Petition asking for SouthEastern to be stripped of franchise

[ScotGG]

Despite not agreeing with the petition there are real issues but this doesn't seem to realise who is to blame for that, and its sometime NR and often the Department for Transport.

1) Overcrowding which is exacerbated by building work and population growth. No new trains for metro routes for 10+ years and none confirmed in future - just vague plans years from now. Compare to the net gains now for Southern, Thameslink, SWT etc. So SE's lack of more to additional stock for increasing demand is in contrast to most other TOCs.

But the DfT are to blame not SE.

2) An increase in cancellations due to staff shortages. SE's fault you could say but the DfT's failings meaning a couple of short term extension of 18 months a time means no TOC is going to hire staff for the future unless told to. So its stagnated again due to DfT failings.

3) The networkers BADLY need a clean inside. A proper refurb after 25 years. DfT again didn't demand this.

4) One big failing of SE is not advertising sufficiently. Competency is a failing I would give them. They could do so much more to promote certain routes (eg the extension of Vic to Dartford 7 days a week could've seen so much more to alert people) and destinations (eg new posters advertising the new Rochester station).

Sadly the DfT won't do enough, so the petitioners should also give an idea of what they want, and that must be TfL. They would promote routes like Vic to Dartford, actually make an effort to protest revenue and keep the trains looking half decent. It may not be SE fault that so many trains are filthy, but having pretty much a free railway due to a lack of station staff and no on-board staff mean it attracts so many dodgy people, which puts off others using it.
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Since then how many franchises has there been ? The disgruntlement hasn't changed but the franchise has. Govia are the current franchise holders and whoever takes over in 2018 (if they make it) will have the same disgruntled commuters with the same complaints calling for heads to roll.

To be fair DOR did see an upswing in goodwill. They actually seemed to care and it was noticeable. SE then took over and it went downhill, but is better again since 2014. However its all within DfT constraints, and that's the real problem. SE doesn't seem a political problem so they overlook. If all the people signing wrote to their MP it would be a political problem.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Is there a similar petition asking for Southern to be stripped of their franchise?

I had a call from a local journalist this morning saying there was and asking for my view as someone who has been commuting for years. My response was much as those here:-

-who is going to replace them and why would it be any better?
- might be crew shortages but where are additional crews coming from and wouldn't you need higher fares to pay for them?
- profits might be millions but as a percentage of turnover they are pretty low, but in any event you don't know what costs have transferred before profits calculated
-the Southern network is operating pretty much at 100% capacity so it doesn't take much for it to go wrong
- the Uckfield line is significantly better than it was before Southern took it on
- I have been lucky and avoided the worst chaotic days and whilst last Monday was annoying (booted off at Oxted) it's the first significant delay in ages for me
- trains might often be a few minutes late (most days 2 minutes late in to London and 5 late home) but I know that and accept it

I did say my main irritation was with service recovery and their inability to recover from events and customer information which has deteriorated and appears to be aimed at the leisure traveller who knows nothing, whilst commuters would want greater information as they can tell from the amount of disruption what their best option is going to be.

I am also fed up with MPs jumping on the bash the train companies bandwagon. It's simple governments of all persuasions have not invested sufficiently in the rail network since the 60s if not before and that is why we have the situation we have now. It's no good criticising we need to work together so passengers understand why it can all go wrong, but equally so train companies can explain why services and late cancelled so passengers know what to do

 

[HH]

To be fair DOR did see an upswing in goodwill. They actually seemed to care and it was noticeable. SE then took over and it went downhill, but is better again since 2014. However its all within DfT constraints, and that's the real problem. SE doesn't seem a political problem so they overlook. If all the people signing wrote to their MP it would be a political problem.

DoR were basically given a license to spend. Connex were truly bad operators, so put the two together...

The current mob aren't perfect by any means, but DfT are getting what they paid for. If they weren't so incompetent then we would have a new franchisee pumping in investment by now.

 

[ScotGG]

Southern get some criticism on here of pushing a timetable they were warned from others wouldn't work. That does seem to be of their own making. SE have a timetable enforced on them.

