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Petition for Manchester Piccadilly platforms 15 & 16

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Killingworth

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Yes, which is why I did not say there weren't any. However, IIRC they are about 20% of its users. Many of them probably don't need to be making their international journeys in the first place.

I suspect that I could kill certain forum members' close relatives and receive a less outraged response than I receive when I question the importance of Manchester Airport.

I don't question what you say about 20% but note that business users are significantly more likely to be paying full air fares and first class on trains. They clearly do think they need to be making their journeys. I know my son would much prefer to stay at home with his family this week than having to fly the Atlantic to seal a deal. He's done all he can to avoid the trip!
 
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B&I

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I don't question what you say about 20% but note that business users are significantly more likely to be paying full air fares and first class on trains. They clearly do think they need to be making their journeys. I know my son would much prefer to stay at home with his family this week than having to fly the Atlantic to seal a deal. He's done all he can to avoid the trip!


The numbers travelling to the airport, whatever the reasons for their journeys, are still rather less than those travelling to actual city centres
 

GRALISTAIR

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. If the government won't sort Castlefield out, and if the stopper is moved back to Victoria, they should at least do the infrastructure work necessary to run the stopper round to Victoria via Phillips Park (maybe doing something similar with the Southport service).
As long as they electrify that route. Stopper with good acceleration cries out to be sparked up.
 

B&I

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As long as they electrify that route. Stopper with good acceleration cries out to be sparked up.


Or use a bi-mode, if one can be produced which works.

Also, as inner city Manchester is gradually rebuilt, I'd suggest there's justification for new stations on this alignment. Perhaps platforms to serve it at Ardwick, and new stations at the stadium, and close to the junction between the Rochdale and Stalybridge lines.
 

B&I

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If not the Airport, where should services through Castlefield terminate?


If the infrastructure could cope with it without requiring other services fo be culled, I'm happy for services to.continue terminating at the airport. In the short term, though, I'd suggest terminating eastbound long distance services at Piccadilly, and westbound shorter distance ones at Stalybridge and / or Rochdale after running through Victoria.
 

Esker-pades

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If the infrastructure could cope with it without requiring other services fo be culled, I'm happy for services to.continue terminating at the airport. In the short term, though, I'd suggest terminating eastbound long distance services at Piccadilly, and westbound shorter distance ones at Stalybridge and / or Rochdale after running through Victoria.
Which eastbound services are you referring to? The only one I can think of that continues to the Airport is the service from Cleethorpes.

Are there paths and platforms through Victoria to do this? Victoria isn't brimming with spare capacity either.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Yes, which is why I did not say there weren't any. However, IIRC they are about 20% of its users. Many of them probably don't need to be making their international journeys in the first place.

Are you speaking from experience about the lack of need for business travellers above? Conference calls are sufficient for preliminary and generalised group discussions, but speaking from over thirty years experience in senior management visiting overseas clients, there are numerous other occasions where the visit is essential, such as evaluating manufacturing capacity, meetings with merchant banks, etc.
 

js1000

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If not the Airport, where should services through Castlefield terminate?
Often forgot that one of the benefits of the new platforms at Piccadilly would be to allow for trains to terminate at Piccadilly if needs be.

Staff have to check the terminating train at Piccadilly is empty for a good 4-5 minutes before going on to sidings. With two platforms available it won't be holding up all services behind (which is currently the case with the TfW service) as the service behind can funnel into the other 'up' platform.

Network Rail's report explains the deficiencies of terminating the Liverpool stopping service to Oxford Road and how conflicting move is complex. If the bay platform is to go at Oxford Road then I imagine that service would terminate at Piccadilly once new platforms are in place.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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If the passenger flows to the airport are so colossal, MAG should fund the infrastructure necessary from their massive turnover to allow direct services to it, bypassing central Manchester. Odd how the Fellowship of the Ringway goes quiet whenever this suggestion is made.

Are you aware of the various local authority bodies who have a financial stake in Manchester Airport? Do you not feel that Manchester Airport has anything to do with car parking provision for a vast number of travellers to the airport, some of whom use the access road connections to and from the M56 and the recently new A555 road connection.
 

