Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
53,088
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
Is what I hear daily, I work on the GEML LST to NRW, yeah buffet is nice to have but it isn't the responsibility of the TOC to provide food and drink that's able to be purchased its your responsibility to ensure your well fed and watered and angers me when people moan wheres the buffet? There isn't one, complains to twitter
It is wrong for a TOC to advertise a service and then not provide it, whatever that service is, unless circumstances are exceptional. The GWR trolley service is failing to do that day in day out.

Trouble is other TOCs set such a unrealistic high standard on long distance journeys they come down to London and expect roses and champagne on a 1hr 49 journey, if we all set a mediocre service onboard like GWR then sad acts complaining would go away.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the Virgin Trains West Coast catering service, and it is provided reliably day in day out. Which TOC is wrong again? And there is nothing wrong with complaining about someone proposing a service then not offering it. If everyone did perhaps they'd do something about it.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

strangemonk

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2019
Messages
60
It is wrong for a TOC to advertise a service and then not provide it, whatever that service is, unless circumstances are exceptional. The GWR trolley service is failing to do that day in day out.




There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the Virgin Trains West Coast catering service, and it is provided reliably day in day out. Which TOC is wrong again? And there is nothing wrong with complaining about someone proposing a service then not offering it. If everyone did perhaps they'd do something about it.
No that's not how it should work people moaning because they can't get there way, in this day and age commuters are ever growing especially into London vast majority would prefer an extra 80 seats opposed to a buffet carriage in the AM or PM Peak. Buffet suits off peak cheap advance ticket passengers but commuters drive the vast majority of the revenue generated for most TOCs so services should be catering to the majority and most people want seats.

If companies had a few sets for the off peak and weekends that included a buffet carriage it can work but again if a company offers it but dosent deliver it, it's not guaranteed its not part of your ticket. Its a bad thing to do is say there will be refreshments on board but that's the role of the conductor to advise of this prior to departure so people are aware, and again if it dosent include it you didn't pay for one you paid to go from A to B neither a seat is guaranteed even if reserved, in times of disruption that goes too.
 

Mintona

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2006
Messages
3,244
Location
South West
No that's not how it should work people moaning because they can't get there way, in this day and age commuters are ever growing especially into London vast majority would prefer an extra 80 seats opposed to a buffet carriage in the AM or PM Peak. Buffet suits off peak cheap advance ticket passengers but commuters drive the vast majority of the revenue generated for most TOCs so services should be catering to the majority and most people want seats.
Can you back that up with figures?
 

RLBH

Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
949
If companies had a few sets for the off peak and weekends that included a buffet carriage it can work but again if a company offers it but dosent deliver it, it's not guaranteed its not part of your ticket. Its a bad thing to do is say there will be refreshments on board but that's the role of the conductor to advise of this prior to departure so people are aware, and again if it dosent include it you didn't pay for one you paid to go from A to B neither a seat is guaranteed even if reserved, in times of disruption that goes too.
That's a hell of a sentence to parse.

Even accepting the argument that buffet cars are inappropriate and that a refreshment trolley should be provided - the trolley should be provided. If it isn't, the guard making an announcement is too late to allow passengers to make a run to a food outlet or coffee shop for supplies. If it is, but can't make its' way down the train, then the train is overcrowded by any reasonable definition. Commuters will accept overcrowding, because it's the only way to get them to work and back at vaguely the right times. Intercity passengers won't accept overcrowding, because they wouldn't have their nose in someone's armpit and a third person's briefcase in their lap on any other mode of transport from London to Plymouth.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
53,088
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
If companies had a few sets for the off peak and weekends that included a buffet carriage it can work but again if a company offers it but dosent deliver it, it's not guaranteed its not part of your ticket. Its a bad thing to do is say there will be refreshments on board but that's the role of the conductor to advise of this prior to departure so people are aware, and again if it dosent include it you didn't pay for one you paid to go from A to B neither a seat is guaranteed even if reserved, in times of disruption that goes too.
I don't agree. Passengers should be compensated if the FULL service proposed to them at the time of sale was not on offer, because the TOC proposed an offering on which a decision was made to purchase.

That includes:
- A seat, if one was reserved
- Any catering that was proposed as part of the offer
- Punctuality and reliability of the journey

A seat is indeed not guaranteed if one does not reserve one, but if one does a number of TOCs will indeed provide compensation for non-provision of the service. And reasonable effort needs to go into the provision of the service, which evidently is not the case with GWR catering at present.

That issue remains whether it's a trolley or a buffet.

And putting it on the PIS is all very well (and is a good thing to do), but let's say I'm boarding at a station like Bodmin Parkway (which is quite literally in the middle of nowhere) - which shop should I go to, precisely?

