PEP replacement - Merseyrail/GN

[jopsuk]

In short, the points that I will make in the email are listed below. Please let me know about your thoughts, criticisms, suggestions and such. I will post the email transcript when I send it, along with any replies.

• Introduction: greeting, "Please forward this to the relevant department or persons" and making my initial point
• Benefits of a combined order: efficiency, cost-saving. Should I suggest the Class 378? If so, work for Litchurch Lane. A proven design, service around London

• Conclusion

Out if interest, why do you think they will send you anything beyond "we thank you for your interest"?

The orders will not be combined. Not in this universe. They may end up ordering the same units (though who will be ordering the GN ones is a huge unknown) but they will not join forces; it simply won't happen and some random emailing them to suggest doing so will change nothing.

 

[150001]

If you want Litchurch Lane to build it, you watch how it will be delivered late and be falling apart within a year...

On a more constructive note, hasn't the Electrostar come out of production? If so then a new design will be needed, which isn't proven.

I'd say the products are very good! Fine, the trains are always late but classes such as the 375 or 378 aren't falling apart and the 378s for certain are brilliant. Derby also helps to provide some jobs for the UK. In terms of the train the Aventra would be a good choice, although I would have liked to have seen a Class 378 with a Class 377 interior. Also on a different approach a CSRE class would be a idea too

 

[tbtc]

I was thinking that. What's to stop me building a train that doesn't have a BSI coupler but instead has an ainsworth74 coupler that just happens to be compatible with BSI couplers?

I don't think anyone could stop that (in the way that Ford can't stop people making spare parts that happen to be compatible for their cars)?

Universal couplers work well on model railways after all

 

[HSTEd]

What you refer to as 'Sprinter type' couplings are a German design (BSI), not BREL, can't really see how they can be proprietary to Bombardier.

It is not the issue with the BSI coupling itself, but you have to account for where the multiple working connectors are located relative to the mechanical connector itself.

You could probably rerig a multiple working set up that is Sprinter compatible but that would almost require near total rewriting of TMS set-ups, which has such an enormous cost that noone would be able to make any money competing for the orders.

I doubt you would want to standardise on BSI though, if you were going to standardise across the entire railway you really should use the C-AKv

 

[mallard]

Surely the days of having raw control signals cabled through the train must be numbered? Do any trains, worldwide, have a digital command system? Should require far less cabling, improved reliability (less connectors to damage/get dirty) and be no less safe.

It should also provide a perfect opportunity to standardise the multiple working system.

 

[D365]

The ERTMS installation and other ECML upgrades should improve the case for new Moorgate-bound rolling stock. I will use this as justification for a joint order.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm sorry but I have to ask this again, why do you suppose Merseyrail (or anyone else you email) will do anything other than reply "Thanks for your thoughts" and then promptly bin it? I'm sorry but this just seems a pointless exercise.

 

[jon0844]

Can't do any harm to post these suggestions on the next FCC 'meet the directors' forum.

Might be worth changing your name to Peter Skuce though.

 

[D365]

I was thinking about asking on the MTD forum next time, although it will probably be a new franchise ordering any new Moorgate stock. The new franchisee will take over in 2013, in time for the Thameslink Class "700" to be introduced.

I'm taking credit for anything that does happen, worth a try at least

 

[jon0844]

It's really not clear what the plans are for the Moorgate branch, but not being included in the new Thameslink franchise makes it quite clear it will be separate.

The likelihood of East Coast taking over seems rather unlikely (stupid even), but I met someone from Cubic last week at Hatfield who said that he's still of the belief that TfL will take over stations to WGC to become part of London Overground - and extend Oyster acceptance (irrespective of any ITSO-compliant smartcard system that might form the new Thameslink franchise).

The 378 might be an old train, but I am sure that if LO did take over (and this is still to this day just a rumour, but one that lots of different people seem to be talking about) then we'd want something similar to this. If that also suits over regions then so be it, but otherwise there's a good chance that TfL would only think/care about itself.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's really not clear what the plans are for the Moorgate branch, but not being included in the new Thameslink franchise makes it quite clear it will be separate.

Just for balance, it did not appear to be definitely excluded either, according to the clarification bulletin of Jan 7th :

Q. Can you confirm that the Thameslink franchise will retain all current Great Northern services operated by First Capital Connect, including those that ‘remain domestic to the East Coast Main Line’ (i.e. those that originate/terminate at Kings Cross and Moorgate)

A. This has not been finally decided. However, for the purposes of this PQQ you can assume that the future franchise will retain all current GN services.

 

[jopsuk]

In the short-term (up to 2020?) the Moorgate branch/GN Inners, Cambridge Express and Peterborough fast services are due to remain part of the merged Thameslink/South Central super-franchise, though I would have thought there will be ways of transfering routes out of an existing franchise to another mid-contract if all parties can come to an agreement.

Whoever it is that ends up ordering the stock though will do so:
A: entirely seperately from Merseyrail
B: without caring what an industry outsider who emailed several years previously thinks the best way forward is. I'm not trying to be mean here, I'm just saying that no matter what you say in this email of yours, it will be roundly ignored, and any similarity between your proposals and what they actually do will be merely because they're fairly obvious ideas.

