Petition asking for SouthEastern to be stripped of franchise

[ComUtoR]

Gotta love online petitions. I just checked the signature distribution. Its also gone up since posted here

 

[Dave1987]

Gotta love online petitions. I just checked the signature distribution. Its also gone up since posted here

2500 signatures. Only another 7500 signatures required until the DFT has to respond. Somehow I doubt they will be.......

 

[gtr driver]

I still remember the time I caught a 4 car SE train turned up on a service I was catching when it should have been 8 car. Everyone fitted on the 4 car train and there was probably a slightly lower number of passengers than seats. However, the amount of complaining about the train only being 4 cars was very surprising.

Trains are not necessarily formed for a particular journey. Operationally it may be easier to run a longer formation around off peak even though it is not needed until peak time. If the train has to attach then the other unit is occupying valuable platform space until that occurs, or a path is taken up by the other unit running empty from somewhere to reach the attachment point. However if a service is announced as 8 then turns up as 4 even if 8 are not needed this is still inconvenient. Passengers are then often waiting four coaches away and this can build up to a consequential delay over a journey of a dozen stops as the dwell time rises. Rest assured despite your experience there are many occasions when a short formed train will be leaving people behind in the South.

 

[TheEdge]

I see the network has a lot of problems again tonight. SE are generally at the bottom of daily PPM tables. It seems someone is ill. Obviously we don't know the reason but one criticism SE can be levied is whacking up the heat so high it's very uncomfortable. No need at all with everyone in winter clothing. It's stifling with crowding levels on SE routes, made even worse with London Bridge works without longer trains to mitigate. This issue with temps also seems a common complaint about some TOCs.

It's a relief to switch to other TOCs with trains which have temps that can easily be changed on board. Could it be done on networkers? As said before, they are 25 years old now and should've had work done on things like that if possible. Interior refurbs are one more thing the DfT never bothered specifying with franchise awards or extensions.

This is one of those posts that really gets to me. Lets start from the top, (my understanding) across 6 classes (Mk2s, Mk3s, 153, 156, 158, 170) of passenger stock I work on is that heating is generally either ON or OFF. There is no meaningful way to adjust the heat beyond that (bar 170s which do have a "summer" and "winter" setting) on a lot of stock. This seems to be generally very common, can't just adjust it through the day.

Secondly your logic that because its winter the heating should not be on because people have coats. Thats just silly. I, and probably everyone else, am not going to start turning off heating because people have winter coats. Temperature is a common complaint because you can never please everyone. Someone will always be cold on the same train where others are too hot, many times I've received both complaints on the same train!

As to refurbishing heating systems I imagine it would be more significant that simply an interior refresh. To add a modern HVAC system to a unit not originally fitted would be probably quite a big job.

 

[ScotGG]

You're quoting stock that is generally 10-20 years older and most a generation of design before. And who said turning heating off? It's about the temp it's set at.

In terms of not being able to set it, well SE used to state they could only change networker temperatures at the depot and it should be set around 21c. They do have temp gauges and a thermostat. Now something has been done to working practices as drivers can change it, but they state only at certain points on a journey, which is a welcome change and something I congratulate them on doing.

Clearly people like different temps. But the general rule of thumb is a couple of degrees either side of 21c. Allowances should be made for how busy an environment is. A packed commuter train should be set slightly below.

As I said, if you have pretty much every window open when its almost freezing outside that's a sign it's wrong.

But really it's one of the more minor things wrong and they have taken positive steps, and their twitter is good when people let them know. A far bigger issue is a landslide last night at 11pm has closed an entire line from Dartford. It will be messy tomorrow morning. Many will moan when it's none of their fault.

The problem is SE's 8 and 10 car peak trains are barely enough now for existing loadings the peaks. When something goes wrong they really struggle. Of course all TOCs would but SE seem to have very little leeway. They need longer trains for normal daily passenger numbers as it is.

