Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

[Clarence Yard]

Would still work out cheaper in the long run to extend long rock probably too late now but a few years ago the descion could of been made. And there is no excuse for trains starting at Laira or north pole to be 5 car formed.

The problem with Long Rock was (and still is) that it cannot be extended.

There is a public road behind the sidings which limits the overall length and the whole site is not long enough for taking a 9 car through the shed and then into the sidings without stitching the whole site up for other units. There are 5 SX starters off Long Rock so it just isn’t feasible to go 9 car on all services without looking elsewhere.

The long term solution isn’t too far away, using a site that wasn’t available until this year. Ponsondane. Re-instating that site (including the connection), suitably updated to form proper carriage sidings, is on the radar. It isn’t cheap, however.

But, I would remind everyone, the decision to go 5 car west of Plymouth was dictated by the need to justify the Cornish half hourly service. Going 9 car first, even it was possible, would have killed that scheme stone dead. Much better to get that service in first and then justify going to 5 to 9 on the out of season London trains later.

If you want a bun truck on all W of E services, the minimum number of 802 units you need to extend is 14. You build 28 buffets, 28 other cars and then do a bit redistribution. But getting the funding to do that in a DA? Not easy, even if the DfT are on board, which they aren’t at the moment.

 

[irish_rail]

The problem with Long Rock was (and still is) that it cannot be extended.

There is a public road behind the sidings which limits the overall length and the whole site is not long enough for taking a 9 car through the shed and then into the sidings without stitching the whole site up for other units. There are 5 SX starters off Long Rock so it just isn’t feasible to go 9 car on all services without looking elsewhere.

The long term solution isn’t too far away, using a site that wasn’t available until this year. Ponsondane. Re-instating that site (including the connection), suitably updated to form proper carriage sidings, is on the radar. It isn’t cheap, however.

But, I would remind everyone, the decision to go 5 car west of Plymouth was dictated by the need to justify the Cornish half hourly service. Going 9 car first, even it was possible, would have killed that scheme stone dead. Much better to get that service in first and then justify going to 5 to 9 on the out of season London trains later.

If you want a bun truck on all W of E services, the minimum number of 802 units you need to extend is 14. You build 28 buffets, 28 other cars and then do a bit redistribution. But getting the funding to do that in a DA? Not easy, even if the DfT are on board, which they aren’t at the moment.

Interesting that ponsondane is being looked into let's hope that work gets the green light.....

 

[sheff1]

I don't agree - Starbucks is much more "premium" than say Spoons' chip-fryer-and-microwave fare, and the nuked paninis are really quite good. Not only that, but they keep better than regular sandwiches do.

I will take your word for Starbucks being premium - I have never set foot in one of their places* and don't intend to - but a perishable item which "keeps better" doesn't inspire confidence.

* I did once buy a 'coffee' from a kiosk on Leeds station which they had recently taken over - undrinkable.

 

[w1bbl3]

I don't agree - Starbucks is much more "premium" than say Spoons' chip-fryer-and-microwave fare, and the nuked paninis are really quite good. Not only that, but they keep better than regular sandwiches do.

Sort of starbucks sell hot snacks and "light bites" (in addition to coffee) where spoons sell full meals, it's far simpler to design a snack meal for quick reheating in a combi-oven particularly modern ovens where a custom heating programme can be built for each menu item.

The problem with microwave gristle burgers is predominately that the burger, bun and cheese need different cooking times so should be prepared separately which a small single oven kitchen doesn't have room for. The actual oven is still likely to be a combi-oven or steam oven. It is not a case of change the oven and the food will be fantastic but more design the food served to be cooked in the equipment available. Hot pots, bakes and panni's are ideal for such ovens a full roast, fish/pasta meal or burger are not. A more delicate meal would be best reheated in a steam oven over a longer period of time say 20 / 30 mins which is fine for a restaurant or long haul airline but not for trains or budget airlines where quick service is needed.

Yep, that sort of stuff would be better if we can't have real food, but we're told customers want turds, right up until we're told they're not putting buffets in the new units because not enough customers wanted turds!

