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Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

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irish_rail

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The nine-car 800s are perfectly capable of operating Cotswold Line diagrams and do it all the time right now - 802s are very much the exception under current arrangements and we have yet to see how things will eventually shape up under diagrams for the new timetable.

That some of the nine-car 802s were ordered for peak Cotswold workings was because, as Clarence Yard has explained previously, GWR had identified a shortfall in the size of the 800 fleet and managed to persuade the DfT that it needed more stock to fill that gap, alongside providing the new trains for West Country services.



Except what? You were the one complaining about the journey times comparisons with France. There are trains there with similar or longer journey times than London-Cornwall with zero catering, never mind a trolley or Pullman restaurant.

GWR is currently offering advances on a series of departures from Paddington to Penzance and in the other direction on Saturdays July 13, 20 and 27 for all of £25. Hardly a premium fare in my book. I doubt FlyBe will be undercutting that price to Newquay.

If GWR was proposing a Ouigo type service to Penzance, you might have something to complain about. Though by the sound of it, First Group's East Coast open-access services will certainly draw some ideas from Ouigo, such as not having first class.



I've already said that it looks like a nailed-on certainty that the first out and back London-Hereford off-peak working on weekdays will be a five-car from the timetable change anyway. The second one will most likely remain a nine-car, due to the times it calls at Oxford, Reading and Slough on the way back into London - ie in the afternoon peak.

No one is going to start building in performance risks at that time of day by adopting a method of working at Oxford that has performance risk written all over it.
Yet again jimm you think it is acceptable to introduce performance risk at Plymouth and delay trains running to and from the west with splitting and joining but not at your precious oxford. I have DRIVEN through oxford numerous times and split and joined turbos there , I know what I'm talking about it was an easy efficient operation splitting off one unit and quickly moving it straight out to the sidings and vice versa. Moves to and from laira depot are way more complicated and when the train becomes delayed and presents late at reading there is a knock on effect to all services.
And there have already been lots of delays splitti g and joining at Plymouth and that's before the splits and joins have really got started and with dedicated fitters to assist each service . Heaven knows what it will be like when it's most services doing it
 
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jimm

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If you want to go on about what used to happen, that's up to you, but maybe you should come and spend a day at Oxford now.

Splitting and joining of Turbos at Oxford, ie crashing them together at low speed when coupling, without lots of technology that needs to talk between sets like IETs, has been limited since 2004, when 180s took over lots of Cotswold Line duties and the Stratford-upon-Avon service ended, and even more so since the December 2006 timetable change, to the point where it has almost been eliminated now, with the December timetable probably putting paid to it for good.

The overall number of trains - passenger and freight - through the Oxford area has increased steadily since over the past 20 years, while the number of through platforms has remained exactly the same - two. And the volume of traffic through Plymouth, with all its through platforms, in no way, shape or form, remotely resembles what is passing through the Oxford area - or shunting around the station and sidings.

Plenty of the existing Cornish services have extended dwell times at Plymouth anyway - another of the many things you gloss over in your posts, unlike at Oxford, where the priority is to get trains in, out and on their way as fast as possible, as something else is usually breathing down their neck in both directions. Looking back at Monday-Thursday last week on realtimetrains, apart from the one or two services with a long dwell and late departure from Plymouth which may have been recalcitrant IETs, every other service that left late, in both directions, had arrived late at Plymouth due to a delay somewhere else, so clearly nothing to do with coupling or uncoupling.

Maybe it was just a good week, or maybe things aren't half as bad as you keep trying to make out - with zero detail provided by you as to how often 'lots' actually amounts to.

And any delay to a service operating heading into the Thames Valley at 17.31 (which is when the 15.14 from Hereford leaves for London) is going to cause a whole lot more grief to a whole lot more services than an issue at Plymouth.

The redoubling of parts of the Cotswold Line in 2009-11 was not motivated by any great desire to increase capacity, or run more passenger services on the line. Network Rail justified it on the basis that it would improve punctuality of trains arriving at Oxford from Worcester, increasing the odds of them reaching Didcot East right time and then running in the booked path to London, thus reducing the risk of Cotswold services wrecking the timetable into London. And back out as a result of late arrivals at Paddington. Which did indeed happen 'a lot' and was why £67m was spent addressing the issue.
 

w1bbl3

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Just out of curiosity what is to stop the trolley being operated statically from it's base?
 