 

[317666]

I think that if a 378-style train was to be ordered, it should have 2+2 seating rather than sideways, as unlike the London Overground which has people making short hop journeys within the London suburbs, the Great Northern electrics take people from the Hertfordshire suburbs into the city, which is a longer journey, and if you ask me is too long to have to sit sideways or stand up the whole way.

 

[D365]

Alright, I won't waste too much brainpower on the email. I think it's worth a go anyway, you never know!

I will mention that sideways seating (as in the LO 378s) is not suitable for either Merseyrail or GN, as they are more suburban than metro in characteristics. 2+2 should do the trick.

 

[asylumxl]

It's also worth adding, what may seem obvious and sensible to most normal people and rail enthusiasts alike is not so for the rail industry.

I do believe logic and intelligence are notindustry wide standard, and any vague shimmer is quietly squashed soon after with the mighty iron fist of idiocy...

 

[jon0844]

I'd go for a mix of seating like the S8s which do a similar distance (possibly more) than the Moorgate trains that might go as far as Letchworth.

Ideally, if they were made in fixed 6-car formation then I'd seek to install toilets on them too (being fixed, you could perhaps install fewer toilets overall than in a 3-car formation), but doubt that would be an option on any future train order for this route.

 

[150001]

Alright, I won't waste too much brainpower on the email. I think it's worth a go anyway, you never know!

I will mention that sideways seating (as in the LO 378s) is not suitable for either Merseyrail or GN, as they are more suburban than metro in characteristics. 2+2 should do the trick.

I would think that the 378 with that interior would be perfect!

 

[D365]

The logic [or lack of] within the government would be to keep East Coast, take franchises back into public ownership as they expire in the next few years and not commence any full-scale privatisation in any department. It's shocking to read that billions are wasted every year by running the railways privately.

I'm having an off-topic moan, sorry! That's exactly why I want to get into the transport industry though; so I can implement logic and fresh ideas into projects.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think an interior like the Munich Underground C Stock would be great! - pictures near the bottom of the gallery

 

[jon0844]

TOCs take a tiny amount per pound, so the real way to save money is to find a way of reducing costs - and that is pretty much down to Network Rail.

I'd personally like to see the whole railway run as TfL runs things in London, but even then we'd still have the cost of maintaining the network and I doubt prices would come crashing down.

 

[D365]

I thought Merseyrail works like London Overground on a concession or something?

 

[150001]

I'd say under TOCs, things have got much better. In the 70 and 80s of BR the railway looked in need of investment and BR had a rather drab, poor image. The 150s when under BR looked old after only a few years. Under TOCs trains such as the Class 455s look much better and presents a better image. We need less TOCs with a Welsh one, Eastern one, Southern London and SouthWest, with a Northern franchise. This would save costs but still keep the smartness of privatization.

 

[D365]

I think the government are gradually increasing the size and thus reducing the number of franchise areas (TOCs). Yes, I'm sure some companies have done quite well (Chiltern and Virgin?), but not NXEC or NXEA, from what I've read here.

 

[507 001]

I'm fairly certain that anything that involves any type of longitudinal seating would be most unpopular up here, we do have quite a few long journeys on merseyrail.

 

[HSTEd]

Is there any reason Moorgate could not just be served by shortened 120m Class 700s?
I assume the Thameslink units will have end escape doors right?

 

[swt_passenger]

I assume the Thameslink units will have end escape doors right?

Possibly, but it was not explicitly required according to the spec:

10.2 It is an essential requirement that the new Thameslink train shall have an appropriate means of emergency egress, bearing in mind the operational routes over which they will operate. This may be by end or side egress.
10.3 The Department is working with the Train Operators to develop cab layout options. A full width driving cab with a central driving position is preferred but is subject to the requirement to achieve emergency evacuation in an appropriate manner. Requirements will be finalised before the ITT is issued.

But cab end layouts are pretty flexible, as seen with the Electrostar/Turbostar family, the cab front is a modular item.

 

[D365]

I still don't understand what prevents most non-PEP EMUs from using the Northern City Line (Moorgate); is it tunnel dimensions or equipment on carriage roofs?

 

[Electrostar]

I love the 378s and think they've done wonders for the Overhround, not least because of the wide gangways between carriages. But could a three-rail DC or pantograph version of the Bombardier S-stock be manufactured? To me this design would look much more becoming of a metro area train whether it's for LO or Merseyrail.

 

[Skimble19]

I think 378s are great for where they are now, I'm not too convinced that they'd be suitable for longer journeys with their current interiors though.

Can't do any harm to post these suggestions on the next FCC 'meet the directors' forum.

Might be worth changing your name to Peter Skuce though.

Didn't realise you wanted a depot visit as well?

 

[jon0844]

The type of train purchased wouldn't matter as much as the pattern of the seat coverings either...!

 

[D365]

^ As long as the train works. I'll get in touch with Merseyrail and First Capital Connect soon, but is there any other organisation that I could/should get in contact with (i.e. DfT, Eversholt Rail as the owner of Class 313s)