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Petition for Manchester Piccadilly platforms 15 & 16

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HSTEd

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Well my own position is that we can simplify the timetable slightly by simply making all trains between Picadilly and the Airport stop at all stations between them.

Combined with the dominance of the Castlefield Corridor, that gives us a de-facto metro line in South Manchester, and doesn't upset airport passengers by taking their direct trains away.

Where do the Styal Line stoppers currently go? They could be abolished under such a system.
 
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WatcherZero

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That's adding 30% to the journey time of the trains and you would have to reduce the frequency as without skip stop the gap between would be small enough that would be constantly catching up to each other and waiting at stations for the previous one to depart.
 

krus_aragon

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The new services will provide plenty of extra capacity between Llandudno and Chester and Northern will be running Chester-Leeds at the end of this month. I doubt any extra capacity will provided in addition to this between Manchester, Chester and Llandudno.
A farir point. The Northern services had slipped my mind.
 

Killingworth

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No, but my point was how long it took from establishing that there was a problem to actually doing something about it, and all that required was some rolling stock, not a major construction project.

You're not wrong there. Yesterday, Bank Holiday Monday, the 8.52 Liverpool-Norwich was short formed. It made it to Piccadilly only 2 minutes late but must have been overwhelmed, leaving 7 minutes late. That must have had knock on impact in the Manchester area.

It was late at Dore and had to follow a XC service into 2C, rather than preceding it into 2A, picking up further delay as users spilled out and got back in again. It left Sheffield 13 minutes late.

We certainly need more rolling stock, but platforms and track are needed too, especially in the Castlefield corridor and at Piccadilly.

I was in Cologne recently. Lots of through platforms. Lots of long trains of many types, most seemingly with plenty of space. It isn't 100% efficient. A train for Aachen and Brussels was being cancelled due to a technical fault on the train, replaced by just 2 buses.

I signed this petition months ago and it's still to reach 1000 signatories. It's unlikely to have any effect, but at least it's got the subject reopened here.
 
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Bantamzen

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You're not wrong there. Yesterday, Bank Holiday Monday, the 8.52 Liverpool-Norwich was short formed. It made it to Piccadilly only 2 minutes late but must have been overwhelmed, leaving 7 minutes late. That must have had knock on impact in the Manchester area.

It was late at Dore and had to follow a XC service into 2C, rather than preceding it into 2A, picking up further delay as users spilled out and got back in again. It left Sheffield 13 minutes late.

We certainly need more rolling stock, but platforms and track are needed too, especially in the Castlefield corridor and at Piccadilly.

I was in Cologne recently. Lots of through platforms. Lots of long trains of many types, most seemingly with plenty of space. It isn't 100% efficient. A train for Aachen and Brussels was being cancelled due to a technical fault on the train, replaced by just 2 buses.

I signed this petition months ago and it's still to reach 1000 signatories. It's unlikely to have any effect, but at least it's got the subject reopened here.

At the end of the day, and I'm sure we all agree on this, more capacity will help reduce dwell times which will help improve service efficiency through the corridor (as well as at other pinch points around the network). Manchester is far from alone with the short units versus large passenger interchanges, P15 & P16 at Leeds at peak times are a very good example of services getting delayed as too many passengers fight for too little space. The problem here is that there is a perception that trains need to be as full as possible most if not all of the time, and that carrying around any fresh air is bad. The government could help here by relaxing it's stance on subsidies, recognising that to help the major operators improve the overall situation, releasing extra capacity even if it doesn't immediately fills up will help the network as a whole improve and that this is something they could easily help fund.

Having longer units (which associated longer platforms wherever possible) is the closest to a quick win, especially as the Castlefield TOCs currently have ongoing build contracts that could be increased to turn 2 & 3 car units at Northern into a standard of 4, and TPE from 5 to 6 or even 7. In the short term this will prevent the long dwell times when a 2 car unit rocks up with hundreds trying to get off & on, and in the long term will help encourage future new passengers to increase revenue & reduce subsidy requirements.

Now all we need is a proactive, future thinking government. Oh wait....
 

Killingworth

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I live within a mile of a station with a direct service to the Airport. I've never used it. Why not?

By road I know it will take about 75 minutes, home to car park - that time made more predictable since the A555 link road was completed. I can park at the terminal required, a shorter walk than from the station. I know my car will be on my drive and will wait for me if I'm late.