irish_rail

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Ok I don't have statistics on delay but every single Plymouth driver I speak to has had occurrences where they have had troubles splitting and or joining in service. And this is with the luxury of fitters assisting every coupling which cannot go on forever.
And yes long dwell times have been introduced at Plymouth, slowing down journeys to the west, not quite sure why this route is deemed acceptable for this when all other routes are looking to squeeze every minute to get fastest possible end to end journeys. But yet again the south west is the poor relation.
 

dk1

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Just out of curiosity what is to stop the trolley being operated statically from it's base?
Nothing. In the rare occasions GA put a trolley on a 170 it operates as a static buffet. Catering staff are instructed not to pass through the vestibule area as is a H&S risk with their type of trolley.
 

swt_passenger

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Ok I don't have statistics on delay but every single Plymouth driver I speak to has had occurrences where they have had troubles splitting and or joining in service. And this is with the luxury of fitters assisting every coupling which cannot go on forever.
And yes long dwell times have been introduced at Plymouth, slowing down journeys to the west, not quite sure why this route is deemed acceptable for this when all other routes are looking to squeeze every minute to get fastest possible end to end journeys. But yet again the south west is the poor relation.
What’s this got to do with buffets? All you seem to have achieved is to create another general discussion thread about 800s. Maybe that was your intention.
 

JonathanH

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What’s this got to do with buffets? All you seem to have achieved is to create another general discussion thread about 800s. Maybe that was your intention.

The two are intrinsicly linked - the loss of seats means that having buffet counters in 5-car 802s is less likely than in a 9-car 802, not that that is likely either. It appears that 'irish_rail' is expressing views that only 9-car 802s should be used on Devon and Cornwall services even though we know that won't happen.

For the record, information posted elsewhere suggests that today's departures from Paddington to the West Country are formed as follows:

0730PNZ 9-800
0803EXD 9-802
0903PLY 10-800
1003PNZ 9-802
1103PLY HST
1203PNZ 10-802
1303PNZ 10-802
1403PNZ HST
1503PNZ 9-802
1603PLY 10-802
1630PGN 9-802
1703PNZ HST
1803PNZ HST
1903PLY HST
2003PLY 10-802
2030EXD 9-800

None of the down trains split at Plymouth today although I guess the debate is about what happens in May and then December.
 
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Wow what a change from up to the 70's (pre HST) Kitchen car, Restaurant car, Buffet car, as well as first & second class cars added to all Penzance trains at Plymouth! No problem coupling/ uncoupling them, maybe very slight jolt on coupling sometimes!
HST - First Gwr later made proper meals for first class only.
Imo it is too long a journey without a meal being available.
Should be at least a 9 car train with some form of catering for all.
 

hexagon789

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Wow what a change from up to the 70's (pre HST) Kitchen car, Restaurant car, Buffet car, as well as first & second class cars added to all Penzance trains at Plymouth! No problem coupling/ uncoupling them, maybe very slight jolt on coupling sometimes!
HST - First Gwr later made proper meals for first class only.
Imo it is too long a journey without a meal being available.
Should be at least a 9 car train with some form of catering for all.

This sort of reduction in catering is common across Europe, indeed the UK has better catering provision than many countries.
 

JonathanH

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Imo it is too long a journey without a meal being available.
Should be at least a 9 car train with some form of catering for all.

A meal? How many people buy more than a cup of coffee or tea and a snack aboard the train? Given the 800 / 802 have a kitchen at one end if demand was there for a meal it could be offered, just needing someone to deliver it to the passenger?

They have been using 7- or 8-car trains for the last 40 years. The plan doesn't appear to involve 5-car trains east of Plymouth and from what we have been told on here by informed sources means very much more capacity in Cornwall than is currently on offer.
 

VT 390

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A meal? How many people buy more than a cup of coffee or tea and a snack aboard the train? Given the 800 / 802 have a kitchen at one end if demand was there for a meal it could be offered, just needing someone to deliver it to the passenger?

They have been using 7- or 8-car trains for the last 40 years. The plan doesn't appear to involve 5-car trains east of Plymouth and from what we have been told on here by informed sources means very much more capacity in Cornwall than is currently on offer.

They do offer meals on selected services with the Pullman dining, could this be offered on more services?
 

JonathanH

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They do offer meals on selected services with the Pullman dining, could this be offered on more services?

Yes, of course, but it is a bit of a niche offering relative to the number of people travelling.
 

Ianno87

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They do offer meals on selected services with the Pullman dining, could this be offered on more services?

