Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

[Iskra]

Could the apparently little-used kitchens be used as a buffet?

They could be used to fulfil at seat orders via an app.

 

[Andy Pacer]

How does the lack of buffet affect the first class section on an IET? Does first class just have a trolley offering basic snacks?

 

[RailWonderer]

No, no buffets on Turbos ever. They have had trolleys at various points in their lifetime.

Yes, I meant trolleys. Of course they are too short to have a buffet.
My point: On a turbo even a trolley seems excessive (this was only a year ago I saw them carry them) yet on the IET trains the full buffet is being phased out. Why, on 3 hour + services do they think no one will want hot food, drink, refreshments yet on a 1 hour service a trolley is needed?

 

[ABB125]

They could be used to fulfil at seat orders via an app.

I quite like that idea (in principle, I personally don't use on train catering) because it makes use of the kitchen, solves the no-buffet "problem" and uses modern technology, so should qualify for "innovation" funding. (I'm not so sure about how innovative it really is; no doubt it would have to be trialled and contracted out to the cheapest bidder. Nevertheless if money's available the opportunity should be taken.)

 

[JonathanH]

No, no buffets on Turbos ever. They have had trolleys at various points in their lifetime.

The area in the centre coach in a 166 with three tip up seats was originally set up as a possible fixed catering point and had a catering power supply socket fitted. Of course that was 25 years ago - I never saw a catering trolley plugged into the socket there and times have changed.

 

[tsr]

The area in the centre coach in a 166 with three tip up seats was originally set up as a possible fixed catering point and had a catering power supply socket fitted. Of course that was 25 years ago - I never saw a catering trolley plugged into the socket there and times have changed.

Similar things have happened with various units of the Turbo/Turbostar family through their history. The interior configurations have obviously evolved, as the various classes of traction have - but, broadly speaking, they have always been quite flexible for this sort of thing.

 

[Bikeman78]

They remove seats and I end up standing.

You'd be very unlucky if the provision of a buffet made the difference between getting a seat or not. I've stood on HSTs from Paddington to Reading plenty of times but nearly always got a seat there. One exception was after a fatality at Twyford where I stood from Reading to Newport. On a Busy Penznace train I had to stand from Taunton to Exeter. On both occasions the train was packed and removing the buffet would have made no difference to me. I would also add that on occasions I've stood next to the buffet with a cup of tea or a can of cider. It would be hard to do that with a trolley, not least because I'd have no idea where the trolley was.

 

[Bikeman78]

It isn't so good for the long distance passengers, or (I contend) for society at large. The long distance passengers don't stick with the railway, which has demonstrated it doesn't care. They abandon it for other, more socially detrimental, modes of transport.

When I worked at rail enquiries there were a significant number of poeple from Brighton or Haywards Heath that the used two daily crosscountry trains. They weren't interested in any of the options via Euston. I wonder what such people do today. Presumably drive, National Express or don't make the journey at all.

 

[w1bbl3]

How does the lack of buffet affect the first class section on an IET? Does first class just have a trolley offering basic snacks?

Every GWR IET has a full kitchen at the first class end.

However GWR and FGW prior to IET introduction only used to offer complementary drinks and snacks in first. The IET's have seen a complementary breakfast (bacon roll or hot croissant or porridge) and rest day of day sandwich offer introduced for 1st class ticket holders.

Personally I suspect that full complementary meal offer for 1st class ticket holders across the day akin to VTWC or LNER would see the end of pullman services. It well be that DfT considered a full kitchen useful in attracting premium franchise payments when/if GW is retendered hence specification requirement.

 

[Ianno87]

When I worked at rail enquiries there were a significant number of poeple from Brighton or Haywards Heath that the used two daily crosscountry trains. They weren't interested in any of the options via Euston. I wonder what such people do today. Presumably drive, National Express or don't make the journey at all.

But the revised Brighton Main Line service that fills this capacity instead probably shifts more passengers overall.

 

[Master29]

With a kitchen on every unit you don’t have to worry about getting the right sets on the right services - which caused a number of issues with the diffferent flavours of buffet car available on HSTs. Countless times Pullman dining was pulled because the only set available was a TSB (mini-buffet) set. Today, with every IET having a kitchen, whatever turns up can do Pullman. Which, in turn, enables Pullman or a n other hot food offering to be expanded if there is the desire and demand in the future. It also provides stock storage space and a crew rest area - addressing two of the concerns raised by customer hosts prior to IET introduction.

Even if you did remove the kitchen you’d have to do some major reconfiguration to gain more standard class seats - it’s currently in a First Class vehicle. The trains don’t need even more First Class accommodation.

Ultimately, members here can argue about the relative merits and dismerits of technical specifications; of the supposedly gradually declining standard of travel facilities for passengers and so on and so on. If you want to feel like you’re doing something meaningful and coordinated about it the sign the petition. You’re not going to win over anyone here; the debate and discussion is relatively pointless.

On that basis this forum serves no purpose then?

 

[Master29]

Every GWR IET has a full kitchen at the first class end.

