Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

[mmh]

Yes, why do some people insist that every element of a service provision should make a profit? It's really rather naive.

DB are currently turning the bistro in their ICE3s into a full restaurant. They have stated that catering makes a loss but regard it as an essential part of the overall Inter-City package. Get rid of the catering and that's one less advantage you have over your competitors.

The train's competitor is the car, which doesn't have catering either.

 

[stj]

Maybe it should be given to someone like Costa or others who operate mass catering.

 

[HowardGWR]

Yes, why do some people insist that every element of a service provision should make a profit? It's really rather naive.

DB are currently turning the bistro in their ICE3s into a full restaurant. They have stated that catering makes a loss but regard it as an essential part of the overall Inter-City package. Get rid of the catering and that's one less advantage you have over your competitors.

Yes, but if GWR thought the same, they would provide such. They don't, it would appear, except for a few pullman services. It's privatised so writing to MPs can't achieve anything, unless colleagues think that the general taxpayer should subsidise restaurant cars. I am sure that, if the taxpayer would do that, GWR would be only too happy to provide the service. I would not like to be an MP proposing that, when 95% of my constituents never go near a train. I think there is a case to make that, on journeys of longer than two hours, trolley provision should be mandatory, with "delay repay" percentage of say 10% mandatory, when there's no provision, due to force majeure.

 

[ashkeba]

Trolley provision must be less profitable because it requires space for a static trolley service (roughly what a mini-buffet could fit in), space for stock, the expensive trolleys with all the safety messures for operating among passengers, plus then the kitchens are left unused. If that results in smaller losses than a mini-buffet, there is probably accounting tricks like not paying for the static trolley dock and stock cupboards.

 

[cactustwirly]

Trolley provision must be less profitable because it requires space for a static trolley service (roughly what a mini-buffet could fit in), space for stock, the expensive trolleys with all the safety messures for operating among passengers, plus then the kitchens are left unused. If that results in smaller losses than a mini-buffet, there is probably accounting tricks like not paying for the static trolley dock and stock cupboards.

Or that is all off set, by being able to reach more passengers than a buffet?

 

[mmh]

Trolley provision must be less profitable because it requires space for a static trolley service (roughly what a mini-buffet could fit in), space for stock, the expensive trolleys with all the safety messures for operating among passengers, plus then the kitchens are left unused. If that results in smaller losses than a mini-buffet, there is probably accounting tricks like not paying for the static trolley dock and stock cupboards.

I don't understand how the space for stock is any different depending on where you sell it from. It'll all still be stored in a store room somewhere.

A pendolino or voyager shop has to be stocked up and emptied. Anyone who's seen this happen at Euston will know it looks far less efficient than at locations where a pre-stocked trolley is simply wheeled aboard.

If there was genuinely such a huge demand for more than tea/coffee/beer cans and a handful of snacks there'd be constant queues on trains with buffets. There aren't.

 

[Clarence Yard]

There are no accounting tricks. All the on train equipment is a sunk cost which you pay for in the daily set availability payment. Whether you use any catering equipment or not, that payment doesn’t vary.

So effectively you have a balance between sales and cost of staff and goods, including wastage, together with the cost of any shore bases.

I’m not going to get into the precise figures but I will repeat, a trolley moving down a train usually results in an increase in sales, when compared to having a static buffet. Punters these days seem to be increasingly reluctant to leave their seats.

 

[jimm]

Yes, why do some people insist that every element of a service provision should make a profit? It's really rather naive.

DB are currently turning the bistro in their ICE3s into a full restaurant. They have stated that catering makes a loss but regard it as an essential part of the overall Inter-City package. Get rid of the catering and that's one less advantage you have over your competitors.

Businesses - whatever their ownership status - have to make policy decisions about how they choose to spend their money and control costs.

If DB had shareholders who take a close interest in the bottom line to deal with all the time - which is the case for First Group, as opposed to having to answer to the German government - then it would probably be facing a lot of questions at its annual meeting and regular key shareholder briefings as to what it was going to do to stem/eradicate losses, wherever they occur in the business.