Mogster

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Telecon’s have their place, regular catchup calls of an hour or so with a handful of participants. Longer than that or with more people involved and a face to face meeting is more productive. People interact better and much more gets done.
 

Purple Orange

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If the passenger flows to the airport are so colossal, MAG should fund the infrastructure necessary from their massive turnover to allow direct services to it, bypassing central Manchester. Odd how the Fellowship of the Ringway goes quiet whenever this suggestion is made.

It is quite a useful destination. 5m people used the station last year, so I suppose you must believe that the optimal number is somewhat north of that. Let’s extend your analogy further. Why bother going to Lime St? It has 15m passengers, which some may deem too small to bother with. Why bother with Hull? To small to clog up the ECML with a few services to Kings Cross.

If Liverpool want HS2, perhaps the local authority should pay for it? It is the same argument that is said for extending HS2 to Scotland.
 

Esker-pades

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Often forgot that one of the benefits of the new platforms at Piccadilly would be to allow for trains to terminate at Piccadilly if needs be.

Staff have to check the terminating train at Piccadilly is empty for a good 4-5 minutes before going on to sidings. With two platforms available it won't be holding up all services behind (which is currently the case with the TfW service) as the service behind can funnel into the other 'up' platform.

Network Rail's report explains the deficiencies of terminating the Liverpool stopping service to Oxford Road and how conflicting move is complex. If the bay platform is to go at Oxford Road then I imagine that service would terminate at Piccadilly once new platforms are in place.
But, until then, where?
 

Bletchleyite

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Telecon’s have their place, regular catchup calls of an hour or so with a handful of participants. Longer than that or with more people involved and a face to face meeting is more productive. People interact better and much more gets done.

The usual approach in our organisation is that most meetings are only an hour's teleconf with a few people. You can often concentrate bigger meetings together into workshop sessions or "town hall" days, avoiding excessive repeated travel.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The usual approach in our organisation is that most meetings are only an hour's teleconf with a few people. You can often concentrate bigger meetings together into workshop sessions or "town hall" days, avoiding excessive repeated travel.

Quite true, viewed as a perspective for localised British business meetings, but the point of globalised overseas business meetings where delegates from a number of different countries need to be gathered together where physical evaluations of working practises and equipment utilisation could be made, when visits are made to locations seems not to enter the commercial thought patterns of some on this thread.

When I was in Canada from 1995-2004 on a Hydro project, where we were the project lead, it was quite common to see attendees at site meetings from quite a number of different countries.
 

Bletchleyite

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Quite true, viewed as a perspective for localised British business meetings, but the point of globalised overseas business meetings where delegates from a number of different countries need to be gathered together where physical evaluations of working practises and equipment utilisation could be made, when visits are made to locations seems not to enter the commercial thought patterns of some on this thread.

When I was in Canada from 1995-2004 on a Hydro project, where we were the project lead, it was quite common to see attendees at site meetings from quite a number of different countries.

Precisely the kind of environment where you want to group meetings into workshop weeks where everyone is there together at the start of a project phase so the rest is then done by teleconference.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Precisely the kind of environment where you want to group meetings into workshop weeks where everyone is there together at the start of a project phase so the rest is then done by teleconference.

When you are actually "on site", physically evaluating machinery and possible upgrades that could improve production efficiencies, site engineers under ones "jurisdiction" and those of other countries whose products all went towards the master working plan have to be there in person. I am not just making reference to financial and commercial matters.

Look at the number of Chinese business visitors who have visited the area of the Manchester Airport business park developments that are on part of the future Manchester Airport site expansion plans. If as one particular contributor to this thread seems unwilling to accept the reality of globalised business in relation to Manchester Airport, not your good self may I add, then I am indeed sad.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Look at the number of Chinese business visitors who have visited the area of the Manchester Airport business park developments that are on part of the future Manchester Airport site expansion plans. If as one particular contributor to this thread seems unwilling to accept the reality of globalised business in relation to Manchester Airport, not your good self may I add, then I am indeed sad.

