Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

[Master29]

It is fair to say that GWR would not have been given permission to order the sets had the internal specification been any different to what the DfT had ordered.

Why should the Dft be concerned about specs of another order which wasn`t part of the original IEP project. Surely that alone would have given them every consideration for making it a separate order with different trains. The West of England is a different animal to the Bristol and South Wales lines. That`s just my take on things btw.

So, abrogating parental responsibility to a third party?

There's a clear warning on GWR's website that catering facilities could be unavailable due to operational reasons.

That`s a tad unfair don`t you think even if it is true.

 

[43096]

So, abrogating parental responsibility to a third party?

There's a clear warning on GWR's website that catering facilities could be unavailable due to operational reasons.

So, if you’re saying you shouldn’t trust GWR to provide the advertised service and should bring your own food, then following that to its logical conclusion the catering should be totally abolished as everyone should have brought their own food.

If that’s the case then maybe just abandon the train service totally and use the car instead as GWR may not run the service because of whatever operational reason is appropriate on the day.

 

[broadgage]

It seems reasonable to warn via the GWR website that catering may be unavailable for operational reasons.
I feel however that GWR could try harder to provide the advertised service. If a trolley is advertised, then it should be provided, and in each portion of the train, and for most of the journey, under all but exceptional conditions. Including weekends, and holiday periods.
To routinely fail to provide the advertised service is very poor.

 

[Clarence Yard]

But Stagecoach managed to get buffets into the East Coast fleet.

Perhaps WorstGroup should have “grown a pair” and insisted on it. Then again, WorstGroup has never been a company to give a stuff about its punters.

I believe I have heard that "grown a pair" remark before when discussing this issue, which is tending to repeat what went before on the (now closed) main 800 thread. Frankly, that remark is a bit insulting when the DfT tends to regard TOCs as their own playthings and if you step out of line, there's always someone else who can step in, especially when you are in a DA.

I think you will find that all bidders for the EC franchise proposed some kind of buffet provision for the IEP fleet on the ECML because they were allowed to do so.

There was no opportunity for such provision on the GW 800 or 802 sets which were either directly or, in the case of the 802 sets, indirectly mandated by the DfT.

Why do they do it? The DfT see themselves as the only long term guardian of the railway and of the public purse - they are fixated by seats, frequency and journey time. The IEP programme gave them the opportunity to design their own train and, with the public accounts committee on their case, they didn't want to be shown up to have procured a very expensive dud which could be improved on.

If anybody wants buffets on these trains you have to make it very uncomfortable for those MP's in now (again) marginal west country and other IET related parliamentary seats so that they get on the ministers case. It's no good writing to the TOC or the DfT or signing daft petitions which will only get ignored. Only when the minister has a whole load of angry MP's from his own party in his face will something actually happen.

 

[Darandio]

So, if you’re saying you shouldn’t trust GWR to provide the advertised service and should bring your own food, then following that to its logical conclusion the catering should be totally abolished as everyone should have brought their own food.

If that’s the case then maybe just abandon the train service totally and use the car instead as GWR may not run the service because of whatever operational reason is appropriate on the day.

No, if you are travelling with children then have a contingency plan, especially when expecting to travel so long. If it were us we would have drinks and snacks as a minimum, just to make sure there was something for them to eat should things go wrong. As a parent of three it's a pretty normal plan for us to have.

Things can go wrong at any time when travelling such a long distance with kids, leaving it in the hands of others is never a good idea.

 

[diffident]

If anybody wants buffets on these trains you have to make it very uncomfortable for those MP's in now (again) marginal west country and other IET related parliamentary seats so that they get on the ministers case. It's no good writing to the TOC or the DfT or signing daft petitions which will only get ignored. Only when the minister has a whole load of angry MP's from his own party in his face will something actually happen.

This is probably the best description of British Politics in action that I have read in a very very long time!!!

 

[Fast Track]

I hope everyone shares this petition to a much wider audience facebook word of mouth etc.

 

[Ianno87]

No, if you are travelling with children then have a contingency plan, especially when expecting to travel so long. If it were us we would have drinks and snacks as a minimum, just to make sure there was something for them to eat should things go wrong. As a parent of three it's a pretty normal plan for us to have.

Things can go wrong at any time when travelling such a long distance with kids, leaving it in the hands of others is never a good idea.

Kids become hungry and agitated very unpredictably. Relying on a trolley is, to put it mildly, naïve.

I'd never take my kids on any trains journey of more than about 15 minutes or so without *something* (even if a couple of bags of Quavers or something). For longer journeys I then may as well just take lunch on board (default for anything longer than an hour or so)...which means I'm not using the trolley (unless I impulsed bought a coffee if it happened to come round).

