Persistent railway myths, misunderstandings etc.

[HowardGWR]

You can convince car drivers that they should count the costs, other than petrol, when comparing with the price of railway tickets.

 

[Bevan Price]

A belief that DfT is a super-efficient organisaion, is an expert on railways & their management - and is always right........

 

[507021]

A new franchise will be much better than the previous one from the very first day a new operator takes over.

 

[underbank]

That HS2 will improve things for those living in the North!

 

[DDB]

That if passengers detrain themselves due to being trapped in (to quote the RAIB) intolerable conditions, it was the passengers fault and not the fault of the rail industry for not having adequate arrangements to rescue them before it got to that point.

 

[al78]

You can convince car drivers that they should count the costs, other than petrol, when comparing with the price of railway tickets.

That isn't totally straightforward. I've heard arguments that things like depreciation, wear and tear, and insurance should be included when comparing the price of a car journey to a rail journey, but things like insurance, MOT and tax are one off annual payments when you own a car, they are not related to mileage (maybe very tenuously at most). If I am comparing the cost of driving and travelling by train for a single journey, surely it should be the costs acquired purely as a result of the journey that should be compared. The regular anual costs are important only if the decision is to own a car and use it for most journeys, or live car free and use public transport for journeys not practical for walking/cycling.

One thing that is curious is that when it comes to claiming back costs of driving, the pence per mile allowance always seems to be a lot higher that what some car drivers will argue the cost of doing a journey by car is compared to the public transport equivalent.

 

[TrainTube]

People thinking that if a line doesn't have overhead electrification it must mean that line isn't electrified. Also that London Undergound trains are all driven by people (Central, Jubilee, Northern, Victoria and possibly Waterloo & City are of course mainly driverless, the person in the cab is only responsible for door locking).

 

[LowLevel]

That the TRTS plunger is directly connected to the signal head (for the uninitiated platform staff in my area).

Leading on to that for some colleagues I've worked with - that hammering the TRTS button like it's a PlayStation controller 15 times in a second will help any associated relays pick and send far more messages to the signalbox assuring them of the urgency of your request to start the train.

(Because pushing and holding the button for a few seconds as designed will definitely not cause it to work effectively and send the one and only one intended notification to the signalbox)

That the driver who has just brought a unit in knows, the moment they leave the cab, every platform allocation, destination, delay for every train in a station

I think the best I ever had was at 0800 one Sunday morning recently when I walked into the concourse to go and book on and take a local train in the opposite direction to be greeted with 'hello, I can see you've probably not started yet but why does this screen say a train to Station X when my phone assures me it's a bus to Station X and the screen over there says a bus from stand Y'?

5 minutes of assuring him that I indeed hadn't started yet and had no idea what he was on about, plus the clearly labelled 'Local Buses' board was nothing to do with the train service so perhaps trusting the train departures instead would be wise did nothing to placate him and I had to walk away in the end to avoid delaying my own train.

 

[tbtc]

It’s true, FNW had hoped to take over the Holyhead route as well.

The original NWT/FNW order was something like 11 x 2-car 100mph, 7 x 3-car 100mph, 9 x 3-car 125mph. Sister company GWT/FGW then ordered an initial 8 x 5-car sets, and presumably at this time there was a swap around of the order with Alstom to effectively swap the 3-car 125mph sets to FGW and add 13 vehicles/re-configure to 8 x 5-car (and ultimately upped to 14 x 5-car 125mph), with 9 x 3-car 100mph added into the FNW order, so giving us the Class 175 and 180 fleets we have now.

Interesting - thanks both.

When they came into service I only read magazines occasionally so assumed that the 180s being introduced to FGW were doing the job they were built to do (providing capacity for the new hourly Paddington - Cardiff service, shorter than the HSTs on the hourly Swansea service but this was still the era of all new trains being shorter than the comparable ones) - only years later did I find out that they were initially intended for NWT... but that didn't seem to make sense as a handful fo Rochdale/ Manchester Airport - London services didn't warrant that many trains (and the Manchester Airport line was electrified) - cheers for explaining.