To serve "real" food then surely the train needs to have full kitchen so that each item forming the meal can be cooked and prepared separately. This of course means a loss of seating space or the actual full kitchen on every single IET being staffed by a chef. The previous travelling chef service lost money hand over fist so not sure why new version wouldn't do the same. Logically I can't see a reason why a chef meal service needs a buffet counter that customer can go to, all that's needed is static order point or a mobile trolley capable of taking the order for someone to later bring the food to your seat.

However there needs to be real demand for such an offer for it to make sense, which IMHO is the real problem customers don't want hot meals at 3pm on a service that departed Plymouth at 1pm, so the chef spends much of service with little to do. Then you need to allow for service setup and pack up so the first and last 20 (ish) minutes are lost somewhat limiting the available service time to actually sell said food offer.

A reliable trolley service with hot food delivery should be able to realise everything a static buffet service could. The problem is that currently the trolley service isn't reliable and depending where you are on train you can see most of the journey pass before it reaches you. This IMHO is particularly noticeable SWI > PAD or BPW > PAD with the 9's where if the trolley has passed through the coach before you board it's quite likely it won't come back again.

 

[ashkeba]

To serve "real" food then surely the train needs to have full kitchen so that each item forming the meal can be cooked and prepared separately. This of course means a loss of seating space or the actual full kitchen on every single IET being staffed by a chef. The previous travelling chef service lost money hand over fist so not sure why new version wouldn't do the same.

Firstly, I've already outlined why I feel Travelling Chef failed: it was underadvertised, inconsistent provision and hard to use, same as the trolleys are.

Secondly, I'm arguing for a decent buffet service and then in reply you argue against restaurant service on every train?

 

[w1bbl3]

The travelling chef failed because there wasn't demand for the offering to such an extent FGW where loosing something in the order £1m pa on it. Whilst the provision was inconsistent and the advertising poor the chef options didn't IMHO represent a step up from the non chef options or the food available at principle stations. The best bits of the menu where the all day breakfasts and toasted sandwiches then the post 2009 omelettes. The toasted and warm sandwiches could be offered today as a prepack without needing chef much as many chain cafes do.
The problem is tastes have changed and most cafes outside of greesy spoons have stopped offering all day breakfasts or omelettes. The demand now is stuff like grilled lean chicken, scrambled egg, hot pots etc which are all possible as reheated prepack.

Your arguing for real food which isn't a reheated prepack meal surely? Real food means freshly cooked from fresh ingredients and that would need a chef not just a catering assistant that can stick it in a commercial microwave.
The existing trolley service could be configured to offer reheated pre-packed food and doesn't require static buffet counter.

 

[Roger100]

I find the thought of eating food prepared on a train where toilet waste is regularly flushed into the open at high speed somewhat unappetising. Thankfully that is almost a memory on the GWML, but alas still happens on the ECML which I use quite frequently now. Luckily I can manage to travel the 3 hours or so without having a meal and indeed a drink - I can get these before or after I travel. A drink may be nice, but you can't even get a passable espresso. I can bring a cold drink of my own choice.

I'm not bothered about a buffet or even a trolley, and I've managed to work for decades with just a packed meal halfway through the day. But i can appreciate that some people have different ideas about this. To me a train is for travelling, so much better than hours of driving. So I vote for seats over a buffet any day.

 

[jimm]

I liked it, but I was only maybe 30% successful at booking onto chef services (including some unplanned unavailability) and I knew they existed which most passengers seemed not to, based on the interest when I returned to my seat with decent hot food instead of the usual microwaved turd.

It felt like typical GWR: do something to curry favour, then do it half-hearted and hard to use, then say there's no demand and kill it.

The travelling chef failed because there wasn't demand for the offering to such an extent FGW where loosing something in the order £1m pa on it. .

Please tell me when FGW said there was no demand for Travelling Chef - I travelled on a good few trains over the years where the chefs ran out of ingredients, so demand was not a problem on many services.

Push the prices up to cut the losses and you would end up cutting demand. With the level of losses involved, there was only going to be one answer.