Therein lies the problem.

 

[Master29]

Why do they do it? The DfT see themselves as the only long term guardian of the railway and of the public purse - they are fixated by seats, frequency and journey time. The IEP programme gave them the opportunity to design their own train and, with the public accounts committee on their case, they didn't want to be shown up to have procured a very expensive dud which could be improved on.

If anybody wants buffets on these trains you have to make it very uncomfortable for those MP's in now (again) marginal west country and other IET related parliamentary seats so that they get on the ministers case. It's no good writing to the TOC or the DfT or signing daft petitions which will only get ignored. Only when the minister has a whole load of angry MP's from his own party in his face will something actually happen.

A very insightful post as always CY. There`s a kind of Yes Minister logic about this which sums up why the project ended up the way it did. Whilst I do not agree with the Dft here you`ve illustrated their mindset very well. This is no personal reflection on your good self of course, just gives an understanding of how the government of this country work. After all, even under BR the west was always treated shabbily. I often think of the 8 mile stretch (now duelled) between St Austell and Truro being made single line in the mid 80`s I believe, only to be duelled again less than 20 years later

 

[fgwrich]

It seems reasonable to warn via the GWR website that catering may be unavailable for operational reasons.
I feel however that GWR could try harder to provide the advertised service. If a trolley is advertised, then it should be provided, and in each portion of the train, and for most of the journey, under all but exceptional conditions. Including weekends, and holiday periods.
To routinely fail to provide the advertised service is very poor.

One of the best warnings I've witnessed recently was on a Saturday a few weeks ago at Reading. The XX:XX GWR Service to Paignton. We are sorry to announce that there will be no catering available between London Paddington and Newton Abbot. But don't worry, you can have a trolley for the last 10-15 minutes of your journey. Thankfully It was a 9 car set at least.

 

[Carlisle]

After all, even under BR the west was always treated shabbily. I often think of the 8 mile stretch (now duelled) between St Austell and Truro being made single line in the mid 80`s

Singling of lines happened all over the UK during that period in an attempt to reduce costs & avoid closures, im not aware the west suffered significantly more than other regions as they even planned to single part of the GEML too

 

[Bletchleyite]

Kids become hungry and agitated very unpredictably. Relying on a trolley is, to put it mildly, naïve.

I'd never take my kids on any trains journey of more than about 15 minutes or so without *something* (even if a couple of bags of Quavers or something). For longer journeys I then may as well just take lunch on board (default for anything longer than an hour or so)...which means I'm not using the trolley (unless I impulsed bought a coffee if it happened to come round).

Therein lies the problem.

It's not like that with hot drinks, though. I had water with me on the example upthread, but I wanted a cup of tea (I'd already finished the one I bought before boarding). So I'd still have bought one, or probably three. If I'd been leaving from home I could have made a flask, but I wasn't.

 

[Bishopstone]

Are GWR taking more money from the trolley than they did from buffet catering, on a weekly rolling aggregate basis?

(Sorry if the answer has already been established via this or prior long-running threads)

 

[broadgage]

Are GWR taking more money from the trolley than they did from buffet catering, on a weekly rolling aggregate basis?

(Sorry if the answer has already been established via this or prior long-running threads)

I doubt it if considering the number of trolleys that are absent, static, hiding in first, or in the other portion of a 5+5 train.
I am not aware however of any published figures.

 

[irish_rail]

Are GWR taking more money from the trolley than they did from buffet catering, on a weekly rolling aggregate basis?

(Sorry if the answer has already been established via this or prior long-running threads)

Apparently takings are very very down but I have no figures to back that up admittedly, just going on what I've been told.

 

[FGW_DID]

The last Managers briefing I saw, revenue from catering is up! It didn't have any breakdown, just that it was up.

.............or in the other portion of a 5+5 train.

I've noticed you've posted this a few times, that only one trolley is provided, not true! There is a trolley in each 5 car unit. The trolleys actually belong to Hitachi and are part of the trains outfitting as such.
Why do you think there are Customer Hosts for both 5 cars in a 10 car consist?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've noticed you've posted this a few times, that only one trolley is provided, not true!

It is true in many cases due to GWR failing to have adequate staff.

 

[Mountain Man]

So sad travelling today from Paddington to Plymouth (a journey that I have doing for over 20 years) to discover the demise of the onboard buffet service and do discover that the dining car has vanished! The service used to be outstanding! Nice new trains but getting a bottle of water was a mammoth effort and we had a carriage missing. These trains are always full so why has this essential service been scrapped?