When I get back it's straight to the car and away, no checking for train times, no heaving luggage onto a train and finding space in a very limited area by a door to stow it, guarding it and maybe having to change onto an overcrowded service from another platform at Piccadilly. I still need to get too and from my local station.

I did think of trying the train for my latest flight. Sunday morning! Nothing available so would have required an overnight stay. Not sure the reliability and overcrowding on the train would have encouraged me to start from home an hour earlier than using the car all the way.

The potential for more use of rail services is vast. Reliability, availability and comfort are all crucial, speed is a welcome bonus.

BTW, having to traipse from T2 back to T1 was a pain after a terminal change, but not as daunting as inter platform transfers from 13 and 14 at Piccadilly. Apparently more than half of Piccadilly users use those 2 platforms.
 

HSTEd

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That's adding 30% to the journey time of the trains and you would have to reduce the frequency as without skip stop the gap between would be small enough that would be constantly catching up to each other and waiting at stations for the previous one to depart.
Was that a reply to me?

Adding journey time is not a significant problem since people take direct trains to the airport for convenience, not arriving five minutes faster!
Also, why would the frequency have to be reduced? Train systems elsewhere in the world running at frequencies that high without running into such issues, and since every train would be stopping every station........

(I make it ~9 trains between Manchester Picadilly and the Airport per hour, it seems highly unlikely that platform occupancies would be the limiting factor there!
An average train will be static in the platform for no more than a minute, which means it will be away long before the next train arrives.)
 

cle

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Every station is too much. Skip stopping is useful though. Nobody would or should take a train between Mauldeth Road and Burnage, for instance.

So one of those, one of East Didsbury and Gatley, and maybe 60-70% as pathing allows at Heald Green? All have a reasonable amount of users, between 250-450k - which is definitely suppressed demand and no outliers on either end of the spectrum.
 

Bletchleyite

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Every station is too much. Skip stopping is useful though. Nobody would or should take a train between Mauldeth Road and Burnage, for instance.

Yet exactly this kind of use-case is common on Merseyrail, and should be on any urban transit network. I bet it is on Merseyrail as well. Skip-stopping is not ideal at all.

East Didsbury is also a major interchange and needs more making of it. There's a strong argument that everything should stop there.
 

cle

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Yet exactly this kind of use-case is common on Merseyrail, and should be on any urban transit network. I bet it is on Merseyrail as well. Skip-stopping is not ideal at all.

East Didsbury is also a major interchange and needs more making of it. There's a strong argument that everything should stop there.
Is there? Hardly anybody in Manchester buys separate NR and tram tickets. Or bus for that matter - and if bus, which company?!

Sadly this isn't Switzerland or the Netherlands with real integration. I agree that it should be, by rights, a major interchange, buses included - but it isn't. Gatley and Mauldeth Road have higher rail usage. Perhaps one day, and if the tram went down to Stockport too.
 

Greybeard33

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Where do the Styal Line stoppers currently go? They could be abolished under such a system.
The only Styal line stopper is the hourly Crewe to Lime Street (which terminates at Piccadilly in the evening peak). It provides the only direct service to Piccadilly and the Airport from stations on the Chat Moss line.
 

HSTEd

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Every station is too much. Skip stopping is useful though. Nobody would or should take a train between Mauldeth Road and Burnage, for instance.
Why not?
It's 20 minutes on foot, or two minutes on the train?

This is exactly the kind of use case seen in metro lines elsewhere?
 

Jozhua

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Why not?
It's 20 minutes on foot, or two minutes on the train?

This is exactly the kind of use case seen in metro lines elsewhere?

Perhaps with some nice snappy 331's Northern could run a metro style service down to the airport... As an ocassional airport user, however, I like my express trains ;)
 

HSTEd

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Perhaps with some nice snappy 331's Northern could run a metro style service down to the airport... As an ocassional airport user, however, I like my express trains ;)
Aren't the bulk of the trains between Picadilly and the Airport either electric, and thus have potentially unlimited performance, or Class 185s, which are made of engine?

This false dichotomy between metro service trains and express trains is become a little silly.

A Class 185 has plenty of standing space to be operated in a metro role without disturbing the longer distance passengers, who almost certainly won't notice the few extra minutes it takes them to reach the airport.
 
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Is there? Hardly anybody in Manchester buys separate NR and tram tickets. Or bus for that matter - and if bus, which company?!