 

[Essexman]

That isn't totally straightforward. I've heard arguments that things like depreciation, wear and tear, and insurance should be included when comparing the price of a car journey to a rail journey, but things like insurance, MOT and tax are one off annual payments when you own a car, they are not related to mileage (maybe very tenuously at most). If I am comparing the cost of driving and travelling by train for a single journey, surely it should be the costs acquired purely as a result of the journey that should be compared. The regular anual costs are important only if the decision is to own a car and use it for most journeys, or live car free and use public transport for journeys not practical for walking/cycling.

One thing that is curious is that when it comes to claiming back costs of driving, the pence per mile allowance always seems to be a lot higher that what some car drivers will argue the cost of doing a journey by car is compared to the public transport equivalent.

What should be counted is a proportion of wear and tear and depreciation as some is mileage related, plus costs of parts such as tyres which are also mileage related. True cost is a lot more than just petrol but unless you have a new car that is rapidly depreciating the standard 45p/mile allowance seems quite generous.

 

[AndrewE]

What should be counted is a proportion of wear and tear and depreciation as some is mileage related, plus costs of parts such as tyres which are also mileage related. True cost is a lot more than just petrol but unless you have a new car that is rapidly depreciating the standard 45p/mile allowance seems quite generous.

There are 2 different questions depending on the need for the information:
1) (in the context of shall I replace it, or use trains, buses and taxis instead) how much does it cost to use my car/what is the overall annual cost? which should take all costs into account, including depreciation/"sinking fund," tax, insurance, tyres and servicing etc (which is where the 45p per mile comes from) or
2) how much will it cost to do a specific journey, given that my car is sitting waiting to be used? Which will be petrol, a bit for tyre wear plus parking charges etc.

 

[matacaster]

Statistics actually bear that out, on lines that have a perfectly normal service there is lower demand during bank holidays.

Another commonly held myth is that trees always help stabilise an embankment, when with manmade embankments like usually seen on railways the opposite is almost always the case.

I am sure the stats DO bear this out as you say - however, many people may well be completely put off travelling longer distance as large parts of the network are shut or severely affected by engineering works, so they simply give up and don't travel. Whilst it is clearly true that their are less commuters at such times (and on a Sunday), the concentration of engineering works on Sunday also leads to reduced passenger numbers which is self-perpetuating. Also, how can they be sure there is no demand on days when the whole railway system is shut completely?

If one just looked at the statistics for Northern on Saturday strike days, then one would conclude that fewer people travel on Saturdays and there was no need to offer a service after 19.00. Happily, looking at non-strike Saturday statistics it is perfectly clear there is demand. However, if you don't have statistics because you don't offer a service now, then its down to random surveys and they are far from accurate look at the projected demand and actual demand for the partially reopened Waverley route.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Dont know if this has been covered yet...

That all staff know the entire railway timetable off the top of their heads, not just train times but platforms as well...

 

[Railwaysceptic]

A belief that DfT is a super-efficient organisaion, is an expert on railways & their management - and is always right........

Oh, come on! No-one believes that except the senior Civil Servants who work there!

 

[al78]

What should be counted is a proportion of wear and tear and depreciation as some is mileage related, plus costs of parts such as tyres which are also mileage related. True cost is a lot more than just petrol but unless you have a new car that is rapidly depreciating the standard 45p/mile allowance seems quite generous.

You are probably right, but servicing costs tend to be classed as part of the annual costs of owning a car. For example, I will be getting my car serviced within the next month regardless of what journeys I have made over the year, and parts don't need replacing that often. Depreciation depends on whether you buy new or second hand. If I am looking at the financial comparison of doing the 480 mile round trip to visit family over Christmas, I tend to compare the fuel with the cost of a train ticket. The train is cheaper if I can get an advance ticket, if I have to buy a walk-up ticket the car is a lot cheaper. For a family making the same trip, the train can never compete with the car on a single long journey cost. If I am going on a hiking holiday in Scotland, the train is cheaper with advance tickets, but the overnight sleeper is a lot more expensive even including the cost of a B&B, but the sleeper allows more flexibility.

