Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

[Bromley boy]

Bearing in mind it could be anyone being served such as kids or the elderly, and walking through a busy train can mean stepping over bags, feet or people walking towards you whilst looking in another direction, and rushing, and aisles can be narrow.

I still don’t see how a plastic bag helps, and why a decent lid isn’t sufficient.

Where does it end? Is the trolley worth preserving if it can’t even serve hot drinks other than to the people it reaches?

I can see why people are in favour of scrapping it altogether. Either plan ahead and bring your own supplies or choose a Pullman dining service and treat yourself in the restaurant.

It’s strange that kitchens were specified as they have been in the 80x trains, but I don’t think the situation is going to be changing any time soon.

 

[pt_mad]

I still don’t see how a plastic bag helps.

Where does it end? Is the trolley worth preserving if it can’t even serve hot drinks other than to the people it reaches?

The trolley is designed as an at seat service of refreshments. It's supposed to go to the passenger. If it's used as a de-facto buffet when trains are busy, and is announced as such, what's to stop a customer tripping over on the way back and saying 'well they told me to come down and it's supposed to come to me'. Was it not the DFT who specified a trolley was preferable and agreed to it? That was presumably based on trains being clear enough for it to get down the train on every journey? Surely they knew the likely loading figures before they specified a trolley as suitable?

 

[Bromley boy]

The trolley is designed as an at seat service of refreshments. It's supposed to go to the passenger. If it's used as a de-facto buffet when trains are busy, and is announced as such, what's to stop a customer tripping over on the way back and saying 'well they told me to come down and it's supposed to come to me'. Was it not the DFT who specified a trolley was preferable and agreed to it? That was presumably based on trains being clear enough for it to get down the train on every journey? Surely they knew the likely loading figures before they specified a trolley as suitable?

But as we have been told it often doesn’t reach many passengers due to baggage being in the way.

Presumably if the trolley is serving from a fixed location passengers aren’t allowed to buy hot drinks, in any case, due to the risk of spillage.

I have no “skin in the game” as I don’t use the GWML much. I use the ECML a fair bit which still has buffets and I honestly can’t remember the last time I used one, even on journeys of up to three hours in length. The coffee they serve is overpriced and crap.

No argument from me in one respect: the 80x series is a poor design due to the DaFT’s involvement. But is a petition of only 2500 signatures likely to change things?

I’m amazed this topic has garnered 16 pages of discussion!

 

[virgintrain1]

Surely luggage management is a big part of the their job role like it is for XC RSMs?

 

[broadgage]

There’s a comment on the petition website which states that staff refuse to serve customers who hunt the trolley down rather than waiting for it to reach their seats.

If so, that seems a bit off.

I have observed this, for different reasons.
Firstly I have observed the trolley operator decline to sell hot drinks to customers who hunted for the trolley on "health and safety grounds" due to the perceived risk of spillage and potential injury. Not often a problem as hot water is often unavailable in any case.

I have also observed the trolley hiding in first class and declining to serve cattle class customers who have intruded into first class to search for the trolley on the grounds that they should not have entered first class and are liable to a fine for so doing.

I have also observed the trolley attendant refusing to sell anything on various grounds including.
Just got on the train, will be along later.
About to get off.
Card machine not working.
Cashed up.

The whole trolley service has been a fiasco and seems to be getting worse. BTW one reason increasingly given for the static trolley is that it is "unsafe to push it up or down the steep internal ramps" I forecast exactly this problem years ago, this was dismissed as "wibble" by IET supporters.
Another regular reason given for the trolley being static is the obstruction of the gangway by luggage, due to the very limited luggage space. Also forecast and dismissed as more "wibble"

I support the campaign to bring back buffets and have signed the petition. A proper buffet that can serve real coffee, cooked snacks like bacon rolls, and chilled beer is part of running an inter city railway service. Even if not directly profitable. After all how much profit is made by the toilets and the luggage racks ? Yet these facilities continue to be provided.
The prohibition on buffets seems to be a GWR thing, other operators still provide buffets, even on IETs.

