Persistent railway myths, misunderstandings etc.

[squizzler]

Before privatisation occurred, British Rail was venerated by all as a public service and enjoyed the same emotional attachment in the minds of the British public as the NHS does today

 

[Alfonso]

I've heard about this. Where is this lift shaft please?

"Flooded" side passages lead to DUMPY and Gringotts

 

[RichT54]

The most efficient way for passengers to get on board a train is to surge towards the doors as soon as it arrives and not leave any room for passengers trying to get off.

 

[Journeyman]

In the spirit of the OP's Grand Central comment, I'd suggest the Thatcher quote that "A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure" << there's no evidence that she said this but it gets trotted out pretty often as proof that she hated public transport - and the more it gets quoted, the more people repeat it as truth (it may fit with our opinion of what she might have thought but she treated the railway reasonably well - one of the few bits of the State that she left alone in comparison to other industries - not that I'm defending everything she did).

Oddly enough, I was talking to someone about this quote yesterday (after she was complaining about unsavoury types on her bus). While it's almost certainly apocryphal and there's no proof she said it, I think it's persistent and accepted as truth because it does sound like the sort of thing she'd say, and because so many people hate her.

As time goes on, my feelings are decidedly mixed. She did some terrible things, but she was a beacon of competence compared to the current shower in charge.

 

[BeHereNow]

That in getting contractors to bid and fulfil an ITT, the DfT is then liable for TOCs failure to deliver.

 

[Clip]

That depends if you just read the headline of a Vivarail press release, a quick internet search without taking a real interest in an article itself certainly suggests they are claiming it's a new train.

Without wanting to seem like a pedantic arse but they are new trains for the Marston Vale line - theyve never been there before have they?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Concerning the bolded gentleman: very many ordinary folk with no big railway / transport interest, appear to take it for granted that -- and talk as though -- he were responsible for absolutely all passenger railway closures in Great Britain, pretty well "from 1855 to 2015". i have a theory -- mentioned before on these Forums -- that the name has so lodged in the nation's collective mind, because he sounds so extremely right for his role. "Doctor" -- a would-be healer, whether genius or deranged charlatan / butcher; and "Beeching" -- can be read as a coined word meaning "removing dead wood": whether that was being validly done, or whether it was a tragic mistake.

You make a very good point. One caveat however: many people who are interested in railways also blame Dr. Beeching for every closure. This forum frequently provides example of that!

 

[B&I]

Stoke-on-Trent?

I was in Stow-o-o-oake the other day. One of the many British cities so denuded of economic life that you could remake 'The Omega Man' in its centre at 9 am on a weekday

 

[B&I]

Reims. Saw it last year. Walked on the third rail, survived.

I assume the third rail was recessed into the roadway. Hell of a tripping hazrd otherwise

 

[shredder1]

Concerning the Great Central, my understanding is the London Extension was built to help provide through running to the continent through a Channel Tunnel. Is this true and could it be the reason for the built to a Continental Gauge myth if it is?

Yes that was the original vision, but it failed to materialise of course and the Great Central came out of the Manchester Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway, and also took over part of the Metropolitan Railway for the London Extension, both of which were definitly built to standard UK loading gauges

 

[shredder1]

All trains have to stop at Stockport, based on an ancient law, strangely no one has been able to find this law and the 05.11 Cross Country service from Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth certainly isnt aware of this

 

[TheEdge]

If you are complaining passenger quoting a headcode will make all rail staff cower at your majesty and knowledge of the internal machinations of the rail network.

 

[142Pilot]

Getting rid of a TOC will make the trains newer, staff more motivated and sunshine and unicorn farts eminate from the toilets.

TfW is for Wales only, and the English should curtsey everytime they are fortunate enough to share the same space as our cave dwelling chums.

Transpennie Express is a top TOC compared to its Northern runt cousin.

Traksy/realtime trains subsitutes actual real life experience.

 

[tommy2215]

A popular one among the public is that the private companies decide and are responsible for everything that is to do with the railways.

 

[Mag_seven]

Virgin still run Cross-Country.

 

[edwin_m]

BCR is the same thing as financial return.

 

[twpsaesneg]

That TOCs, FOCs and any part of the railway supply chain are somehow fleecing people by claiming extra costs for things not covered in the original contracts or assumptions accepted by the client (NR / DfT) when writing them.

That private sector contractors weren't used by British Rail to carry out major CAPEX projects, and that those contractors didn't do exactly the same then!

 

[Journeyman]

Virgin still run Cross-Country.

That one seems incredibly persistent, and will probably last as long as the Voyagers!