Sadly this isn't Switzerland or the Netherlands with real integration. I agree that it should be, by rights, a major interchange, buses included - but it isn't. Gatley and Mauldeth Road have higher rail usage. Perhaps one day, and if the tram went down to Stockport too.
Mauldeth Road, which I use frequently, and Gatley have >40 minute gaps between Manchester-bound trains which is much more of a nuisance than skip stopping.
 

cle

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Really a 10 or 15-minute headway metro EMU service would be appropriate to this route.
This is suburban/regional rail, not an actual metro. 10-15 min headways are not great for 2 min journeys, really.

The 20 min walk / 2 min train ride has a happy medium in between it - THE BUS! That is the mode which should be used for those local journeys, unless we are building a tube or a Metrolink line.

edit - Merseyrail is an insulated local service. This features services to Scotland and across the North - and at its end has the only major airport north of the M25 - a totally different purpose than Merseyrail, which is more like London Overground.
 

Greybeard33

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East Didsbury is also a major interchange and needs more making of it. There's a strong argument that everything should stop there.
East Didsbury is the antithesis of a major interchange.

The elevated station has separate access from street level to each windswept platform, by stairway or zigzag ramp. Signage is poor and if you find yourself on the wrong platform you have to go all the way down and back up the other side.

The bus terminus is on the opposite side of a busy dual carriageway from the station. From there, the Metrolink terminus is on the opposite side of another busy main road.

Rail, bus and tram are all in competition for journeys to Manchester.

The place could be used as a case study in how not to integrate public transport modes.
 

Greybeard33

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Aren't the bulk of the trains between Picadilly and the Airport either electric, and thus have potentially unlimited performance, or Class 185s, which are made of engine?

This false dichotomy between metro service trains and express trains is become a little silly.

A Class 185 has plenty of standing space to be operated in a metro role without disturbing the longer distance passengers, who almost certainly won't notice the few extra minutes it takes them to reach the airport.
Once TPE introduces its new trains, only one of its four Airport services will be formed of 185s. The others will be 397s, 802s and Mk5A LHCS, all end door stock unsuited to metro services. Of Northern's four services, two will be diesel 195s, one 331s and the stopper 319s or 323s. Of the 9tph to Piccadilly (including TfW) only four will use the wires.
 

daodao

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Once TPE introduces its new trains, only one of its four Airport services will be formed of 185s. The others will be 397s, 802s and Mk5A LHCS, all end door stock unsuited to metro services. Of Northern's four services, two will be diesel 195s, one 331s and the stopper 319s or 323s. Of the 9tph to Piccadilly (including TfW) only four will use the wires.

TPE should not be running services to Manchester Airport. The route should be used by Northern Rail only to provide decent connections to Manchester city centre and local towns in NW England, wherever possible using electric trains. A regular interval stopping service, calling at all stations and running at least every 15-20 minutes Mon-Sat daytime, should be provided for the local stations from Heald Green to Mauldeth Road inclusive. Fast trains, every 15-20 minutes, should run non-stop to Piccadilly/Oxford Road and then continue to Liverpool, Blackpool and Rochdale (continuing to Blackburn via Burnley and/or Leeds via Bradford). The hourly service to Crewe should continue.
 
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Killingworth

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Let's be fair. If rail access to the Airport were started now it would be best to provide a fast dedicated shuttle service from Piccadilly every 10 minutes at peak times. The trains to be roomy, designed to carry the large items of luggage carried today. Such trains should interchange as far as possible on the level with trains to all parts at Piccadilly. No preferences for Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Scarborough, Wigan nor Sheffield. As less than 10% of travellers from those places go to the Airport the trains usually empty at Piccadilly. Some refill to go to the Airport, exactly what would happen with a shuttle.

Too late. Too many people now expect direct airport services. No city will easily give up their direct connection. It's a toothpaste back in tube situation!
 

Jozhua

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Let's be fair. If rail access to the Airport were started now it would be best to provide a fast dedicated shuttle service from Piccadilly every 10 minutes at peak times. The trains to be roomy, designed to carry the large items of luggage carried today. Such trains should interchange as far as possible on the level with trains to all parts at Piccadilly. No preferences for Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Scarborough, Wigan nor Sheffield. As less than 10% of travellers from those places go to the Airport the trains usually empty at Piccadilly. Some refill to go to the Airport, exactly what would happen with a shuttle.