However GWR and FGW prior to IET introduction only used to offer complementary drinks and snacks in first. The IET's have seen a complementary breakfast (bacon roll or hot croissant or porridge) and rest day of day sandwich offer introduced for 1st class ticket holders.

Personally I suspect that full complementary meal offer for 1st class ticket holders across the day akin to VTWC or LNER would see the end of pullman services. It well be that DfT considered a full kitchen useful in attracting premium franchise payments when/if GW is retendered hence specification requirement.

Good luck when that happens. The cows coming home springs to mind.

 

[JN114]

On that basis this forum serves no purpose then?

Not at all, both the forum; and this thread have a purpose.

My observation was that this thread has turned into two camps of people shouting at walls. The thread is useful in so much as it has brought attention to the petition. That is a good thing. But the majority of the remainder of the thread is just the same arguments rehashed for the upteenth time over and over. It’s arguments made for the sake of making them. That in my opinion is pointless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On, or just outside the station, Exeter has Starbucks; Costa Coffee; WH Smith with their packaged sandwiches, crisps and confectionary; at least one SSP outlet selling savouries etc, and a range of vending machines. What were you expecting?

Something of the quality and variety of M&S Food at every InterCity station would be a good start.

 

[Bletchleyite]

no doubt it would have to be trialled and contracted out to the cheapest bidder

And therein lies the main problem with trolleys and their lack of quality/availability.

If you had redundancy of staffing just like you would for the other two traincrew, and you had well-designed trolleys and quality products sold thereon, the trolley would be quite decent. ScotRail's do seem to be a cut above, and those are I believe run internally and treated as a value-adding concept rather than a pure "lowest bidder" profit centre.

 

[JonathanH]

Something of the quality and variety of M&S Food at every InterCity station would be a good start.

I expect that SSP put an M&S Food outlet in at InterCity stations where there is room and they think the footfall is going to make it worthwhile, just like the economics of having a buffet or trolley on a train.

 

[hexagon789]

If you had redundancy of staffing just like you would for the other two traincrew, and you had well-designed trolleys and quality products sold thereon, the trolley would be quite decent. ScotRail's do seem to be a cut above, and those are I believe run internally and treated as a value-adding concept rather than a pure "lowest bidder" profit centre.

They also seem to be priced a bit better than many operators.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They also seem to be priced a bit better than many operators.

And interestingly the main coffee vendor on Queen St station is or was a ScotRail trolley!

Premium stuff is good for trolleys and buffets. For instance, anyone with half a brain will object to a three quid can of Foster's, but quite a lot of people will pay four quid plus for a fancy bottle of lager or bitter - or even one of those trendy 330ml cans!

Same with coffee - most people baulk at £2.50 Nescafe but will pay more than that for those fancy filter cups TPE and Ryanair use.

And tea - catering brand less so, but Yorkshire Gold?

But whatever you sell it has to be available reliably. I can't recall the last time I boarded a Virgin service and the Shop was not in operation, other than during stock takes, at all times of day including late evening services where the steward was clearly being paid to read the paper. If a trolley offers similar quality and the same reliable availability, I'd prefer a trolley. But a trolley tends to be done on the cheap and so this doesn't happen - and so I can't rely on it - and so I carry stuff on with me. A vicious circle.

I would however much rather not be manhandling a large bag with a cup of tea in my hand if I could be sure I could sit down and have one delivered to me within 10-15 minutes or so. I never take a cup of tea onto a flight (most airlines do allow it with a lid) because I am reliably sold or given one on board.

 

[hexagon789]

And interestingly the main coffee vendor on Queen St station is or was a ScotRail trolley!

Since the refurbishment, yes. Which I must admit is quite funny in a way!

 

[PeterC]

SNIP

I would however much rather not be manhandling a large bag with a cup of tea in my hand if I could be sure I could sit down and have one delivered to me within 10-15 minutes or so. I never take a cup of tea onto a flight (most airlines do allow it with a lid) because I am reliably sold or given one on board.

Same here, if I a need to pack a picnic in addition to my lugguage then throwing everything in the car is just too easy, especially with the time overhead of going into central London to pick up a long distance service.

 

[mde]

For the record, the Ginsters brand sandwiches available in SSP outlets such as Pumpkin are made in Cornwall with quality local ingredients. Do you know the provenance of the GWR buffet savouries?

Leicester, actually! That snippet of information is on the side next to the contact information.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Just looked at their video of train, with a glimpse of the kitchen, which is quite impressive with grill etc and well geared up for ping food. Shame not to put it to good use!!
http://www.ieptrain.co.uk/interior-layout/ 1.18
Like the idea of ordering with an app, and possibly deliver to your seat or text when ready to collect in a neat package/ bag. Would have been better to sited kitchen more centrally, eg between !st & 2nd, but pointless now - cost of converting.

 

[jimm]

Yes, I meant trolleys. Of course they are too short to have a buffet.
My point: On a turbo even a trolley seems excessive (this was only a year ago I saw them carry them) yet on the IET trains the full buffet is being phased out. Why, on 3 hour + services do they think no one will want hot food, drink, refreshments yet on a 1 hour service a trolley is needed?