 

[bramling]

Standard procedure for recovering the service that all commuter type TOCs do. As the service is generally frequent there is usually another train behind calling at the missed stops. This is precisely what Southeastern did on Saturday at Ashford on the high speed route after an obstruction on the line and was the correct thing to do to minimise overall disruption.



When the job goes up the wall the last thing Control and signallers are concerned with is trying to ensure a train is only 29 minutes late rather than 30. That's one of the worst conspiracy theories and as already said simply doesn't happen.



This is the no win situation. Do nothing and you get the situation South West Trains found themselves in (through no fault of their own) last week. Over react and you are equally criticised. Southeastern is one of the most complex operations in the country, with Cannon St and Charing Cross workings extremely tight, so for the greater good thinning the service sometimes is necessary.

And all this is under normal operation. Having taken a trip out of Charing Cross on Saturday to see all the London Bridge work it is remarkable they can offer a service at all given the scale of the infrastructure changes. Take a ride to see it, I found it fascinating. Then the sea wall is damaged at Dover leading to more very short notice alterations. The bus service between Folkestone West and Dover was working fine and gave me a great view of Folkestone you don't get from the train, and a good view of Dover castle on the approach to Dover.

So credit to all Southeastern staff in difficult times. As for signing the petition, I guess you can work out for yourself where I'd put it.

I've noticed Southeastern do seem to make some strange decisions when it comes to missing stops. I recently was on a CHX to Ramsgate train which lost a bit of time leaving the London area, by Ashford it was about 8 late. It was then announced the train would miss Wye Sturry and Minster. The train wasn't booked a tight turnround, the crew evidently weren't in a rush to go on PNB or another train as they could be heard remarking "I don't understand the point of that", and in the end the train ended up behind another train off the Deal line so ended up getting signal checked. But with the skipped stations having an infrequent service I wouldn't have been happy if I'd been trying to travel to one of them. A fairly minor delay of 8 minutes on a 2-hour journey shouldn't be leading to stops being taken out.

 

[306024]

At face value that does seem strange. I did say generally frequent and usually another train. Where that isn't the case you need to consider the consequences more closely. I once worked with a very good controller who seemed to have the knack of knowing when to get the knife out, and when to let the delays run out naturally.

Presumably the petition will gain more signatures today after the land slip at Barnehurst.

 

[Antman]

At face value that does seem strange. I did say generally frequent and usually another train. Where that isn't the case you need to consider the consequences more closely. I once worked with a very good controller who seemed to have the knack of knowing when to get the knife out, and when to let the delays run out naturally.

Presumably the petition will gain more signatures today after the land slip at Barnehurst.

Whilst the landslip itself isn't their fault giving out misleading advice on twitter doesn't help!

They told somebody that there was a reduced service from Blackheath, not strictly incorrect but this was about 07.30 and the next London train wasn't until 08.51! Of course there is no peak hour service from Charlton due to capacity limitations.

 

[Chrisgr31]

On the bright side for Southern they are seeing net increases in stock. You mention the Uckfield line which is a good example. Lots of platform extensions and some actual additional stock to make use of it. NR spent millions from 2010 making the SE metro network capable of 12-car running.

These works though are a classic example of Southern and Network Rail snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The reality is that before Southern took on the franchise all those years ago the service was dire, changing on off-peak services at Oxted, no early morning, late evening, Sunday service etc.masses of spares seats. Southern introduced new rolling stock, through services, late evening early morning services then get loads of flack for crowded trains! Before them there was a worry the line would be closed!

Then of course during these works they are having to run buses from Crowborough to Uckfield as Uckfield Town Council wouldn't give them access to do the works ,but they are taking the opportunity to do works in Crowborough tunnel at the same time. They are not though making any real effort to tell commuters what they are doing. They also refuse to say when the longer trains will be in service nor explain why they haven't released them earlier to cover for breakdowns etc. it's just poor communication.

Incidentally in the greatest of ironies my train was cancelled last night.