Even breaking even on on-board catering is an achievement and with the reductions in journey times that HSTs and subsequent 125mph trains have delivered across this country, the inevitable outcome was reduced demand for on board catering of all kinds.

 

[cactustwirly]

Sort of starbucks sell hot snacks and "light bites" (in addition to coffee) where spoons sell full meals, it's far simpler to design a snack meal for quick reheating in a combi-oven particularly modern ovens where a custom heating programme can be built for each menu item.

The problem with microwave gristle burgers is predominately that the burger, bun and cheese need different cooking times so should be prepared separately which a small single oven kitchen doesn't have room for. The actual oven is still likely to be a combi-oven or steam oven. It is not a case of change the oven and the food will be fantastic but more design the food served to be cooked in the equipment available. Hot pots, bakes and panni's are ideal for such ovens a full roast, fish/pasta meal or burger are not. A more delicate meal would be best reheated in a steam oven over a longer period of time say 20 / 30 mins which is fine for a restaurant or long haul airline but not for trains or budget airlines where quick service is needed.



To serve "real" food then surely the train needs to have full kitchen so that each item forming the meal can be cooked and prepared separately. This of course means a loss of seating space or the actual full kitchen on every single IET being staffed by a chef. The previous travelling chef service lost money hand over fist so not sure why new version wouldn't do the same. Logically I can't see a reason why a chef meal service needs a buffet counter that customer can go to, all that's needed is static order point or a mobile trolley capable of taking the order for someone to later bring the food to your seat.

However there needs to be real demand for such an offer for it to make sense, which IMHO is the real problem customers don't want hot meals at 3pm on a service that departed Plymouth at 1pm, so the chef spends much of service with little to do. Then you need to allow for service setup and pack up so the first and last 20 (ish) minutes are lost somewhat limiting the available service time to actually sell said food offer.

A reliable trolley service with hot food delivery should be able to realise everything a static buffet service could. The problem is that currently the trolley service isn't reliable and depending where you are on train you can see most of the journey pass before it reaches you. This IMHO is particularly noticeable SWI > PAD or BPW > PAD with the 9's where if the trolley has passed through the coach before you board it's quite likely it won't come back again.

The 800s already have a full kitchen, for the Pullman services.
Although I agree there should be a microbuffet installed, complete with a proper Expresso machine.

 

[cactustwirly]

I will take your word for Starbucks being premium - I have never set foot in one of their places* and don't intend to - but a perishable item which "keeps better" doesn't inspire confidence.

* I did once buy a 'coffee' from a kiosk on Leeds station which they had recently taken over - undrinkable.

It is premium, why else would they charge £5 for sandwiches?

I don't know why you thought the coffee was "undrinkable", it's good coffee.

 

[ashkeba]

It is premium, why else would they charge £5 for sandwiches?

I don't know why you thought the coffee was "undrinkable", it's good coffee.

It's widely accused of being burnt. Its supporters claim it's just a darker roast made stronger than the likes of Costa-cola, which while there's some truth in that, doesn't mean it's not also Starburnt.

That said, while I avoid Starbucks, some FGW instant coffee (maybe a Kenco?) was the only coffee I bought that was bad enough I handed it back undrunk. LNER's new buffet automatic machine seems OK. Hope they keep them maintained well!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Resurrecting a slightly old thread here, but I've made a number of GWR journeys recently, and on none of them has the catering been up to scratch. Even on non-crowded trains, the approach seems generally to have been to serve from a static trolley, with in some cases no attempt to actually announce that fact.

Quite why the trolley doesn't continuously move up and down like it does on every train that's only ever had a trolley I don't know. Are some staff unwilling to do that and are doing static all the time in protest?

But in any case, it is really not working at all, and must be significantly hitting their takings. On today's journey, for instance, of 5.5 hours from Penzance to Paddington (yep, I've done the whole thing now ) I would probably have bought 3-4 cups of tea had the opportunity arisen to do so, and I'd imagine a choccy bar with at least one of them. I actually was able to buy one can of Coke (no hot water).