I share your sadness. It is unfortunately the case that one obstacle to obtaining further financial commitments from central government towards projects in the north is the parochialism exhibited by some contributors to public discussions. It was to the credit of attendees to lasts week's TfN public board meeting that the need to avoid such narrow mindedness was so widely recognised.
 

Killingworth

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I'm drifting a little way from the main topic, but the airport is a signifcant part of the challenge. It's surprising where users come from and go to. We who live in Britain don't see things as others see us. There's significant incoming traffic flow as well and getting them where they want to go is important. It's not just British tourists and business people.

An anecdote. I was picking up tickets at Dore one morning last summer when the East Midlands Liverpool - Norwich arrived at about 8.30. A Chinese couple alighted with all their luggage and looked puzzled. Fortunately they spoke English. I thought they'd got off a station too early and should have gone into Sheffield. No this is where they wanted to be and they showed me the app that told them to change here for the bus to Chatsworth.

They had their entire tour of Britain timed precisely. Clearly seasoned and resourceful travellers they'd arrived at the airport early that morning and Chatsworth was to be their first call - together with all their luggage! The bus driver was probably taken aback, but off they went.

What they'd have thought of 13/14 at the time they must have been there is anyone's guess!
 

Bletchleyite

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What they'd have thought of 13/14 at the time they must have been there is anyone's guess!

I'd imagine the general Chinese impression of the UK is of things being smaller and less crowded - yes, even 13/14. And our small trains probably give the whole system the feeling of a city metro.

And yes, there are Chinese equivalents of the Euston scrum, though goodness only knows why as all their long-distance trains have compulsory reservations. I suspect it's cultural to want to be there first even if you don't need to.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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I'm drifting a little way from the main topic, but the airport is a signifcant part of the challenge.

It certainly is. I rather get the impression that those who dismiss its value as a destination on the north's rail network are those who rarely or never fly themselves and don't believe anyone else should either. That view not only ignores the current trend in demand for air travel, environmental concerns not withstanding, but also underestimates the size of the Airport City development and its longer-term effect on travel to work demands across the region. In terms of what might be ideal we really need the full development of HSR but in the meantime there are other relatively expensive projects that will have to be undertaken if rail is to have a meaningful role in the rebalancing of the economy. The "Graylinging" of infrastructure projects needs to stop!
 

The Ham

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You have posted all of this before, and it was incorrect then too. The airport is simply not as important as some people on here think it is.

At 4.6 million passengers a year it is a fairly important station at a regional level. However when stations like Farnborough Main (iyd guess that few would even have heard of it compared to the numbers aware that Manchester Airport has a station) sees 3 million passengers a year with there being only 4tph (and with a fairly limited rage of destinations) then it does lead to the question of if there was something better which could be done without impacting on passenger numbers all that much?
 

Greybeard33

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At 4.6 million passengers a year it is a fairly important station at a regional level. However when stations like Farnborough Main (iyd guess that few would even have heard of it compared to the numbers aware that Manchester Airport has a station) sees 3 million passengers a year with there being only 4tph (and with a fairly limited rage of destinations) then it does lead to the question of if there was something better which could be done without impacting on passenger numbers all that much?
I suggest that a more meaningful footfall comparison is with the satellite towns in Greater Manchester, which are employment and shopping centres in their own right as well as serving flows to central Manchester.
Airport, 9tph to Manchester, 4.6m
Stockport, 15tph, 3.8m
Bolton, 7tph, 3.0m
Wigan (NW + Wallgate), 6tph, 3.0m

When we look at the stations that could turn back trains from the west, as an alternative to sending them to the Airport, the comparison is even more stark:
Rochdale 1.2m
Stalybridge 1.2m
Hazel Grove 0.7m
Alderley Edge 0.3m
Clearly services diverted to any of these would, on average, carry more fresh air than they currently do to the Airport. Plus, for services through Piccadilly, the Airport is a nearer terminus than Hazel Grove or Alderley Edge, and avoids conflicts with services to/from the main shed.

When the 2018-19 statistics are released tomorrow, I suspect we will find Airport footfall has increased further.
 