 

[RPM]

It's not just Southeastern. Disgruntled Chiltern commuters have set up a Change.org petition, specifically bemoaning the timetable changes introduced with the opening of the Oxford Parkway service. After five days it has just exceeded the 100 signature mark, so safe to assume it isn't any real threat to the franchise!

 

[SPADTrap]

Online petitions are so typically British. Wild stab in the dark at change with zero effort spent, perfect for the 'just too busy' lifestyle! :razz:

 

[ComUtoR]

YNow something has been done to working practices as drivers can change it, but they state only at certain points on a journey, which is a welcome change and something I congratulate them on doing.

That is totally false. Not sure where you heard that but it's not true whatsoever.

 

[BestWestern]

Anybody up for a petition to take Southeastern commuters on a tour of the control centre and let them see what actually happens in the real world!?

 

[ComUtoR]

I think that has actually happened. Same with the London Bridge works. Haven't they been visited by focus groups ?

Either way its a good idea.

 

[Antman]

Anybody up for a petition to take Southeastern commuters on a tour of the control centre and let them see what actually happens in the real world!?

Perhaps the tour could include Lewisham so they can be shown how 'the wrong type of sunshine' is causing further delays with drivers unable to see the DOO monitors? Needless to say this has gone down a storm on twitter with many asking what type of weather conditions don't cause delays

 

[Class 466]

Perhaps the tour could include Lewisham so they can be shown how 'the wrong type of sunshine' is causing further delays with drivers unable to see the DOO monitors? Needless to say this has gone down a storm on twitter with many asking what type of weather conditions don't cause delays

I suppose you've never tried to look at your phone in direct sunlight?

 

[ComUtoR]

I suppose you've never tried to look at your phone in direct sunlight?

I thought my phone was broken but it transpires it has a feature where the screen will adjust when in direct sunlight.

Lewisham needs the shrouds on the monitors to be a lot bigger. Its not so much the "wrong kind of sunlight" but the "wrong time".

 

[theageofthetra]

Drivers following the rules at Lewisham and getting castigated by the ill-informed. Perhaps those complaining would like to see a bit of cctv or a coroners report of when DOO goes wrong? Now as to whether bat and flag can be introduced in an emergency or at peak times is another debate.

 

[ainsworth74]

Drivers following the rules at Lewisham and getting castigated by the ill-informed. Perhaps those complaining would like to see a bit of cctv or a coroners report of when DOO goes wrong?

Perhaps they would as then they would no longer be ill-informed? It's obviously silly from our perspective to be getting annoyed by 'the wrong type of sun' but most passengers won't really be aware of what using a DOO monitor in bright sunlight is like (why would they?) so a bit of education might well be useful.

 

[Antman]

Drivers following the rules at Lewisham and getting castigated by the ill-informed. Perhaps those complaining would like to see a bit of cctv or a coroners report of when DOO goes wrong? Now as to whether bat and flag can be introduced in an emergency or at peak times is another debate.

Lighten up a bit, yes I appreciate sunlight on a monitor could be a problem but were Southeastern really wise to put that on twitter? Passengers who are already miffed at the disruption caused by the landslide just think they are taking the proverbial. Imagine a bus company saying their buses were late because drivers were being dazzled by the sun

 

[gtr driver]

That is totally false. Not sure where you heard that but it's not true whatsoever.