It isnt essential. You could have bought a bottle of water before you boarded. It's London, they have shops

 

[broadgage]

The last Managers briefing I saw, revenue from catering is up! It didn't have any breakdown, just that it was up.



I've noticed you've posted this a few times, that only one trolley is provided, not true! There is a trolley in each 5 car unit. The trolleys actually belong to Hitachi and are part of the trains outfitting as such.
Why do you think there are Customer Hosts for both 5 cars in a 10 car consist?

I have seen it several times.
Or perhaps to be pedantically accurate, there might be a trolley in each portion, but without any stock or anyone to sell the stock.
I will try to remember in future to refer to "only one trolley available for service to customers" rather to "only one trolley" This will allow for those who maintain that there are two, but ignore the fact that only one is available.

 

[Bishopstone]

It would be embarrassing if, after 19 pages here and dozens of pages on other threads, it was established GWR were now selling *more* drinks and snacks than in the buffet era.

But all we have to go on is anecdote, it seems.

Obviously I concede the opposite: if takings have fallen, that represents a commercial and customer service failure.

 

[Ianno87]

It would be embarrassing if, after 19 pages here and dozens of pages on other threads, it was established GWR were now selling *more* drinks and snacks than in the buffet era.

.

My couple of recent trips (yes, a sample of two) at 'leisure' times, the trolley was certainly doing a roaring trade and took some time to get through the carriage.

Meanwhile at the old buffet cars, a queue of even three people would be fairly rare.

 

[HowardGWR]

We seem to have several debates going on here:
Is a trolley an adequate service instead of a buffet?
Why does not GWR provide a reliable trolley service?
Why should a privatised firm not choose what it wants to provide?

Addressing the last two, it seems that the franchising system could sort that out, as the DfT could specify what level of service and with what reliability and I had assumed that it had done. It's no good blaming GWR in that case, except if they fail to meet franchise commitments.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I was on a Pendalino to Euston with Virgin yesterday, and the shop was open, but they also came down with a trolley. The reality maybe that trolleys do more business, otherwise why bother when you have a shop?

 

[pt_mad]

We seem to have several debates going on here:
Is a trolley an adequate service instead of a buffet?
Why does not GWR provide a reliable trolley service?
Why should a privatised firm not choose what it wants to provide?

Addressing the last two, it seems that the franchising system could sort that out, as the DfT could specify what level of service and with what reliability and I had assumed that it had done. It's no good blaming GWR in that case, except if they fail to meet franchise commitments.

It does seem questionable why ScotRail considered it necessary to plan to run a buffet and trolley on a short HST service between Edinburgh or Glasgow and Aberdeen, and yet the Western Franchise has a setup where a trolley is considered to be adequate. How can both be right?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was on a Pendalino to Euston with Virgin yesterday, and the shop was open, but they also came down with a trolley. The reality maybe that trolleys do more business, otherwise why bother when you have a shop?

I suspect trolleys do do more business provided they are there reliably.

 

[RLBH]

It does seem questionable why ScotRail considered it necessary to plan to run a buffet and trolley on a short HST service between Edinburgh or Glasgow and Aberdeen, and yet the Western Franchise has a setup where a trolley is considered to be adequate. How can both be right?

Transport Scotland required that ScotRail have a buffet. The Department for Transport required that GWR do not have a buffet. The two authorities have very different views on what a railway needs to be, and have specified services accordingly.

 

[irish_rail]

Whilst the trolley will probably lead to more impulse purchases such as coffee and tea that would not otherwise be made, those travelling on longer trips would rather have a buffet , so that they can rely when they will be able to eat as well as a broader range of products. Frankly the trolleys are probably fine on the oxford and bristols but on the Penzances , people need to know that they can definitely get hot food and at a time of their choosing, not at the whim of when the trolley decides to show up.

 

[pt_mad]

Transport Scotland required that ScotRail have a buffet. The Department for Transport required that GWR do not have a buffet. The two authorities have very different views on what a railway needs to be, and have specified services accordingly.

The point still stands how can both be right?

 

[pt_mad]

Perhaps some sort of automated vending arrangement as well as the trolley could have been a compromise?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps some sort of automated vending arrangement as well as the trolley could have been a compromise?

Just staffing the trolley properly so there is always one there would be a start. And designing the trolleys to be a bit narrower so they are easy to get down the train. I've not noticed a massive issue with luggage everywhere on 80x, as the overheads are massive.

Another possible improvement is for them to use the PA regularly to announce where they are and give you an idea of when they're likely to get to you. SBB use an autoannouncement for this.