I doubt that GWR will re-instate buffets, they have gone to a lot off effort to persuade us that these are not wanted and any return of buffets would be regarded as a climbdown or as an admission of defeat.
It would however be an easy win for a new operator of the franchise.

 

[PHILIPE]

There was an instance today when the trolley had no milk on the train's first journey of the day.
It has been posted on another Forum that a GWR senior manager addressing a gathering had a "sticky" for one question to declare the Buffet will not be back.

 

[broadgage]

There was an instance today when the trolley had no milk on the train's first journey of the day.
It has been posted on another Forum that a GWR senior manager addressing a gathering had a "sticky" for one question to declare the Buffet will not be back.

Indeed, hence my view expressed above, that GWR are most unlikely to allow a buffet.
It would however be an easy win for the next operator.
"Travel on the new improved service WITH A BUFFET"

 

[Master29]

Indeed, hence my view expressed above, that GWR are most unlikely to allow a buffet.
It would however be an easy win for the next operator.
"Travel on the new improved service WITH A BUFFET"

I agree. It would definitely be a winning ticket for the next operator, which sadly won`t be anytime soon.

 

[pt_mad]

One thought. Could they not do some sort of mini buffet trolley hybrid, where it's essentially a trolley arrangement that is static, i.e. fits inside gap somewhere or behind a locked panel or something, with the attendant being next to it? Without it having to be a counter. Could still use hot flasks same as the trolley for convenience, but it's static and designed to be as such so that passengers know where it is and can walk to it? It could still be rolled on and off and stocked elsewhere

 

[F Great Eastern]

Slightly off topic, but what are the chances of getting a seat in the Pullman Welsh Breakfast service on the 10:45am from Paddington without a first class ticket?

I'm traveling for work so they won't pay for the first class ticket unfortunately but happy to pay the £18 myself.

If not, what does the trolley offer on the IEPs?

 

[VT 390]

Slightly off topic, but what are the chances of getting a seat in the Pullman Welsh Breakfast service on the 10:45am from Paddington without a first class ticket?

I'm traveling for work so they won't pay for the first class ticket unfortunately but happy to pay the £18 myself.

If not, what does the buffet offer on the IEPs?

I would have thought that service would not be massively busy going out from London in the morning.

There are no buffets on the IEP's so they offer nothing.

 

[CptCharlee]

I honestly cant wait till First/GWR lose the franchise and we finally get a company who cares about its passengers and provides a better catering service. GWR just seem so ignorant to the whole situation. And it comes across as they frankly do not care.

 

[PaulHarding150]

Slightly off topic, but what are the chances of getting a seat in the Pullman Welsh Breakfast service on the 10:45am from Paddington without a first class ticket?

I'm traveling for work so they won't pay for the first class ticket unfortunately but happy to pay the £18 myself.

If not, what does the buffet offer on the IEPs?

I will personally pay you £18 if you can’t get a seat!

 

[F Great Eastern]

I will personally pay you £18 if you can’t get a seat!

Great, because I always wanted to try the Pullman for breakfast and didn't want to pay for the first class upgrade so I could sample it!

 

[Adsy125]

I honestly cant wait till First/GWR lose the franchise and we finally get a company who cares about its passengers and provides a better catering service. GWR just seem so ignorant to the whole situation. And it comes across as they frankly do not care.

It’s the DFT who decided GWR couldn’t have a buffet, they had no say in the matter. Speak to your MP.

 

[Clip]

I support the campaign to bring back buffets and have signed the petition. A proper buffet that can serve real coffee, cooked snacks like bacon rolls, and chilled beer is part of running an inter city railway service. Even if not directly profitable. After all how much profit is made by the toilets and the luggage racks ? Yet these facilities continue to be provided.

This is quite odd - apart from them being cleaned as an overall part of expenditure they dont actually employ a member of staff simply for that job so i dont see how you can even begin to try to use that as a comparison

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the context of the famous legal action against the fast food chain who served someone take away hot coffee without a warning that it might be hot which came with a risk of burning.