Jozhua

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You say that like being 995 years early is a bad thing ;).
On a serious note, why hasn't there been heads rolling for these massively delayed projects?
More like it'll be 995 years late, just like 15/16 :lol:
The truth is now out of the bag.....:rolleyes:

Orignal corrected:smile:
Tbh 3018 sounded about right.

If the passenger flows to the airport are so colossal, MAG should fund the infrastructure necessary from their massive turnover to allow direct services to it, bypassing central Manchester. Odd how the Fellowship of the Ringway goes quiet whenever this suggestion is made.

Fellowship of the Ringway :lol:

Manchester Airport won't even fund decent security and a functional baggage system so doubt it'd put money towards solving these issues.

If expansions happen to the station though, MAG should definitely be one of the largest contributors.
I suggest that a more meaningful footfall comparison is with the satellite towns in Greater Manchester, which are employment and shopping centres in their own right as well as serving flows to central Manchester.
Airport, 9tph to Manchester, 4.6m
Stockport, 15tph, 3.8m
Bolton, 7tph, 3.0m
Wigan (NW + Wallgate), 6tph, 3.0m

When we look at the stations that could turn back trains from the west, as an alternative to sending them to the Airport, the comparison is even more stark:
Rochdale 1.2m
Stalybridge 1.2m
Hazel Grove 0.7m
Alderley Edge 0.3m
Clearly services diverted to any of these would, on average, carry more fresh air than they currently do to the Airport. Plus, for services through Piccadilly, the Airport is a nearer terminus than Hazel Grove or Alderley Edge, and avoids conflicts with services to/from the main shed.

When the 2018-19 statistics are released tomorrow, I suspect we will find Airport footfall has increased further.

Good point, to be fair though, there are a lot of stations served in between on those routes, although the airport route does serve a couple in South Manchester.

I personally use the airport services quite a bit when available, there is generally enough capacity to shovel people towards the city centre and the new TPE and Northern trains will definitely help with that.

Honestly, it would be nice to have early morning services that arrive about 5/6am to cater for the transatlantic and other early morning passengers, I end up using taxis quite a bit for those.

I've suggested ridding one of the Ordsall Chord services to help resolve capacity issues, so that'd be one of the airport trains gone. I don't quite know what other train would be reasonable to cut.
 

Killingworth

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At 4.6 million passengers a year it is a fairly important station at a regional level. However when stations like Farnborough Main (iyd guess that few would even have heard of it compared to the numbers aware that Manchester Airport has a station) sees 3 million passengers a year with there being only 4tph (and with a fairly limited rage of destinations) then it does lead to the question of if there was something better which could be done without impacting on passenger numbers all that much?

The ORR estimates of passenger numbers at stations for 2018/19 are due tomorrow and should make interesting reading.They're always looked on with suspicion, particularly with split ticketing probably inflating numbers. However as a purely terminal station at growing Manchester Airport they must be expected to show higher growth than most?
 

B&I

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Which eastbound services are you referring to? The only one I can think of that continues to the Airport is the service from Cleethorpes.

Are there paths and platforms through Victoria to do this? Victoria isn't brimming with spare capacity either.


Redirect some of the TPE services which currently run via Victoria to.the airport to Piccadilly. The latter isn-/ brimming with capacity, but a train terminating there is taking up.less capacity than one wandering the whole way round central Manchester from Victoria
 

B&I

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Are you speaking from experience about the lack of need for business travellers above? Conference calls are sufficient for preliminary and generalised group discussions, but speaking from over thirty years experience in senior management visiting overseas clients, there are numerous other occasions where the visit is essential, such as evaluating manufacturing capacity, meetings with merchant banks, etc.


I have no personal experience of international business travel. However, I know plenty of people who fly round the place doing things which don't need to be done face to face. Do merchant banks not have phones of other communication systems ?

I do have a lot of experience of national business travel, which makes me aware of how poor links between even the largest British cities outside London are. I rather feel that investing in these would promote productivity and economic development within Britain to a greater degree than promoting the growth of airports, whose main role in our economy is to extract money from it by promoting foreign tourism.
 
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