As for calling things "complimentaries", that needs making illegal. Something is only complimentary if you have paid NOTHING for the service at all. If you get food when you travel First Class, it's not "complimentary", it's part of the proposed offering on which a purchasing decision was made.
 
Last edited:

Mountain Man

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2019
Messages
224
My family travelled from Padding to Penzance which is 5 hours. We didn't bring any food as expected some form of service on-board. The children where crying all the way along as they were starving.
Did you choose not to use the trolley?

And even if it wasn't available, you didn't think to bring anything?
 

43096

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
7,142
Did you choose not to use the trolley?

And even if it wasn't available, you didn't think to bring anything?
Why should you have to work on the basis that the operator will not deliver the service?

If that really how the UK railway is going to be then maybe we should just all drive instead.
 

Mountain Man

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2019
Messages
224
Why should you have to work on the basis that the operator will not deliver the service?

If that really how the UK railway is going to be then maybe we should just all drive instead.
Because it's the real world, and if you are taking a long journey with a family having back up plans is common sense
 

TrainBoy98

Member
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
375
Location
Worthing
Because it's the real world, and if you are taking a long journey with a family having back up plans is common sense
Don't get me wrong, always have a plan B when travelling with the family, but understandable to think that if a TOC is saying "Catering Provided" that realistically passengers are then expecting said catering to be provided, and shouldn't have to have a Plan B.

I don't reserve extra seats as a plan B in case my seats aren't available - you shouldn't have to plan for every little thing that could possibly go wrong.
 

Mountain Man

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2019
Messages
224
Don't get me wrong, always have a plan B when travelling with the family, but understandable to think that if a TOC is saying "Catering Provided" that realistically passengers are then expecting said catering to be provided, and shouldn't have to have a Plan B.
I disagree. If it's that important it would end up in hours of crying as stated, you should have a backup.
 

Deafdoggie

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2016
Messages
1,438
No it doesnt. A backup to the risk of standing is reserving a seat, not all the seats.
But a back up to a seat not getting reserved is to reserve another one. And the back up to that is to reserve another one...

The back up to not wanting to be hungry is to book a train with refreshments advertised.
 

Mountain Man

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2019
Messages
224
But a back up to a seat not getting reserved is to reserve another one. And the back up to that is to reserve another one...

The back up to not wanting to be hungry is to book a train with refreshments advertised.
Your logic doesn't stand up. You either reserve a seat or not. You don't try and reserve seats and hope they are reserved, they either are or they aren't.

A train company offers you the opportunity to get a seat, if you want to guarantee it, reserve

A train company offers you the opportunity of refreshments, if you want to guarantee it, bring you own.

The train company neither guarantees a seat nor refreshments.

If refreshments are essential to you, but you make no backup plans, that's your poor planning. Same as if you want a seat, but don't reserve, then you are taking the risk
 

TrainBoy98

Member
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
375
Location
Worthing
...
A train company offers you the opportunity to get a seat, if you want to guarantee it, reserve

A train company offers you the opportunity of refreshments, if you want to guarantee it, bring you own.

The train company neither guarantees a seat nor refreshments.

If refreshments are essential to you, but you make no backup plans, that's your poor planning. Same as if you want a seat, but don't reserve, then you are taking the risk
But it shouldn't have to be this way, I doubt most passengers would agree to paying for the "opportunity" of X or Y, if a TOC says "catering provided" then this is therefore to be expected. If a TOC says train expected at 13:10, then it's expected at 13:10, you shouldn't automatically have to plan for not turning up.

Yes, good planning should probably involve a plan B, But you shouldn't have to be entirely reliant on it, nor automatically assume that Plan A will never work.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
53,088
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
YA train company offers you the opportunity to get a seat, if you want to guarantee it, reserve

A train company offers you the opportunity of refreshments, if you want to guarantee it, bring you own.
No train company offers you any seat unless you reserve one. However the timetable says refreshments ARE available, not that they might be if they can be bothered (which is the level GWR are at).

An acceptable level of uncertainty is roughly around the level of uncertainty that the train will run at all (so high 90s %). This is not the case on GWR at present.
 

TrainBoy98

Member
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
375
Location
Worthing
...

A train company offers you the opportunity to get a seat, if you want to guarantee it, reserve

A train company offers you the opportunity of refreshments, if you want to guarantee it, bring you own.

The train company neither guarantees a seat nor refreshments.

If refreshments are essential to you, but you make no backup plans, that's your poor planning. Same as if you want a seat, but don't reserve, then you are taking the risk
And no, it's not your poor planning if something is being proclaimed as "provided". If TOC says "bus replacement provided" I wouldn't expect to have to have my own plan B and bring my own bus.
 