I sort of get the thing about those doing a shortish journey (e.g. Padd-Bristol) will just take it with them. But a 5.5 hour journey (and I was by no means the only one doing that whole journey at all) is a fantastic opportunity to make a killing on selling all manner of food and drink.

 

[hexagon789]

Resurrecting a slightly old thread here, but I've made a number of GWR journeys recently, and on none of them has the catering been up to scratch. Even on non-crowded trains, the approach seems generally to have been to serve from a static trolley, with in some cases no attempt to actually announce that fact.

Quite why the trolley doesn't continuously move up and down like it does on every train that's only ever had a trolley I don't know. Are some staff unwilling to do that and are doing static all the time in protest?

But in any case, it is really not working at all, and must be significantly hitting their takings. On today's journey, for instance, of 5.5 hours from Penzance to Paddington (yep, I've done the whole thing now ) I would probably have bought 3-4 cups of tea had the opportunity arisen to do so, and I'd imagine a choccy bar with at least one of them. I actually was able to buy one can of Coke (no hot water).

I sort of get the thing about those doing a shortish journey (e.g. Padd-Bristol) will just take it with them. But a 5.5 hour journey (and I was by no means the only one doing that whole journey at all) is a fantastic opportunity to make a killing on selling all manner of food and drink.

Perhaps they are trying to destroy the catering by stealth?

 

[Sleepy]

Resurrecting a slightly old thread here, but I've made a number of GWR journeys recently, and on none of them has the catering been up to scratch. Even on non-crowded trains, the approach seems generally to have been to serve from a static trolley, with in some cases no attempt to actually announce that fact.

Quite why the trolley doesn't continuously move up and down like it does on every train that's only ever had a trolley I don't know. Are some staff unwilling to do that and are doing static all the time in protest?

But in any case, it is really not working at all, and must be significantly hitting their takings. On today's journey, for instance, of 5.5 hours from Penzance to Paddington (yep, I've done the whole thing now ) I would probably have bought 3-4 cups of tea had the opportunity arisen to do so, and I'd imagine a choccy bar with at least one of them. I actually was able to buy one can of Coke (no hot water).

I sort of get the thing about those doing a shortish journey (e.g. Padd-Bristol) will just take it with them. But a 5.5 hour journey (and I was by no means the only one doing that whole journey at all) is a fantastic opportunity to make a killing on selling all manner of food and drink.

Quite honestly West Country MP'S should have taken DfT to task when this was first mooted. Shiny new trains overriding common sense ?

 

[ashkeba]

Quite why the trolley doesn't continuously move up and down like it does on every train that's only ever had a trolley I don't know. Are some staff unwilling to do that and are doing static all the time in protest?

Trollies too wide for the aisles, I heard. They fit, but only just, so they hit armrests and even arms far too often. Catering staff don't need that hassle, so tend to static unless it's really really quiet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trollies too wide for the aisles, I heard. They fit, but only just, so they hit armrests and even arms far too often. Catering staff don't need that hassle, so tend to static unless it's really really quiet.

That would explain it, but given that Hitachi have designed the trolleys specifically for the stock that is beyond incompetent.

I did notice quite a few damaged armrests from this, to be fair.

 

[Master29]

That would explain it, but given that Hitachi have designed the trolleys specifically for the stock that is beyond incompetent.

I did notice quite a few damaged armrests from this, to be fair.

As if this wasn`t predicted. I, along with many others stated how this would be an issue on W of E services but were all too often greeted with rhetoric spouted from GWR and various cronies about how "this was thought out at the highest level" , "it doesn`t fit their business model" and of course the classic" a public survey was taken and showed the majority of users didn`t want a buffet". That`s a document up there with Chamberlains` famous piece of paper. Where was this survey taken, on the Maidenhead to Marlow line?

Then there`s another chestnut, " it would take away too many seats". This despite the fact on 10 car trains on most W of E services there are 2 useless big kitchens taking up around a carriage of space that could carry an entire standard seating compliment.