 

[xotGD]

That one seems incredibly persistent, and will probably last as long as the Voyagers!

You mean the 'Virgin Voyagers'!

 

[sw1ller]

How about this one just witnessed, that the doors will open just for you if you press the button enough times, despite said button being unlit; what do you think the rest of us on the cold platform at quarter to six are waiting for, frostbite?

How about the opposite to this that happened to me a week ago.

People one the train expecting the doors to open automatically, then when I get 2 to go, there’s banging on my door as the doors were “broken”. Give the guard 3-3-1 as it’s the last train and the doors are still “broken”. Opens cab door to find said passenger trying to disembark to the 6 ft and not the platform!!

Happens more often than I’d have expected!

 

[Andyh82]

If there is overcrowding it’s the TOCs fault for not buying more carriages

 

[squizzler]

How about the myth that persists amongst rail enthusiasts that the rail industry is uniquely incompetent to have suffered delays on the introduction of new rolling stock or cost over-runs in upgrading the infrastructure.

By comparison, the motor business' technical mastery and "can-do" attitude means that we will, in a year or two, be used to being driven around by driverless electric cars. Airlines are so much better managed than TOC's that it is practically unheard of for one to ever have gone bust. And highway construction works are so successful that traffic jams in the area magically disappear overnight, the local environment is greatly improved, and the bypassed high street fills to bursting with a vibrant economy of independent local shops. Highway works are done well within time and budget, not that they needed to be of course because the BCR is an order of magnitude higher than any rail project and it would still have been good value at several times the cost.

 

[B&I]

How about the myth that persists amongst rail enthusiasts that the rail industry is uniquely incompetent to have suffered delays on the introduction of new rolling stock or cost over-runs in upgrading the infrastructure.

By comparison, the motor business' technical mastery and "can-do" attitude means that we will, in a year or two, be used to being driven around by driverless electric cars. Airlines are so much better managed than TOC's that it is practically unheard of for one to ever have gone bust. And highway construction works are so successful that traffic jams in the area magically disappear overnight, the local environment is greatly improved, and the bypassed high street fills to bursting with a vibrant economy of independent local shops. Highway works are done well within time and budget, not that they needed to be of course because the BCR is an order of magnitude higher than any rail project and it would still have been good value at several times the cost.

Yes, if we widen this topic out to 'myths among "rail enthusiasts" ', it could run and run.

 

[tbtc]

Oddly enough, I was talking to someone about this quote yesterday (after she was complaining about unsavoury types on her bus). While it's almost certainly apocryphal and there's no proof she said it, I think it's persistent and accepted as truth because it does sound like the sort of thing she'd say, and because so many people hate her.

As time goes on, my feelings are decidedly mixed. She did some terrible things, but she was a beacon of competence compared to the current shower in charge.

Good points.

I'm the kind of left-of-centre person who's coming round to the idea of an effective right-of-centre leader (e.g. Merkell) rather than a well-meaning-but-useless left leaning leader (e.g. and Ed Milliband). I hate the current crop of MPs for making Thatcher look less-bad. Weird times.

Anyhow, ignoring some of the things posted by others (the kind of straw-man "myths" that no significant number of people actually believe in), I'd take this opportunity to repeat the "Pacers can't use Third Rail lines" comment from the start of one of the previous "myth" threads - since I've seen it mentioned on here from time to time (so sufficient people must believe it).

Also "the Borders railway significantly beat passenger forecasts" (which I've seen mentioned many times on here). Not really. It did well for the first six months (or so), then settled down to the expected passenger numbers. The proposals got the numbers right, they just expected it to take a year to get up to a certain number of passengers rather than a swifter change. In the long term the effect of this faster switch to using the railway (but getting the numbers correct after twelve months) is fairly insignificant, but it made for a lot of positive headlines in the early months.

The cynic in me wonders whether part of the initial good-looking passenger numbers were the boost of all the media focus/ the steam services/ the wrongly priced £1 tickets to various places in Scotland (e.g. a nominal price of a quid was put in the fares database so it was cheaper to buy a return from Tweedbank to East Kilbride than from Edinburgh to Glasgow, so people in the know would buy tickets starting from Tweedbank, hence the passenger numbers on the branch looking artificially better for a few months).

Maybe it was all genuine passengers and nobody took advantage of the £1 fares (!), but the end result is the same - passenger numbers now seem to be broadly in line with where they are expected to be - maybe the forecasts will be tweaked slightly to show that people nowadays are quicker to adapt to new stations/ services/ lines, but the battle was never going to be won or lost in the first six months - people should be careful using the Borders example as justification for why their pet project should go ahead.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Speaking of Borders rail, and this is more of an enthusiasts' myth:

Tweedbank to Carlisle reopening will happen and is needed. Once it does, trains will be packed.