Deafdoggie

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2016
Messages
1,438
I am not saying it is good logic, but it is the logic you are using. "You want refreshments on the train that provides refreshments, bring your own" is your argument. So "You want a seat reservation on a service you have a seat reservation on best reserve more seats" is the only logical argument.
It should not be this way of course. If a TOC there is a refreshment service, there should be a refreshment service. But I do accept your argument that TOCs are so inept taken nothing as a given.
 

404250

Member
Joined
25 May 2018
Messages
363
Thinking green here and for the future... No buffet or trolley. Free water points to fill your own container. Bring your own food if you can't go a few hours without eating. Less packaging, less transport of food items, and less waste.
 

Mountain Man

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2019
Messages
224
And no, it's not your poor planning if something is being proclaimed as "provided". If TOC says "bus replacement provided" I wouldn't expect to have to have my own plan B and bring my own bus.
Provided is a meaningless term. You don't have any form of contractual relationship saying it'll be provided.

Again, your logic is flawed. You DO have a contractual relationship covering a replacement bus.

There is a huge difference between what you assume will be available and what contractually you are entitled to be available
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
53,088
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
Provided is a meaningless term. You don't have any form of contractual relationship saying it'll be provided.

Again, your logic is flawed. You DO have a contractual relationship covering a replacement bus.

There is a huge difference between what you assume will be available and what contractually you are entitled to be available
And there's the race to the bottom again. "It's OK for us to say we'll provide things and then not provide them because it's not in the contract". That, bluntly, is a despicable attitude for a business to take, and shows utter contempt for the customer.
 

Mountain Man

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2019
Messages
224
I am not saying it is good logic, but it is the logic you are using. "You want refreshments on the train that provides refreshments, bring your own" is your argument. So "You want a seat reservation on a service you have a seat reservation on best reserve more seats" is the only logical argument.
It should not be this way of course. If a TOC there is a refreshment service, there should be a refreshment service. But I do accept your argument that TOCs are so inept taken nothing as a given.
No that isn't my logic. You're mis quoting it to make a point which is wrong.

You reserve a SEAT not SEATS.
 

Mountain Man

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2019
Messages
224
And there's the race to the bottom again. "It's OK for us to say we'll provide things and then not provide them because it's not in the contract". That, bluntly, is a despicable attitude for a business to take, and shows utter contempt for the customer.
No it isn't. You agree to the contract when you buy the ticket. If you don't like the contract don't agree to it.

If you don't like the contract why on earth did you agree to it?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
53,088
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
No it isn't. You agree to the contract when you buy the ticket. If you don't like the contract don't agree to it.

If you don't like the contract why on earth did you agree to it?
That is not how consumer law works (B2C). It is how business to business (B2B) transactions work, but the majority of rail travel is not of that nature.

The answer to your question, though, is that rail travel is not on offer other than by that contract, which is precisely why B2C business doesn't work like that.
 

Mountain Man

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2019
Messages
224
That is not how consumer law works (B2C). It is how business to business (B2B) transactions work, but the majority of rail travel is not of that nature.

The answer to your question, though, is that rail travel is not on offer other than by that contract, which is precisely why B2C business doesn't work like that.
You have alternatives.

The train companies are not contractually obliged to provide you refreshments. Therefore you should plan accordingly.

Some will take the risk as we have seen in this thread, some will mitigate it by coming prepared.

The choice is the individual's
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
53,088
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
You have alternatives.

The train companies are not contractually obliged to provide you refreshments. Therefore you should plan accordingly.

Some will take the risk as we have seen in this thread, some will mitigate it by coming prepared.

The choice is the individual's
That does not make the present situation acceptable. GWR are not making even a reasonable effort to ensure provision, in my view. Virgin Trains West Coast, by contrast, seem to be achieving this quite effectively.
 

Mountain Man

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2019
Messages
224
That does not make the present situation acceptable. GWR are not making even a reasonable effort to ensure provision, in my view. Virgin Trains West Coast, by contrast, seem to be achieving this quite effectively.
If that is your perspective then it reinforces my point.

You should plan for the potential situation that it won't be available. Not as was the case of the situation which started this debate, have a 5 hour journey and children crying
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
53,088
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
If that is your perspective then it reinforces my point.
Do you consider that the present patchy provision is acceptable? I absolutely do not. If you do, then more fool you; you must have unscrupulous companies taking advantage of you all the time.

You should plan for the potential situation that it won't be available. Not as was the case of the situation which started this debate, have a 5 hour journey and children crying
This is sensible particularly with kids, but it doesn't mean it's OK for GWR not to provide a service they advertise simply because they can't acquire suitable equipment and recruit suitable staff.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top