As it is now the 21st century...dare I suggest some sort of App to deliver to your seat?
 

4141

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As it is now the 21st century...dare I suggest some sort of App to deliver to your seat?
Sorry, I just had this mental picture - an update of one of those old "pacing the train" paintings, but with a spotty youth on a motor bike with a Deliveroo box, trying to keep up with an IET...:)
 

cactustwirly

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Or how about we stick to comparisons in this country shall we?
Buffets on, Kgx to Newark, London to Norwich, Kgx to Leeds, St Pancras to Nottingham, Euston to Birmingham, Aberdeen to Inverness to name just a very few examples.
And you give examples of 2 to 3 hour trips in France well journeys of 3 to 5 hours are a better comparison and London to Penzance is more intercity than inter urban..

There's no buffet on St Pancras to Nottingham/Sheffield on weekdays
 

Sleepy

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The anger that will surface once people realise LNER have the same new stock that do carry a buffet will only increase during the year. Even Greater Anglia will still have buffet on new stock for much shorter journey length . Well done DfT another needless own goal !
 

PHILIPE

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GWR provide a trolley service in the Cardiff to Portsmouth route but this finishes at lunchtime on a Saturday until Monday morning. I'm not sure if it still is but it was outsourced to Rail Gourmet.
 

EssexGonzo

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Must confess never seen the attraction in buffets myself. Sky high prices for mediocre food. Always bring my own snacks whether it is 2½ hours on the train or 4-5 hours on the coach. I can survive without a hot drink for a few hours. I refuse to pay £2 for a teabag swimming in boiling water in a disposable cup.

Completely agree. I always come armed having stocked up at the nearest "supermarket" express or Pret. The onboard coffee is generally brown water and consuming pre-purchased alcohol is generally far cheaper than that purchased onboard.

If I'm in 1st - its not for the food or drink, its all about the space and tranquility. I really don't get how lathered up people get about 1st class catering. It's generally not worth the ticket. The space, however, is always worth the ticket.
 

irish_rail

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Completely agree. I always come armed having stocked up at the nearest "supermarket" express or Pret. The onboard coffee is generally brown water and consuming pre-purchased alcohol is generally far cheaper than that purchased onboard.

If I'm in 1st - its not for the food or drink, its all about the space and tranquility. I really don't get how lathered up people get about 1st class catering. It's generally not worth the ticket. The space, however, is always worth the ticket.
One quirk of the London to Penzance route is that other than Paddington and reading the retail offerings at all stations on the route is extremely poor for buying food, especially at some of the smaller stations but even at the likes of Plymouth and Exeter. Another reason why decent catering should be considered on these services...
 

Malcolmffc

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The buffet is dead.

M&S offers better value, better quality food.

Plus, the TOC's need to be able to make bold claims about providing more seats. Without expensively extending platforms, maximising usable onboard space is essential to that.

This. Buffets are no longer required because the choice of sandwiches/ snack food in and around stations is much more plentiful than it was 20-30 years ago.
 

theironroad

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Been a feature since at least 1988, and they always seemed more well used on the shuttle than on longer-distance workings such as an Aberdeen or Inverness bizarrely.
Interesting. Maybe there's some psychological effect. I guess if you're on a long distance service and not sure if refreshments will be available, then you stock up and then don't need trolley. On the shuttles, a coffee would be nice but not essential as will be at destination soon....
 

Mag_seven

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This. Buffets are no longer required because the choice of sandwiches/ snack food in and around stations is much more plentiful than it was 20-30 years ago.

Except if you travel on the ECML it seems - passengers on that line will still be afforded that luxury.

What about if you are changing trains onto a GWR Class 800 and don't have time to visit M&S "Simply Food" or whatever. I was glad of a buffet facility on a Portuguese service the other day when on a long journey I changed trains on a tight connection with no time to buy food at the connecting station.
 

hexagon789

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Interesting. Maybe there's some psychological effect. I guess if you're on a long distance service and not sure if refreshments will be available, then you stock up and then don't need trolley. On the shuttles, a coffee would be nice but not essential as will be at destination soon....

It's a strange one, they didn't have catering on the 27 push-pulls but introduced it at some point with the 47 push-pulls.

Considering how short a journey it is/was it must've been deemed as being able to make money.

Perhaps weirder - when the Bathgate line re-opened in 1986, almost all the off-peak services had a trolley for a 26 minute journey! :lol:

On that basis maybe time wise London-Bristol is worthy of a buffet! ;)
 
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