A trolley seems excessive on a Turbo?

Do you understand the kind of duties Turbos were being used on from 1993 until very recently? Two hours plus to Worcester and Great Malvern or three hours plus to Hereford up the Cotswold Line. People were known to buy cups of tea and coffee and things to eat from the trolleys on those services.

The trolleys did also appear on a few of the shorter runs between Oxford and Paddington, that was usually to allow the trolley and attendant to get from/to their base at Oxford station - there was by no means blanket provision of catering. The buffets on HSTs doing the Oxford runs remained firmly shuttered.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ginsters brand sandwiches available in SSP outlets such as Pumpkin are made in Cornwall with quality local ingredients.

Our lass is Cornish and worked in the Ginsters factory for a while. I wouldn't describe anything from there as "quality"!

As for the old trolley v buffet debate, there's never going to be a consensus. Trolleys are great because they come to you, but bad because you have to wait for them to come to you. Buffets are bad because you have to leave your seat and belongings and walk through 5-6 carriages to get there, but it's much more of an on-demand service.

 

[HowardGWR]

I see on the SWR site that Elior supply the trolley service to Bournemouth, Exeter and Southampton. The note of 'Exeter' is interesting becuase I see the trolleys being loaded / unloaded at Axmnster!
Incidentally, I looked up Elior and it is a French multinational and worth a bomb. That should get Mr Cash going!
Very unhelpfully, the SWR site does not publish the price of trolley products. A case of a captive market one supposes.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You are aware of the catering outlets at Westbury (station buffet), Castle Cary ('The Butty Box'), Taunton (Starbucks - serving hot and cold food, Dashi cafe with takeaway food), Tiverton Parkway (shop selling sandwiches and pasties), Exeter St Davids (Starbucks, Pumpkin cafe, two convenience stores just outside), Newton Abbot (Pumpkin Cafe), Plymouth (Pumpkin Cafe, Spar).

And at all those locations, and any other station on the route, passengers are able to buy food on their way to the station, or even take their own.

You're really over-egging the necessity of an on train buffet. A journey without a freshly brewed tea or coffee isn't the end of the world.

Even so you can still get it! Just from a trolley not a buffet.
These people aren’t actually wanting a buffet convenience they just want the nostalgia of their HSTs.

 

[northernbelle]

I would genuinely like to know when this has happened, because every time I have used a HST operated service, and I have used the Buffet Car, no-one has nicked my seat nor have I had to “fight through the crowds of drunks at the bar”! Yes I’ve been on HSTs during football days, and yes I have walked past some many a drunken fan. Nor have I personally, or in my career working on the railways, seen or heard of any passengers luggage being stolen whilst they have visited a Buffet - most actually happen while the passenger is in their seat while the luggage is in the racks! But I’ve never had an experience in between walking from my seat to the buffet akin to a Friday night in a weatherspoons!

So you have never been on a train which has been full & standing throughout so anybody not in the buffet coach can forget about trying to visit it?

Or on a train with sports fans who crowd around the buffet drinking making comments about anybody who passes?

And in my railway career, theft of property is sadly common on board and a factor in why many people won't head to the buffet car. A big change that has happened since 1976 is that the value of passenger's luggage is much higher - laptops, tablets, technology we didn't used to carry around with us. A prime reason for making the IET overhead luggage racks as big as they are is the basis that passengers want their luggage as close to them as possible to enable them to keep an eye on it - the train technical specification available online makes for quite an interesting read in this regard.

I agree with the point about full and standing HSTs - many's the time that I've occupied an HST vestibule and the prospect of an obstacle course to get to the buffet means I haven't bothered. Static trolley or buffet - other than hot food (and that has been known to be unreliable on HSTs due to fridge and oven failures) - the trolleys seem to offer the same product range in any case.

I'd love to know the percentage of train passengers who:
1) Would like to use on board catering
2) Would like to have a seat on their journey
3) Would prefer to stand at a counter for their journey

I expect the percentages would be notably different to a number of RailUK Forum posters!

The truth is this; There is a firm place for on-board catering, but I believe it has moved on since HSTs were introduced. I also believe that the requirements do vary by route - the proportion of 'long haul' passengers being far higher on the East Coast route than the Great Western which, other than the WoE route beyond Taunton, is equivalent to many commuter journeys in the South East.

 

[Ianno87]

And in my railway career, theft of property is sadly common on board and a factor in why many people won't head to the buffet car. A big change that has happened since 1976 is that the value of passenger's luggage is much higher - laptops, tablets, technology we didn't used to carry around with us. A prime reason for making the IET overhead luggage racks as big as they are is the basis that passengers want their luggage as close to them as possible to enable them to keep an eye on it - the train technical specification available online makes for quite an interesting read in this regard.

And passengers are repeatedly reminded to keep a watchful eye on their luggage at all times.

 

[w1bbl3]

Leicester, actually! That snippet of information is on the side next to the contact information.

So Samworth Brothers then?

 

[JohnB57]

So Samworth Brothers then?

Who are Ginsters’ parent company. The food will be made in multiple locations.