On the bright side for Southern they are seeing net increases in stock. You mention the Uckfield line which is a good example. Lots of platform extensions and some actual additional stock to make use of it. NR spent millions from 2010 making the SE metro network capable of 12-car running. The DfT never thought to actually plan for SE to get more stock though, and so none arrived. So there's a grand total of one train that is 12 car across the evening peak.

HH - what I most liked about DOR was something that cost almost nothing. Telling people what was happening when things went wrong or plans were underway (eg stock going away for work).

In terms of extra staff and funding, SE metro has very high levels of fare evasion due to so few staff. TfL have calculated that employing extra staff plus some short term capital investment in altering stations so existing staff can watch over gatelines (eg. most stations with barriers have gates nearby that are open rendering gates pointless) would help with the costs. The additional safety benefit of keeping away some of the undesirables so widespread on SE metro routes would also encourage others to travel who now would rather avoid.

 

[Antman]

Well said. I've recently finished commuting to London and can only marvel that Southeastern manage to do what they do. I commuted from 1994 and to see Cannon St dispatching a train every 2 mins in the evening peak was something to behold.

A train every 2 minutes out of Cannon Street isn't that difficult is it? BR used to manage something similar just as LU do now at various locations.

 

[najaB]

A train every 2 minutes out of Cannon Street isn't that difficult is it?

It's not rocket surgery but it's pretty hard.

BR used to manage something similar just as LU do now at various locations.

LU has a *lot* more control over their network than a single TOC does over NR metals.

 

[swt_passenger]

A train every 2 minutes out of Cannon Street isn't that difficult is it? BR used to manage something similar just as LU do now at various locations.

Before, during, or after the London Bridge rebuild works though? They haven't got the full track layout available east of London Bridge at the moment.

 

[Antman]

Before, during, or after the London Bridge rebuild works though? They haven't got the full track layout available east of London Bridge at the moment.

What is unavailable?

 

[Mojo]

Perhaps TOCs should include being a scapegoat in their aims and objectives

Isn't that the whole point of the current structure of the railway industry? Certainly I can see no other logical reason for the setup we have other than for allowing politicians to absolve themselves of all blame.

 

[TheEdge]

I am also fed up with MPs jumping on the bash the train companies bandwagon. It's simple governments of all persuasions have not invested sufficiently in the rail network since the 60s if not before and that is why we have the situation we have now. It's no good criticising we need to work together so passengers understand why it can all go wrong, but equally so train companies can explain why services and late cancelled so passengers know what to do

This. This a million times. Ben Gummer, the Ipswich MP has decided the best thing he can do is freely give a soundbite about choas/Greater Anglia/Great Eastern Task Force/disruption (delete as appropriate) to whichever BBC or Archant journalist turns up at his constituency office. Presenting some sort of answer or solution, other than sitting on a committee however, seems to be utterly beyond him. Chloe Smith of Norwich used to do the same though she seems to have got bored of it now.

 

[urpert]

Sadly the DfT won't do enough, so the petitioners should also give an idea of what they want, and that must be TfL. They would promote routes like Vic to Dartford, actually make an effort to protest revenue and keep the trains looking half decent. It may not be SE fault that so many trains are filthy, but having pretty much a free railway due to a lack of station staff and no on-board staff mean it attracts so many dodgy people, which puts off others using it.

It's particularly odd that Southeastern stations haven't seen the same spate of ticket gate installation as Southern ones. For all the conflicting views about gating stations, it certainly seems to have had a positive effect on the state of Southern/LOROL stations in quite rough areas.

 

[Antman]

It's particularly odd that Southeastern stations haven't seen the same spate of ticket gate installation as Southern ones. For all the conflicting views about gating stations, it certainly seems to have had a positive effect on the state of Southern/LOROL stations in quite rough areas.

I've passed through Denmark Hill at various times of day and the barriers are always open as indeed they are at many South Eastern stations.

 

[swt_passenger]

What is unavailable?

There are only two tracks available for Cannon St services east of London Bridge out as far as New Cross, because one of the tracks has effectively been pinched for three years for the down line from Charing Cross.

So although the 3 platforms can still be used differently in the am and pm peaks, there is no longer a third through line to the east that can be used reversibly.

 

[Antman]

There are only two tracks available for Cannon St services east of London Bridge out as far as New Cross, because one of the tracks has effectively been pinched for three years for the down line from Charing Cross.