Too late. Too many people now expect direct airport services. No city will easily give up their direct connection. It's a toothpaste back in tube situation!

The only access to some airports is a dedicated shuttle. Flew into NY JFK airport and the only rail connection is the JFK airtrain. However, it connects to other rail services at Jamaica interchange well (LIRR, Subway) and due to it's frequency you don't have to worry about timetables!

An airport shuttle running through to Victoria maybe 2/3 times an hour vs a Transpennine Express train would be good. TPE trains are more likely to be delayed due to the distances involved, having a knock on effect on the Castlefield Corridor. Another few trains an hour from Piccadilly would create a very robust service! However, there is the slight problem that the airport station is run by Transpennine Express.
 

Bantamzen

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TPE should not be running services to Manchester Airport. The route should be used by Northern Rail only to provide decent connections to Manchester city centre and local towns in NW England, wherever possible using electric trains. A regular interval stopping service, calling at all stations and running at least every 15-20 minutes Mon-Sat daytime, should be provided for the local stations from Heald Green to Mauldeth Road inclusive. Fast trains, every 15-20 minutes, should run non-stop to Piccadilly/Oxford Road and then continue to Liverpool, Blackpool and Rochdale (continuing to Blackburn via Burnley and/or Leeds via Bradford). The hourly service to Crewe should continue.

Let's be fair. If rail access to the Airport were started now it would be best to provide a fast dedicated shuttle service from Piccadilly every 10 minutes at peak times. The trains to be roomy, designed to carry the large items of luggage carried today. Such trains should interchange as far as possible on the level with trains to all parts at Piccadilly. No preferences for Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Scarborough, Wigan nor Sheffield. As less than 10% of travellers from those places go to the Airport the trains usually empty at Piccadilly. Some refill to go to the Airport, exactly what would happen with a shuttle.

Too late. Too many people now expect direct airport services. No city will easily give up their direct connection. It's a toothpaste back in tube situation!

Well you had both better let the holding company, owned in part by the boroughs of Greater Manchester this. Because part of their large expansion plan at the airport is to have it linked to large parts of it's customer base with direct trains running from the various hubs such as Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, York, Sheffield etc. And the reason for not just making Manchester Airport an exclusive North West product is that they are expanding their long haul routes, and passenger numbers from all over the North of England are growing at a pace. This is causing serious problems, particularly on the M62 which almost daily sees long queues, accidents & delays. The train, is seen as a alternative to a growing number of people, but in order to attract them there needs to be a way of getting them from their home station, through a hub and onto the Skywalk at Manchester to head for their terminals without numerous changes of trains and even modes. If this is supressed by curtailing long distance services, there will be more traffic on the roads around GM.

The only access to some airports is a dedicated shuttle. Flew into NY JFK airport and the only rail connection is the JFK airtrain. However, it connects to other rail services at Jamaica interchange well (LIRR, Subway) and due to it's frequency you don't have to worry about timetables!

An airport shuttle running through to Victoria maybe 2/3 times an hour vs a Transpennine Express train would be good. TPE trains are more likely to be delayed due to the distances involved, having a knock on effect on the Castlefield Corridor. Another few trains an hour from Piccadilly would create a very robust service! However, there is the slight problem that the airport station is run by Transpennine Express.

There are plenty of airports that require multiple changes of mode to get onto towards passengers main destinations. Many of these are legacy systems with newer, bolted on solutions to try as resolve growing transit issues. It doesn't mean that they are the right solutions for other airports, or even the ones they serve. Watch this space at Heathrow when the realisation that the third runway and additional terminal drives the debate about linking the airport up with the network without having to change in London over the coming years!

I wish people when debating this issue would stop dreaming of some lovely Manc-Bahn system for Manchester, with a Heathrow Express type shuttle to service long distance passengers because neither is going to happen. I've repeated this goodness knows how many times, but GM's airport is expanding, rapidly. That means more punters either coming in on trains, or if the provision isn't attractive further clogging up the roads. That the good folk of the Style line don't have a high frequency, clockface metro service is unfortunate. But let's be utterly frank here, Greater Manchester has a far better public transport system than many other large metropolitan areas, cities and towns. And it benefits greatly economically with the large amount of employment (around 22-24K people I believe) that the airport creates directly let alone the secondary employment & economic benefits it brings.