DB currently has a debt of about 20 billion euros of debt but was bunged a billion euros to help with losses by the government back in September, on top of a pledge of 50bn euros to fund a 10-year modernisation programme back in March - so it is operating on a different planet from your average British TOC when it comes to financial support for all aspects of its business.

PS: If you have visions of these extra 'restaurant' cars serving food cooked on board by a chef like a GWR Pullman, then please forget it. Bordrestaurant is airline-style modular pre-prepared food straight from the microwave, the same as has always been the case in the ICE3 bistros.

Trolley provision must be less profitable because it requires space for a static trolley service (roughly what a mini-buffet could fit in), space for stock, the expensive trolleys with all the safety messures for operating among passengers, plus then the kitchens are left unused. If that results in smaller losses than a mini-buffet, there is probably accounting tricks like not paying for the static trolley dock and stock cupboards.

The trolley station cum hot water boiler area in the middle of nine-car GWT IETs is the size of a toilet - as it is the same space used for toilets in other coaches, and ever so slightly smaller than the two full window bays and former toilet occupied by GWR's HST mini-buffets. The IET kitchens are supplying the first class at seat offer and also hold extra stock for the standard trolley.

 

[mmh]

There are no accounting tricks. All the on train equipment is a sunk cost which you pay for in the daily set availability payment. Whether you use any catering equipment or not, that payment doesn’t vary.

So effectively you have a balance between sales and cost of staff and goods, including wastage, together with the cost of any shore bases.

I’m not going to get into the precise figures but I will repeat, a trolley moving down a train usually results in an increase in sales, when compared to having a static buffet. Punters these days seem to be increasingly reluctant to leave their seats.

I'm not someone scared of leaving their seat (although I prefer not to while the train's going to be stopping at a station), but a trolley encourages me to buy from it. For example, Llandudno to Chester, a journey of about an hour often has a trolley. More often than not, I'll buy a cup of tea from it. If there was a buffet at the end of the train I'd just not bother.

 

[class26]

The train's competitor is the car, which doesn't have catering either.

......................or the plane which does

 

[ashkeba]

I don't understand how the space for stock is any different depending on where you sell it from. It'll all still be stored in a store room somewhere.

But is the cost of that storage attributed to the trolley like people here make the buffet responsible for the cost of its space?

A pendolino or voyager shop has to be stocked up and emptied. Anyone who's seen this happen at Euston will know it looks far less efficient than at locations where a pre-stocked trolley is simply wheeled aboard.

It probably is less efficient than wheeling a trolley aboard, but that is not comparing alternatives: that "pre-stocked" trolley has to be stocked up and emptied somewhere too!

I don't remember seeing the pendolino shops being stocked but I have seen the voyager shop and HST buffets being reloaded. I do not understood why they did not have some sort of easy-loading tray system. Then pre-stocked trays could be wheeled aboard (on a much cheaper folding trolley because it will not be moving among passengers all day), slotted into the shop shelves and the fronts opened. It may even be possible for the suppliers to deliver in the trays and avoid the cost of loading from supply entirely! But I think this is more thought than most TOCs give to their catering.

If there was genuinely such a huge demand for more than tea/coffee/beer cans and a handful of snacks there'd be constant queues on trains with buffets. There aren't.

I queued at GWR buffets much more often than I did not - but that itself probably does not indicate huge demand for more than drinks and snacks. However, that beats GWR IET trolleys for me because I have yet to see one, moving or static!

 

[ashkeba]

There are no accounting tricks. All the on train equipment is a sunk cost which you pay for in the daily set availability payment. Whether you use any catering equipment or not, that payment doesn’t vary.

So effectively you have a balance between sales and cost of staff and goods, including wastage, together with the cost of any shore bases.

So that makes it seem like the lowest cost way would be to use the kitchens more because you are paying for it whether used or not. Do the 10 Pullman trips generate enough to pay the cost of the kitchens? Including times with no service like 20 Dec - 6 Jan?

I’m not going to get into the precise figures but I will repeat, a trolley moving down a train usually results in an increase in sales, when compared to having a static buffet. Punters these days seem to be increasingly reluctant to leave their seats.