That one is often quoted but it wasn't actually quite how it seems. McD's were serving coffee at pretty much boiling point as a means of keeping it fresh for longer. There is really no need to do that, as coffee is best made slightly below boiling and not left sitting there for hours. There would be a need for tea (as that should be made with boiling water), but it wasn't tea. So the effects on the victim were far, far worse than if the coffee had been served at a conventional temperature. (OK, stick milk in it and it wouldn't be as hot, but coffee is very often consumed black in America, far more so than here).

The "warning this drink may be hot" (I hope it is!) stickers were just H&S people running away with the issue. All McDs needed to do was to reduce the temperature of their coffee.

FWIW, I've come across over-hot coffee on the UK rail network before - the little hut thing at Barnham sold me a cup of coffee (a latte, if I recall rightly, so the milk had also been over-heated) that was so scaldingly hot that (a) I got a small scald on the back of my hand as the lid inevitably leaks a bit, and (b) I couldn't drink it for a good 20 minutes. There is just no need, and I was quite miffed about it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still don’t see how a plastic bag helps, and why a decent lid isn’t sufficient.

They aren't plastic, they're paper.

The reason it helps is that very often if you drop a cup of coffee with a lid on it (e.g. when the train lurches) the lid will pop off and the coffee go everywhere. This is obviously slightly annoying if it does on the floor and will leave a stain on the carpet that the TOC will no doubt not bother to clean off (yes, you, LNR). However, if it landed on a person's lap, or on one of their electronic devices, it will potentially cause painful injury and/or financial damage, but at the very least wreck their day as they are now going wherever they were meant to be going with clothing covered in coffee.

The small bags are incredibly good at containing such a spill at least for long enough to remove it from where it's been dropped.

I have dropped one of those bags with a cup of coffee in it (albeit on the floor) and it did the containment job very well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thought. Could they not do some sort of mini buffet trolley hybrid, where it's essentially a trolley arrangement that is static, i.e. fits inside gap somewhere or behind a locked panel or something, with the attendant being next to it? Without it having to be a counter. Could still use hot flasks same as the trolley for convenience, but it's static and designed to be as such so that passengers know where it is and can walk to it? It could still be rolled on and off and stocked elsewhere

It would be possible at the expense of about 4 seats to rejig the trolley storage cupboard to work as a minibuffet trolley dock. It would require the loss of 2 bike spaces opposite to create circulation space, hence the removal of 4 seats to move the bicycles into the saloon. I do wonder if this might actually be the best plan in the short term.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see why people are in favour of scrapping it altogether. Either plan ahead and bring your own supplies or choose a Pullman dining service and treat yourself in the restaurant.

It’s strange that kitchens were specified as they have been in the 80x trains, but I don’t think the situation is going to be changing any time soon.

Or flog stuff from the restaurant. That's how most European trains used to do it, as I mentioned upthread I got a takeaway coffee on a Czech train made by the restaurant car bod using a kettle on a gas stove!

 

[Bromley boy]

That one is often quoted but it wasn't actually quite how it seems. McD's were serving coffee at pretty much boiling point as a means of keeping it fresh for longer. There is really no need to do that, as coffee is best made slightly below boiling and not left sitting there for hours. There would be a need for tea (as that should be made with boiling water), but it wasn't tea. So the effects on the victim were far, far worse than if the coffee had been served at a conventional temperature. (OK, stick milk in it and it wouldn't be as hot, but coffee is very often consumed black in America, far more so than here).

And of course the US legal system’s attitude to punitive damages is much less restrictive than the UK’s approach (the McDonald’s coffee case is one of the best examples of the US approach).

That goes along way towards explaining the “health and safety gone mad” approach there versus here, although it increasingly seems like the U.K. is going the same way.