 

[co-tr-paul]

That one type of train can couple up to another.

 

[Ianno87]

Dont know if this has been covered yet...

That all staff know the entire railway timetable off the top of their heads, not just train times but platforms as well...

I'd go one further:

That it is completely ridiculous that every member of railway staff doesn't know every minute detail of the railway and its operation, even if it is completely irrelevant to their actual job.

Also:
Having a go at the driver or the person on Twitter for your train being late because it is apparently personally their fault.

 

[HowardGWR]

You are probably right, but servicing costs tend to be classed as part of the annual costs of owning a car. For example, I will be getting my car serviced within the next month regardless of what journeys I have made over the year, and parts don't need replacing that often. Depreciation depends on whether you buy new or second hand. If I am looking at the financial comparison of doing the 480 mile round trip to visit family over Christmas, I tend to compare the fuel with the cost of a train ticket. The train is cheaper if I can get an advance ticket, if I have to buy a walk-up ticket the car is a lot cheaper. For a family making the same trip, the train can never compete with the car on a single long journey cost. If I am going on a hiking holiday in Scotland, the train is cheaper with advance tickets, but the overnight sleeper is a lot more expensive even including the cost of a B&B, but the sleeper allows more flexibility.

You've both demonstrated the point I was making! Yes,all these arguments are valid. I was just making the point that this is what happens.

 

[sprunt]

That it is completely ridiculous that every member of railway staff doesn't know every minute detail of the railway and its operation, even if it is completely irrelevant to their actual job.

Is this really a "persistent myth"? Where is it perpetuated?

 

[alxndr]

Is this really a "persistent myth"? Where is it perpetuated?

I can only talk from my own experience, but my family–and sometimes the passing public–have a tenancy to ask when the trains will stop being delayed/be generally better/cheaper or why electrification hasn't gone smoothly. I can fix a signal or set of points, but beyond that anything I know has solely come from lurking about on here

 

[Llanigraham]

Is this really a "persistent myth"? Where is it perpetuated?

Because it happens!
I've had "stupid" questions asked of me because I had my Network Rail fleece on going to a briefing. How am I supposed to know what time a train will arrive at Crewe, for example?

 

[Spartacus]

I can only talk from my own experience, but my family–and sometimes the passing public–have a tenancy to ask when the trains will stop being delayed/be generally better/cheaper or why electrification hasn't gone smoothly. I can fix a signal or set of points, but beyond that anything I know has solely come from lurking about on here

Yes, I get similar things, "I'm changing trains at Bristol, which platform will it be on?", when I work in York!

 

[Ken H]

deleted

 

[Iskra]

People only want to travel to London.

 

[Journeyman]

That HS2 phase 1 just goes from London to Birmingham.

I worked for Edinburgh Trams during the construction phase, and we exhibited a completed tram in Princes Street in 2010. About 90% of the people who came to see it were absolutely convinced that the route was going to terminate well short of the airport, and that you'd have to get a bus to complete your journey. No idea where that one came from.

 

[Journeyman]

People only want to travel to London.

To be fair, 80% of UK rail journeys begin and/or end in London.

 

[AndrewE]

To be fair, 80% of UK rail journeys begin and/or end in London.

I'm sorry (and a bit surprised, and disappointed) to hear that. If it's true it probably reflects the fact that a) London has been allowed or encouraged to grow at the expense of the rest of the country and b) its commuter network has been developed while the rest of the country's has been held in a strangle-hold.

 

[Journeyman]

I'm sorry (and a bit surprised, and disappointed) to hear that. If it's true it probably reflects the fact that a) London has been allowed or encouraged to grow at the expense of the rest of the country and b) its commuter network has been developed while the rest of the country's has been held in a strangle-hold.

I think it's just a reflection of the south-east's population density, and the very high proportion of commuters who travel by rail in the area.

 

[dewsnapsliding]

That it made sense to close the Woodhead line

 

[Journeyman]

That it made sense to close the Woodhead line

It did make sense.