So getting a handful of long distance services through Manchester shouldn't be an issue, it requires some simple tweaks to things like stopping patterns & timings, and in the longer term would benefit greatly from the rest of the proposed development currently gathering dust somewhere in Grayling's office. Stop the direct airport services and you simply move the problem to another part of the infrastructure, making things worse not better. It is what it is I'm afraid, Greater Manchester is heavily invested in it's airport & it needs more passengers to justify the vast amount of investment going into it's expansion. I have mentioned previously that people need to look at the bigger picture, the rail network is not some parochial train set for Manchunians, it is part of a wider infrastructure that helps drive the economy in GM and beyond.
 

daodao

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Well you had both better let the holding company, owned in part by the boroughs of Greater Manchester this. Because part of their large expansion plan at the airport is to have it linked to large parts of it's customer base with direct trains running from the various hubs such as Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, York, Sheffield etc. And the reason for not just making Manchester Airport an exclusive North West product is that they are expanding their long haul routes, and passenger numbers from all over the North of England are growing at a pace. This is causing serious problems, particularly on the M62 which almost daily sees long queues, accidents & delays. The train, is seen as a alternative to a growing number of people, but in order to attract them there needs to be a way of getting them from their home station, through a hub and onto the Skywalk at Manchester to head for their terminals without numerous changes of trains and even modes. If this is supressed by curtailing long distance services, there will be more traffic on the roads around GM.

There are plenty of airports that require multiple changes of mode to get onto towards passengers main destinations. Many of these are legacy systems with newer, bolted on solutions to try as resolve growing transit issues. It doesn't mean that they are the right solutions for other airports, or even the ones they serve. Watch this space at Heathrow when the realisation that the third runway and additional terminal drives the debate about linking the airport up with the network without having to change in London over the coming years!

I wish people when debating this issue would stop dreaming of some lovely Manc-Bahn system for Manchester, with a Heathrow Express type shuttle to service long distance passengers because neither is going to happen. I've repeated this goodness knows how many times, but GM's airport is expanding, rapidly. That means more punters either coming in on trains, or if the provision isn't attractive further clogging up the roads. That the good folk of the Style line don't have a high frequency, clockface metro service is unfortunate. But let's be utterly frank here, Greater Manchester has a far better public transport system than many other large metropolitan areas, cities and towns. And it benefits greatly economically with the large amount of employment (around 22-24K people I believe) that the airport creates directly let alone the secondary employment & economic benefits it brings.

So getting a handful of long distance services through Manchester shouldn't be an issue, it requires some simple tweaks to things like stopping patterns & timings, and in the longer term would benefit greatly from the rest of the proposed development currently gathering dust somewhere in Grayling's office. Stop the direct airport services and you simply move the problem to another part of the infrastructure, making things worse not better. It is what it is I'm afraid, Greater Manchester is heavily invested in it's airport & it needs more passengers to justify the vast amount of investment going into it's expansion. I have mentioned previously that people need to look at the bigger picture, the rail network is not some parochial train set for Manchunians, it is part of a wider infrastructure that helps drive the economy in GM and beyond.

I don't disagree with your premise in theory, but it can't be delivered reliably in practice with the current infrastructure. This thread is about building platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly, which I don't feel doing in isolation will help, given that it doesn't relieve congestion on the bottleneck of the South Junction line through Knott Mill. Quadrupling this line would be prohibitively expensive, and so its use should be confined to local NW trains and an hourly Liverpool-Sheffield service which has no alternative feasible routeing. If it is considered desirable to run direct through trains from M/c Airport to the West Riding and beyond, it should be less problematic reversing these in the main platforms at Piccadilly.
 

Bantamzen

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I don't disagree with your premise in theory, but it can't be delivered reliably in practice with the current infrastructure. This thread is about building platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly, which I don't feel doing in isolation will help, given that it doesn't relieve congestion on the bottleneck of the South Junction line through Knott Mill. Quadrupling this line would be prohibitively expensive, and so its use should be confined to local NW trains and an hourly Liverpool-Sheffield service which has no alternative feasible routeing. If it is considered desirable to run direct through trains from M/c Airport to the West Riding and beyond, it should be less problematic reversing these in the main platforms at Piccadilly.

