking won, as did those opposing installation of card only meters.

Sadly, remote station TVMs would probably get vandalised for any cash. The existing facilities for those who have genuine inability to use a card make it too easy for those who are taking advantage to avoid payment.

Working in the Peak District I know cash is used a lot more than in the city, and many younger people are phased by the thought of paying for anything in cash. I don't carry much cash but keep a few coins in the car for parking meters.

Catering for both cash and cards, reliably, in remote locations is a challenge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Catering for both cash and cards, reliably, in remote locations is a challenge.

The subset of people who own a car and have no debit card is infinitessimally tiny. Therefore, to me, moving to card only payment for parking makes absolute sense. If you are in the tiny percentage of car owners who do not have a debit card, get a pre-paid card exclusively for parking use.

This is rather different from rail where a large number of passengers are unaccompanied children.

If the signal is poor, use chip and PIN and don't bother authorising the transactions as they are small anyway. (Doing this for contactless is not permitted other than in "transit mode").

 

[Llanigraham]

The subset of people who own a car and have no debit card is infinitessimally tiny. Therefore, to me, moving to card only payment for parking makes absolute sense. If you are in the tiny percentage of car owners who do not have a debit card, get a pre-paid card exclusively for parking use.

This is rather different from rail where a large number of passengers are unaccompanied children.

If the signal is poor, use chip and PIN and don't bother authorising the transactions as they are small anyway. (Doing this for contactless is not permitted other than in "transit mode").

All well and good until the parking operator won't accept that there can be a lack of phone signal!
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/llangrannog-parking-car-park-fine-16999213

 

[Bletchleyite]

All well and good until the parking operator won't accept that there can be a lack of phone signal!
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/llangrannog-parking-car-park-fine-16999213

Clearly an operator of anything not doing it properly can be an issue (several TOCs might do well to note this). But Chip and PIN doesn't require the company receiving the payment to do an authorisation (unlike contactless), they can elect not to at their risk. But car parking payments aren't big sums, so the chance of them bouncing is relatively low overall. So if the area has poor phone signal for connecting the machine to the Internet to perform authorisations, then just don't offer contactless, just offer C&P.

If you mean phone signal to phone up and register an issue, that could be true of a cash accepting machine too.

 

[yorkie]

It seems we've exhausted the subject of People's attitude to buying tickets, and we have a thread for the suggestion to force people to use debit/credit cards, so I will now lock this thread.

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else, such as car parking machines, feel free to create a thread in the appropriate area.