Using your insight, broadly, without precise figures, how do sales from a static trolley compare to the old buffets? Do services with a missing trolley still contribute to the cost of that trolley? And is there a forecast for how sales of items delivered from the kitchen would compare?

 

[mmh]

......................or the plane which does

The plane is an alternative to a tiny number of train journeys, of which effectively zero will be on GWR. Are there any domestic flights left with complementary food / drink?

 

[ashkeba]

Are there any domestic flights left with complementary food / drink?

I don't know but why require complementary?

 

[mmh]

So that makes it seem like the lowest cost way would be to use the kitchens more because you are paying for it whether used or not. Do the 10 Pullman trips generate enough to pay the cost of the kitchens?

No, it means the kitchen being there is effectively no cost. It's already been built, it's there. Doing anything with it has a cost, which you may or may not be able to make a return on.

A poor analogy is a two floor shop where only one floor is in use. Using the unused floor has a cost of stocking and staffing it, which might be more than any additional sales it raises generates. It existing is already paid for, used or not.

 

[pt_mad]

The reason you can’t put a kitchen in the middle of trains nowadays is because you can’t provide an aisle wide enough past it to meet accessibility regs. If you narrow the kitchen too much you can’t then meet H&S regs for safe working areas around cooking equipment. That’s why every new train since privatisation that’s had a full kitchen installed (390, 222 and IETs by my count) has put it at the end of a driving vehicle. Then it doesn’t need to be a pass through area. Without significant changes to either H&S law or Accessibility law you’re not having a full kitchen, as required to prepare restaurant service food between 1st and Standard accommodation within UK loading gauge. End of.

I realise the LNER Azuma Cafe Bar probably wouldn't be considered a kitchen, but there's an oven in it though isn't there? And there's still the infamous coridoor type thing around the side by the looks of it?


Not my image.

 

[Clarence Yard]

So that makes it seem like the lowest cost way would be to use the kitchens more because you are paying for it whether used or not. Do the 10 Pullman trips generate enough to pay the cost of the kitchens? Including times with no service like 20 Dec - 6 Jan?


Using your insight, broadly, without precise figures, how do sales from a static trolley compare to the old buffets? Do services with a missing trolley still contribute to the cost of that trolley? And is there a forecast for how sales of items delivered from the kitchen would compare?

The cost of the kitchens (and Hitachi trolleys) is a sunk cost and an indivisible part of the daily unit payment so my previous comments on costings apply. Personally I would use the kitchens more and up the service offer but then I would price my tickets (especially first class) accordingly.

Static trolleys tend to get worse sales than a proper buffet but, these days, a proper trolley operation beats them hands down for takings. What you have to achieve is a frequent pass through and a very consistent service offer to the punters.

For me, the next step in on train catering is an at seat app that orders your goods and they are then delivered to seat. That would supplement the trolley operation, not replace it entirely.

 

[pt_mad]

For me, the next step in on train catering is an at seat app that orders your goods and they are then delivered to seat. That would supplement the trolley operation, not replace it entirely.

Trouble with that though is it could lead to more problems than it solves if a train is standing room only, or there is lots of luggage preventing safe delivery of orders without hopping over things etc.
Would an app have to deny ordering if a train were full and standing (preventing the catering staff carrying orders to seats safely)? If not and the app took money regardless, but the logistics of delivery were a problem, then it could be a pretty awkward scenario?

 

[ashkeba]

Would an app have to deny ordering if a train were full and standing (preventing the catering staff carrying orders to seats safely)? If not and the app took money regardless, but the logistics of delivery were a problem, then it could be a pretty awkward scenario?

It can be done in many ways all with good and bad features but I don't think either taking payment on delivery or cancelling a few card transactions is an insurmountable problem with the idea.

 

[pt_mad]

It can be done in many ways all with good and bad features but I don't think either taking payment on delivery or cancelling a few card transactions is an insurmountable problem with the idea.

True, payment on delivery could be a way around it. Although the goods themselves and the card machine would have to be carried to the seat I guess. And one delivery at a time, unless a trolley were used and then it's back to a trolley again?