But they can be delivered, but it needs more pragmatic operations from both TPE & Northern. For example reduce terminating and/or crew changes at Piccadilly & Oxford Road, introduce longer carriages & build in more resilience into overall paths (for example TPE splitting the Huddersfield stoppers made huge a difference). However P15/16, as well as improving Oxford Road platforms increases platform capacity, reduces congestion & effectively allows for 4 services at a time loading / unloading rather than 2. Much of what causes delay is the time it takes to board through the corridor, so improve this and you gain a significant efficiency improvement. Obviously in reality these would be staggered but with 2 platforms in each direction, a slow to board service isn't going to clog up the direction until its ready to leave.
 

Andyh82

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I travelled through there today and I’m convinced if the top brass observed what was going on, it might put Platform 15 & 16 higher up the agenda

Every service was running 4-5 minutes late, none of these services were late themselves before hand, just that once a queue forms it seems impossible to claw the time back as there are no gaps.

The worst bit though is the experience on the platform, multiple different members of staff barking orders and bellowing at passengers to move down, stand back behind the yellow line, behind the red line, use all available doors, move down the carriage, shouting out train departures, announcing the trains using the handheld microphone, as well as the usual auto announcer. I think the staff they’ve brought in would do well working at Blackpool North.

It’s also not entirely clear where a 2 or 3 car service will stop, so many people barked at to board the train, end up boarding at the first class end, and therefore end up not getting a seat.
 
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_toommm_

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It really is an interesting situation - as most of us know, there are now more and more trains going through P13/14 than ever, and since the opening of the Ordsall Chord, two an hour in each direction are expresses to/from the North of England, mixed in with semi-fasts e.g. Barrow/Windermere/Blackpool.

Naturally, an increase in the number of trains running through, and to more destinations, means an increase in passenger numbers; more so that the majority of the Airport trains run from 13. What isn't natural is the obsession with packing the said increase of passengers into a space roughly 50% the size of the whole platform.

The premise of it is there - more passengers increases the likelihood of a PTI incident. The way it is executed simply doesn't work though... No one wants to be barked at, especially after a long shift. Not only that, but most of the barking is illogical: for example, one would normally step forward when their train is arriving, but to do that on 13/14 incurs abuse from staff.

As I said, the premise is there I will concede, but the location of it is illogical, the execution is unfathomable, and it's an entirely alien concept to the rest of the UK network AFAIK. Trying to stress this to the staff gets you nowhere, even in the most calm, most well-mannered approach. I'm fully behind the approach to the yellow line, as are most people, but I, and many others, can't get behind the idea (pun not intended).
 

Mogster

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Every service was running 4-5 minutes late, none of these services were late themselves before hand, just that once a queue forms it seems impossible to claw the time back as there are no gaps.

As a daily user of Oxford Road I can confirm very little runs on time in peak hours...

A few observations : Hourly freight takes priority over passenger services and are so long they take up multiple sections it seems. TPE services regularly rock up 15 minutes late and appear to have priority over Northern services. Northern have a crew shortage so services arrive, have no crew and block the platforms. Northern have a unit shortage so overcrowded and short formed services regularly exceed their dwell times...

It’s a massive mess :s
 

Jozhua

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As a daily user of Oxford Road I can confirm very little runs on time in peak hours...

A few observations : Hourly freight takes priority over passenger services and are so long they take up multiple sections it seems. TPE services regularly rock up 15 minutes late and appear to have priority over Northern services. Northern have a crew shortage so services arrive, have no crew and block the platforms. Northern have a unit shortage so overcrowded and short formed services regularly exceed their dwell times...

It’s a massive mess :s

Freight should definitely be restricted in peak hours, no doubt about it. Perhaps Network Rail trying to run these services and turning a blind eye when it isn't working is enough to satisfy Westminster that the infrastructure is good enough, rather than running a reasonable amount of services on the line and then making Westminster realise that more capacity is needed!
 

Altfish

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Freight should definitely be restricted in peak hours, no doubt about it. Perhaps Network Rail trying to run these services and turning a blind eye when it isn't working is enough to satisfy Westminster that the infrastructure is good enough, rather than running a reasonable amount of services on the line and then making Westminster realise that more capacity is needed!
Restricting freight to peak hours won't work because they come from Southampton Felixstowe or wherever and the journeys take many hours. Unless you are suggesting parking them up from 0700 to 0900 and 1600 to 1800 then their journey will inevitably pass through at least one major conurbation during peak times.
To be fair to 0820 (ish) slots in Manchester is not often used for freight
 
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