 

[Ianno87]

Train timetablers can make any service work, regardless of complexity, if only they tried a bit harder.

 

[B&I]

Good points.

I'm the kind of left-of-centre person who's coming round to the idea of an effective right-of-centre leader (e.g. Merkell) rather than a well-meaning-but-useless left leaning leader (e.g. and Ed Milliband). I hate the current crop of MPs for making Thatcher look less-bad. Weird times.

Merkell is suvstantially to the left of her British conservative counterparts, and probably not that far to the right of even the current Labour leadership in substance (when you strip away the rhetoric). What I suspect you really want, if you're anything like me is a competent, pragmatic moderate, rather than the pocket-scale reproductions of Pinochet who seem to have been running Britain recently.

Mr Millibean, btw, would I think have made a better prime minister than he did an opposition leader, a sort of New Labour version of John Major, but it says a lot about this country, none of it good, that a. inability to eat a bacon sarnie elegantly is considered a more heinous offence than leavig a pub without all your children b. that this sort of media-driven twaddle is considered more important than someone's policies, and ability to implement them competently.

 

[Journeyman]

Also "the Borders railway significantly beat passenger forecasts" (which I've seen mentioned many times on here). Not really. It did well for the first six months (or so), then settled down to the expected passenger numbers. The proposals got the numbers right, they just expected it to take a year to get up to a certain number of passengers rather than a swifter change. In the long term the effect of this faster switch to using the railway (but getting the numbers correct after twelve months) is fairly insignificant, but it made for a lot of positive headlines in the early months.

The cynic in me wonders whether part of the initial good-looking passenger numbers were the boost of all the media focus/ the steam services/ the wrongly priced £1 tickets to various places in Scotland (e.g. a nominal price of a quid was put in the fares database so it was cheaper to buy a return from Tweedbank to East Kilbride than from Edinburgh to Glasgow, so people in the know would buy tickets starting from Tweedbank, hence the passenger numbers on the branch looking artificially better for a few months).

Maybe it was all genuine passengers and nobody took advantage of the £1 fares (!), but the end result is the same - passenger numbers now seem to be broadly in line with where they are expected to be - maybe the forecasts will be tweaked slightly to show that people nowadays are quicker to adapt to new stations/ services/ lines, but the battle was never going to be won or lost in the first six months - people should be careful using the Borders example as justification for why their pet project should go ahead.

Speaking of Borders rail, and this is more of an enthusiasts' myth:

Tweedbank to Carlisle reopening will happen and is needed. Once it does, trains will be packed.

Oddly enough, although overall usage figures for the Borders Railway are more or less accurate, the station usage predictions were a bit back-to-front. The inner-end stations in Midlothian have been much quieter than expected, with the outer ones (especially Galashiels) much busier.

Yeah, I'm really not buying the case for extension to Carlisle. Melrose and Hawick might be viable, but beyond that you're dealing with more or less completely empty countryside, and there's nothing that will generate traffic. It might occasionally be useful as a diversionary route, but for that you'd need double track and electrification throughout, and a ballpark figure for upgrading and extending it is at least a billion quid. It's still a gruesomely difficult line to work as well, with gradients and curves that strain even modern rolling stock, and the journey times will never be all that quick.

It's yet another line people get romantic and nostalgic about, and treat the closure as a great injustice, but the truth is the demand for it to return as a mixed-traffic mainline just isn't there. As an outer-suburban commuter route, it will do quite well, but that's it.

 

[yorksrob]

Mr Millibean, btw, would I think have made a better prime minister than he did an opposition leader, a sort of New Labour version of John Major, but it says a lot about this country, none of it good, that a. inability to eat a bacon sarnie elegantly is considered a more heinous offence than leavig a pub without all your children b. that this sort of media-driven twaddle is considered more important than someone's policies, and ability to implement them competently.

Yes, this is very true !

We've had some enthusiast myths. Now how about some industry ones.

Good, cost effective tickets and rovers etc are only used by a handful of enthusiasts, as opposed to 'normal' passengers.

One for the TOC's - simplification means restricting passengers options regarding what trains and routes they use, as opposed to widening them.

 

[Link24]

Train timetablers can make any service work, regardless of complexity, if only they tried a bit harder.

As someone that is soon to become a timetable planner, this scares me.