Then you might need a way of preventing say people getting on at Swindon from ordering hot food or even drinks if orders are backing up, if they were planning on alighting at Didcot for example?

It might end up rather hit and miss in the way a trolley is, as in, app ordering only available if train is not standing room in vestibules or orders aren't backing up for short journeys? In the same way a trolley currently isn't guaranteed.

Whereas a micro buffet LNER style at least is there and staffed and available for customers to choose to go to and still can if they choose they are prepared to squeeze past folks.

 

[Llanigraham]

Trolley provision must be less profitable because it requires space for a static trolley service (roughly what a mini-buffet could fit in), space for stock, the expensive trolleys with all the safety messures for operating among passengers, plus then the kitchens are left unused. If that results in smaller losses than a mini-buffet, there is probably accounting tricks like not paying for the static trolley dock and stock cupboards.

On the units around here there is no "stock room" on board. The trolley is loaded at the start depot until it gets to it's next dept where it is restocked. If anything runs out on the way then hard luck.

The trip with a trolley that did amaze me was in a single car unit on the Heart of Wales, and the lady was doing a roaring trade in drinks and chocolates.

 

[Mountain Man]

It is part of your service offer to the punter, or should be.

Why? Plenty of people don't want / need it. Why should they pay for a service they don't want?

 

[Goldfish62]

Why? Plenty of people don't want / need it. Why should they pay for a service they don't want?

Where do you draw the line with that sort of argument?

 

[Master29]

Why? Plenty of people don't want / need it. Why should they pay for a service they don't want?

Why make it a blanket argument? You don't agree with buffets, fine. Your choice but why should it be a no no because you wish it. If they don't pay for stuff they don't contribute toward it. Surely.

The IET kitchens are supplying the first class at seat offer and also hold extra stock for the standard trolley.

Really. It takes a massive kitchen to support the meagre first class offerings from GWR. Just plain crazy.

 

[sheff1]

The plane is an alternative to a tiny number of train journeys, of which effectively zero will be on GWR. Are there any domestic flights left with complementary food / drink?

If you mean complimentary, what is the relevance ? I don't see anyone suggesting that food/drink from the GWR buffet (or trolley) should be offered free of charge.

 

[PartyOperator]

It can be done in many ways all with good and bad features but I don't think either taking payment on delivery or cancelling a few card transactions is an insurmountable problem with the idea.

On some Chinese high-speed trains, you can use an app to order food to your seat from restaurants near stations along the route. Penzance to London is a longer journey than Beijing to Shanghai (in time, obviously not distance) so who knows... It might work? Ordering food from the train itself should be a much easier problem to solve.

 

[irish_rail]

The cost of the kitchens (and Hitachi trolleys) is a sunk cost and an indivisible part of the daily unit payment so my previous comments on costings apply. Personally I would use the kitchens more and up the service offer but then I would price my tickets (especially first class) accordingly.

Static trolleys tend to get worse sales than a proper buffet but, these days, a proper trolley operation beats them hands down for takings. What you have to achieve is a frequent pass through and a very consistent service offer to the punters.

For me, the next step in on train catering is an at seat app that orders your goods and they are then delivered to seat. That would supplement the trolley operation, not replace it entirely.

I agree that an app would prove popular for catering tho I fear a little too popular, and first class passengers might get a bit fed up of a constant stream of hosts going to and from the kitchen. The beauty of the old HST layout was the kitchen and buffet separated the first class area so it didn't become a busy corridor.

 

[Adsy125]

I agree that an app would prove popular for catering tho I fear a little too popular, and first class passengers might get a bit fed up of a constant stream of hosts going to and from the kitchen. The beauty of the old HST layout was the kitchen and buffet separated the first class area so it didn't become a busy corridor.

As has been mentioned before, that isn’t possible in a new train so isn’t coming back. What else would you suggest?

 

[irish_rail]

As has been mentioned before, that isn’t possible in a new train so isn’t coming back. What else would you suggest?

Where is buffet located on the east coast sets? There i suppose.

 

[Adsy125]

Where is buffet located on the east coast sets? There i suppose.

But there isn’t a kitchen.