Was gonna say, we've always been told, leave the heating alone. It is a fairly crude system as far as I understand it, and almost impossible to get right in a non sealed environment (doors opening even if the windows are sealed) just as it's impossible to please everyone in a building with air con or heating. Even in the cabs it can go from boiling to freezing with a small adjustment. Like so much, it involves leaving the cab and doing stuff in every coach and there's just no slippage time for such things..now if there was a guard...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps the tour could include Lewisham so they can be shown how 'the wrong type of sunshine' is causing further delays with drivers unable to see the DOO monitors? Needless to say this has gone down a storm on twitter with many asking what type of weather conditions don't cause delays

Most types of weather cause problems due to these things called the laws of physics, whatever people think of that. Ice and snow causes points to freeze and electrical contact problems. Drizzle causes slipping and sliding issues, as do falling leaves with damp rails. Sunlight bleaches out the signals and the DOO monitors, including the body side camera ones. Extreme heat causes problems with joint expansion and points. As far as I remember all of this causes issues for all other forms of transport too. Possibly some of things are fixable to a larger extent if we are willing to spend the money on them, but the experience of the last few decades suggests to me that we are not. It's not the TOC's fault if people won't grow up and understand that there are problems that are beyond their control.

 

[ScotGG]

Was gonna say, we've always been told, leave the heating alone. It is a fairly crude system as far as I understand it, and almost impossible to get right in a non sealed environment (doors opening even if the windows are sealed) just as it's impossible to please everyone in a building with air con or heating. Even in the cabs it can go from boiling to freezing with a small adjustment. Like so much, it involves leaving the cab and doing stuff in every coach and there's just no slippage time for such things..now if there was a guard...

Interesting. SE have publicly said on twitter numerous times it can be done by the driver. They'll usually reply with something like 'thanks for letting us know. The driver will change it when you get to x station'.

Nightmare today on the roads and other lines with Bexleyheath line's closure. Rail replacement buses from just Bexleyheath to Blackheath took 90 mins+. Another 90 mins to get to central London from there if staying on a bus and not making it to Lewisham to board (which was not easy of course).

Some complained of a lack of staff and info at stations. Given busy stations can have few staff normally that's maybe not surprising but again how much of that is SE's fault?

 

[gtr driver]

Interesting. SE have publicly said on twitter numerous times it can be done by the driver. They'll usually reply with something like 'thanks for letting us know. The driver will change it when you get to x station'.

Nightmare today on the roads and other lines with Bexleyheath line's closure. Rail replacement buses from just Bexleyheath to Blackheath took 90 mins+. Another 90 mins to get to central London from there if staying on a bus and not making it to Lewisham to board (which was not easy of course).

Some complained of a lack of staff and info at stations. Given busy stations can have few staff normally that's maybe not surprising but again how much of that is SE's fault?

Dare I say it's possible the Twitter staff don't know what the driver can or can't do? Judging by their responses to some of the complaints people make about trains missing stops when they were never meant to stop or speeding when they are not, I have my doubts.

If nothing else, these bus journey times demonstrate how crucial the railway is to SE London with its lack of alternatives, and being told we don't need the Bakerloo/Fleet/Crossrail/DLR extension due to the number of buses is really not helpful!

 

[ComUtoR]

Interesting. SE have publicly said on twitter numerous times it can be done by the driver. They'll usually reply with something like 'thanks for letting us know. The driver will change it when you get to x station'.

gtr driver drives different stock. It can't be done and neither has there been any internal communication as you suggested. There is one where we have been specifically reminded to switch it on or switch it off because its off for most of the summer and when the winter comes people forget to switch it back on. It's good practice in the winter months to automatically switch on the heating as it may have been switched off at some point.

I would say that the reason why they stay the Driver will change it at X location is because they cannot contact the Driver directly and are using station staff to communicate. However I will still state that we can't do it. It's on/off and nothing else.

 

[Antman]

Was gonna say, we've always been told, leave the heating alone. It is a fairly crude system as far as I understand it, and almost impossible to get right in a non sealed environment (doors opening even if the windows are sealed) just as it's impossible to please everyone in a building with air con or heating. Even in the cabs it can go from boiling to freezing with a small adjustment. Like so much, it involves leaving the cab and doing stuff in every coach and there's just no slippage time for such things..now if there was a guard...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Most types of weather cause problems due to these things called the laws of physics, whatever people think of that. Ice and snow causes points to freeze and electrical contact problems. Drizzle causes slipping and sliding issues, as do falling leaves with damp rails. Sunlight bleaches out the signals and the DOO monitors, including the body side camera ones. Extreme heat causes problems with joint expansion and points. As far as I remember all of this causes issues for all other forms of transport too. Possibly some of things are fixable to a larger extent if we are willing to spend the money on them, but the experience of the last few decades suggests to me that we are not. It's not the TOC's fault if people won't grow up and understand that there are problems that are beyond their control.