So although the 3 platforms can still be used differently in the am and pm peaks, there is no longer a third through line to the east that can be used reversibly.

Yes I was forgetting about that but two tracks should still suffice now that there are no trains from Charing Cross to Greenwich and New Crosss.

 

[ScotGG]

It's particularly odd that Southeastern stations haven't seen the same spate of ticket gate installation as Southern ones. For all the conflicting views about gating stations, it certainly seems to have had a positive effect on the state of Southern/LOROL stations in quite rough areas.

Havn't many Southern station in London had changes as a result of TfL input? Leave it to the DfT and not much happens, or some boxes are ticked and one area barriered but big gates left open nearby rendering it a waste of time, as on Southeastern.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes I was forgetting about that but two tracks should still suffice now that there are no trains from Charing Cross to Greenwich and New Crosss.

Unless something invariably goes wrong. Changing ends on P2 is a benefit to everyone. P2 is reversible and used in both peaks to reduce the congestion.

 

[Antman]

Havn't many Southern station in London had changes as a result of TfL input? Leave it to the DfT and not much happens, or some boxes are ticked and one area barriered but big gates left open nearby rendering it a waste of time, as on Southeastern.

That happens other places too, New Malden in SWT area where one entrance has barriers (which are often open anyway) whilst the other entrance is wide open, what's the point?

 

[ScotGG]

Exactly. It's something simple that TfL generally sorts out within 12 months of taking over lines - particularly at busy stations. Does that line have on-board staff?

 

[backontrack]

People down here in the South East complain too much. I wonder how long these people would survive commuting on a Pacer from Bradford to Leeds.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

People down here in the South East complain too much. I wonder how long these people would survive commuting on a Pacer from Bradford to Leeds.

They'd have to get past the Doncaster Defence Zone manned by me and a bunch of loyal and trusty pacers

 

[ScotGG]

I see the network has a lot of problems again tonight. SE are generally at the bottom of daily PPM tables. It seems someone is ill. Obviously we don't know the reason but one criticism SE can be levied is whacking up the heat so high it's very uncomfortable. No need at all with everyone in winter clothing. It's stifling with crowding levels on SE routes, made even worse with London Bridge works without longer trains to mitigate. This issue with temps also seems a common complaint about some TOCs.

It's a relief to switch to other TOCs with trains which have temps that can easily be changed on board. Could it be done on networkers? As said before, they are 25 years old now and should've had work done on things like that if possible. Interior refurbs are one more thing the DfT never bothered specifying with franchise awards or extensions.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I see the network has a lot of problems again tonight. SE are generally at the bottom of daily PPM tables. It seems someone is ill. Obviously we don't know the reason but one criticism SE can be levied is whacking up the heat so high it's very uncomfortable. No need at all with everyone in winter clothing. It's stifling with crowding levels on SE routes, made even worse with London Bridge works without longer trains to mitigate. This issue with temps also seems a common complaint about some TOCs.

It's a relief to switch to other TOCs with trains which have temps that can easily be changed on board. Could it be done on networkers? As said before, they are 25 years old now and should've had work done on things like that if possible. Interior refurbs are one more thing the DfT never bothered specifying with franchise awards or extensions.

I was on Southeastern train the other day and found the heat level to be quite comfortable

 

[ScotGG]

People down here in the South East complain too much. I wonder how long these people would survive commuting on a Pacer from Bradford to Leeds.

You know it's not either/or? If one area is severely in need of improvements it doesn't mean another isn't. I've lived in an area commuting by Pacers and in London and both were pretty crap. Many SE routes only have 2 trains an hour anyway so one cancellation and a wait for a train that's wedged and being unable to board is not uncommon. SE routes are not the tube with trains every 3 minutes. Nor as good as many other areas of London.

Clearly SE routes serve far more people than Pacer routes so this affects many more. And those in the SE are increasingly forced to live so far away from centres of employment due to a lack of housing and how unaffordable that housing is. That is nowhere near as bad in most areas served by Pacers.