Or flog stuff from the restaurant. That's how most European trains used to do it, as I mentioned upthread I got a takeaway coffee on a Czech train made by the restaurant car bod using a kettle on a gas stove!

Indeed.

It’s odd that better use isn’t made of the 80x kitchens. Surely, with a little imagination, they could be used to serve at seat meals/drinks for the entire train on non-Pullman dining services.

Do that and scrap the rubbish trolley service, I’d say!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s odd that better use isn’t made of the 80x kitchens. Surely, with a little imagination, they could be used to serve at seat meals/drinks for the entire train on non-Pullman dining services.

Do that and scrap the rubbish trolley service, I’d say!

Yes, I think someone said that upthread (might have been you) that they could be far more innovative in how they do it - perhaps an ordering app, but staff also coming through taking orders. The Westcountry service is quite unusual in that it's (for the UK) a very long-distance train on which almost everyone is making either the entire journey or very close to it (even the VTWC Scottish services aren't like that, though I guess ECML Edinburghs pretty much are, as is the Chieftain). Therefore there is plenty of time for such a service to be carried out properly.

The Bristols and the likes are of course a bit different and might work better with a "conventional" trolley just doing tea, coffee, canned soft drinks, water and confectionary, though most will just take their own on a short journey like that.

 

[Bromley boy]

They aren't plastic, they're paper.

As it happens I’m off on a short range WCML intercity journey tomorrow. I’m tempted to go to the buffet and order an overpriced coffee to see if I’m given a paper bag to carry it back to my seat.

I’ll report back!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As it happens I’m off on a short range WCML intercity journey tomorrow. I’m tempted to go to the buffet and order an overpriced coffee to see if I’m given a paper bag to carry it back to my seat.

I’ll report back!

Yes you will be!

The attached photo is from quite a while ago (1998) but the design of the bags has not changed.

 

[Bromley boy]

It'll be a paper bag, but yes you will be!

The attached photo is from quite a while ago (1998) but the design of the bags has not changed.

Sorry, I meant to type “paper”, now amended.

Shows how long it is since I’ve bought a coffee after boarding!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, I meant to type “paper”, now amended.

Shows how long it is since I’ve bought a coffee after boarding!

Amended mine including the quote so it doesn't look odd

 

[Bromley boy]

Amended mine including the quote so it doesn't look odd

Good work.

We should all have better things to do on a Sunday night shouldn’t we?!

What can I say, that Wimbledon final was exhausting just to watch, and the wrong man won!

That’s my excuse anyway!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good work.

We should all have better things to do on a Sunday night shouldn’t we?!

What can I say, that Wimbledon final was exhausting just to watch, and the wrong man won!

That’s my excuse anyway!

 

[Fast Track]

I agree. It would definitely be a winning ticket for the next operator, which sadly won`t be anytime soon.

With some common sense and a decent marketing plan buffet card could bring in much more revenue. Travelling Liverpool Street to Norwich a couple of years ago I ordered a gin and tonic and upon my perfectly reasonable request for ice and lemon I was told they had no lemon as they were not allowed knives to slice them as they could be used as weapons! Absolutely true and thereafter brought our own pre sliced lemon on board to around the nonsense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With some common sense and a decent marketing plan buffet card could bring in much more revenue. Travelling Liverpool Street to Norwich a couple of years ago I ordered a gin and tonic and upon my perfectly reasonable request for ice and lemon I was told they had no lemon as they were not allowed knives to slice them as they could be used as weapons! Absolutely true and thereafter brought our own pre sliced lemon on board to around the nonsense.

I think the key to it is a relatively premium offering, as people baulk at, say, 3 quid for a can of Fosters/Strongbow but will pay that for a more premium beer or cider. Tea, well, it has to be Yorkshire (and it is on LNER). Coffee, well, again people will pay more for premium espresso based coffees, or for a trolley those filter cups used by TPE and Ryanair are good. (Ryanair are quite good at getting the on board food offer right, as with effectively zero staff cost as the cabin crew have to be there anyway they can make a packet out of it).