I think most people appreciate that the landslip at Barnehurst is beyond the TOC's control but sunlight on the monitor? Lewisham is normally well staffed so surely they can assist drivers as necessary?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interesting. SE have publicly said on twitter numerous times it can be done by the driver. They'll usually reply with something like 'thanks for letting us know. The driver will change it when you get to x station'.

Nightmare today on the roads and other lines with Bexleyheath line's closure. Rail replacement buses from just Bexleyheath to Blackheath took 90 mins+. Another 90 mins to get to central London from there if staying on a bus and not making it to Lewisham to board (which was not easy of course).

Some complained of a lack of staff and info at stations. Given busy stations can have few staff normally that's maybe not surprising but again how much of that is SE's fault?

Absolute nightmare on the roads for miles around, the stations in question are normally staffed in the daytime but obviously the staff themselves may have had difficulty getting in? I think most people rely on social media nowadays anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Services also suspended between Sevenoaks and Tonbridge due to emergency services dealing with an incident.

 

[gtr driver]

I think most people appreciate that the landslip at Barnehurst is beyond the TOC's control but sunlight on the monitor? Lewisham is normally well staffed so surely they can assist drivers as necessary?

Lewisham is not on my routes so I can't say for sure, but I imagine the staff dispatch set up if it exists at all would need multiple bodies due to the curves. Plus trained staff and equipment. Probably not possible at short notice and the sunlight problem won't last all day as the angle of the sun changes. Railway doesn't have much in the way of spare staff due to the way it's financed and run and you could not have untrained people without equipment dispatching or drivers accepting such a practice due to safety rules (good) and blame culture (bad).

 

[Antman]

Lewisham is not on my routes so I can't say for sure, but I imagine the staff dispatch set up if it exists at all would need multiple bodies due to the curves. Plus trained staff and equipment. Probably not possible at short notice and the sunlight problem won't last all day as the angle of the sun changes. Railway doesn't have much in the way of spare staff due to the way it's financed and run and you could not have untrained people without equipment dispatching or drivers accepting such a practice due to safety rules (good) and blame culture (bad).

I understand your points completely but what I had in mind was something a bit less scientific, basically somebody holding up some board or whatever to keep the sun off the monitor and hopefully giving the driver a clear view.

This story has now made Sky News, why didn't Southeastern just keep quiet about it? I don't suppose anybody would have even noticed the slight delay amidst all the other problems this morning, trains are often delayed at Lewisham awaiting a signal anyway

 

[Lynford1976]

My understanding from the BBC News article is that trains were simply delayed by an extra few minutes because of the monitor issues at Lewisham.

If this is correct, then are people really that impatient nowadays? Sad.

 

[SPADTrap]

My understanding from the BBC News article is that trains were simply delayed by an extra few minutes because of the monitor issues at Lewisham.

If this is correct, then are people really that impatient nowadays? Sad.

Pretty much. I stopped at a station where we use the DOO monitors in the cab to dispatch our Electrostars and they were totally bright white from the sun. I asked the platform staff to CD/RA me but I couldn't see the CD indicator either as I was past the 4 car 'repeater' with an 8 car train but as it is a 12 car platform there is some distance to the signal with the CD/RA equipment. I had to remain there until the platform staff reconfigured with bats and flags and a second member of staff owing to platform curvature, there is no other option.

 

[ComUtoR]

I had to remain there until the platform staff reconfigured with bats and flags and a second member of staff owing to platform curvature, there is no other option.

We have another option.