Move then? Many are but not all can. Does that mean a very poor service should be given? It's not right in the SE area and not right in parts of the north either.
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I was on Southeastern train the other day and found the heat level to be quite comfortable

Well its one trip. A daily user would say otherwise. And was that a networker at peak times? Those are the worst. I know people have different levels of comfort but when it's 5 degrees and yet every window is open and people sweating profusely it's clearly a bit off.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

You know it's not either/or? If one area is severely in need of improvements it doesn't mean another isn't. I've lived in an area commuting by Pacers and in London and both were pretty crap. Many SE routes only have 2 trains an hour anyway so one cancellation and a wait for a train that's wedged and being unable to board is not uncommon. SE routes are not the tube with trains every 3 minutes. Nor as good as many other areas of London.

Clearly SE routes serve far more people than Pacer routes so this affects many more. And those in the SE are increasingly forced to live so far away from centres of employment due to a lack of housing and how unaffordable that housing is. That is nowhere near as bad in most areas served by Pacers.

Move then? Many are but not all can. Does that mean a very poor service should be given? It's not right in the SE area and not right in parts of the north either.
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Well its one trip. A daily user would say otherwise. And was that a networker at peak times? Those are the worst.

It was from Charing Cross to Waterloo East - the shortest trip I knew for certain was within the 1-6 zone. I was sat on it for some time before the train set off with the doors shut and can honestly say I enjoyed the level of heat provided.

 

[D1009]

This. This a million times. Ben Gummer, the Ipswich MP has decided the best thing he can do is freely give a soundbite about choas/Greater Anglia/Great Eastern Task Force/disruption (delete as appropriate) to whichever BBC or Archant journalist turns up at his constituency office. Presenting some sort of answer or solution, other than sitting on a committee however, seems to be utterly beyond him. Chloe Smith of Norwich used to do the same though she seems to have got bored of it now.

But speaking up for the railway isn't a vote winner, is it?

 

[ScotGG]

The issue tonight with SE is a good reason some dislike them, though I'm not sure they're at fault. The train with the ill passenger was stuck at New Cross for about 40 minutes. The ambulance took a long time to arrive which is worrying itself. The train then left and terminated one stop after at Lewisham, so about 10 carriages worth of people on the platform. It looks really quite dangerous and could well cause more problems.

Imagine the situation with trains behind, which are packed to the rafters after waiting for 40 minutes, arriving to meet those people. It's a major junction station that has already seen emergency work carried out by NR and SE the past 6 months to create more space due to overcrowding caused by tower blocks built all around the station and London Bridge works causing capacity cuts.

Who made that call, as it doesn't look very sensible? People are unlikely to be able to board packed trains after. People on those trains arriving may not be able to exit given its wedged all along the platform.

 

[northwichcat]

People down here in the South East complain too much. I wonder how long these people would survive commuting on a Pacer from Bradford to Leeds.

I still remember the time I caught a 4 car SE train turned up on a service I was catching when it should have been 8 car. Everyone fitted on the 4 car train and there was probably a slightly lower number of passengers than seats. However, the amount of complaining about the train only being 4 cars was very surprising.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I notice the OP has disappeared. Did he/she really think that publicising it in a forum where people actually have an idea what goes on behind the scenes would be a good move?

 

[ComUtoR]

Do you really believe the OP had any real argument or would support the petition using logical and well thought out discussion.

Just another social media warrior.

 

[Dave1987]

This. This a million times. Ben Gummer, the Ipswich MP has decided the best thing he can do is freely give a soundbite about choas/Greater Anglia/Great Eastern Task Force/disruption (delete as appropriate) to whichever BBC or Archant journalist turns up at his constituency office. Presenting some sort of answer or solution, other than sitting on a committee however, seems to be utterly beyond him. Chloe Smith of Norwich used to do the same though she seems to have got bored of it now.

Absolutely spot on! Just like Will Quince announcing a special hearing of the transport select committee. To do what exactly? Discuss all the issues that GEML has? What exactly is that going to achieve? MP's love to jump on the bandwagon to be seen to be doing something. What do these petitions achieve? Nothing. What makes me laugh here though is that the trolls of the AGA twitter feed claim that the SouthEastern service is fantastic. Clearly every commuter in each part of the country believes that their service is the worst in the country when really they are all just as good/bad as each other.