On the subject of 10 car trains that is yet another cock up on Penzance services as the summer season is now showing and will no doubt soon show in all it`s unfolding glory with TripAdvisor's one star lighting up like a beacon.

This was a great opportunity for GWR and let`s not talk of the DaFT on this because the 802`s weren`t n the original IEP project. One of our most noted and respected members who clearly works for GWR virtually admitted how the DaFT have neglected the W of E in his last post on the now defunct class 800 GWR thread 400+ posts. Not surprisingly this thread was closed soon after possibly thinking of a backlash of "we told you so`s".
Short forms, poor interiors, no buffets and some crap workmanship in places. It`s a shame because at first sight they do look good.

 

[Bromley boy]

Perhaps they are trying to destroy the catering by stealth?

I wouldn’t be surprised.

Make it crap/under promote it so fewer and fewer people use it, then use poor sales figures as the justification for pulling it completely.

These days, with outlets such as M&S etc. at most major stations selling good quality food, it’s not surprising that catering trolleys selling a limited, over priced range struggle to break even.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair I am happy with a trolley, but in a 5.5 hour journey I would expect to be served at least 3 times and for the trolley to be moving up and down selling at all times (with enough crew to allow for breaks as necessary).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn’t be surprised.

Make it crap/under promote it so fewer and fewer people use it, then use poor sales figures as the justification for pulling it completely.

These days, with outlets such as M&S etc. at most major stations selling good quality food, it’s not surprising that catering trolleys selling a limited, over priced range struggle to break even.

For journeys up to about an hour and a half I'd agree, but for West of England services at 5.5 hours with many people doing the whole thing it simply makes no sense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for the kitchens, there would be more benefit of binning those in favour of DB style microwaveable restaurant car fare and adding a buffet. They are a shocking waste of space in a 5 car set.

 

[Bromley boy]

As for the kitchens, there would be more benefit of binning those in favour of DB style microwaveable restaurant car fare and adding a buffet. They are a shocking waste of space in a 5 car set.

Presumably they think the high end “Pullman Dining” offering is better at turning a profit.

Agreed about the set length. It made a lot more sense on the HSTs.

 

[broadgage]

Years ago, I and others cast doubts about the suitability of 5 car DMUs without buffets or through gang ways, for West country services.
Advocates of the change suggested that the additional order for 9 car IETs "for west country services" could be to a better specification and might include a buffet.
I do not recall anyone at the time stating that 9 car trains could not be accommodated at Penzance. So was this a deliberate attempt to mislead ? or had no one measured the depot ?

Suggestions that long distance west country services could be restricted to 5 car units were criticised as being unduly negative.

Now what has actually happened.
The add on order that was originally said to be for west country services was of exactly the same outer suburban specification, and cant be used on west country services in any case.

The trolley service is usually static, as I and others forecast.
On a 5+5 train, only a single trolley is available, also as forecast.
Often the trolley does not appear at all, and very seldom now on Sundays.

On my most recent IET journey, I did eventually obtain a free sandwich in first class, but was not allowed to buy any wine or beer to go with it. Progress.

 

[Carlisle]

As for the kitchens, there would be more benefit of binning those in favour of DB style microwaveable restaurant car fare and adding a buffet. They are a shocking waste of space in a 5 car set.

Unlikely, given how much this country struggles to break with tradition & particularly for something not actually conceived here.

 

[RLBH]

As if this wasn`t predicted. I, along with many others stated how this would be an issue on W of E services but were all too often greeted with rhetoric spouted from GWR and various cronies about how "this was thought out at the highest level" , "it doesn`t fit their business model" and of course the classic" a public survey was taken and showed the majority of users didn`t want a buffet". That`s a document up there with Chamberlains` famous piece of paper. Where was this survey taken, on the Maidenhead to Marlow line?

The usual way of doing it is, I believe, 'Would you prefer a walk-up buffet or at-seat service', worded in a way that the user imagines at-seat service to be something akin to the First Class offering, but which the operator is free to interpret as a minimum-wage subcontract worker doling out coffee and beer at equal temperatures.

 

[Master29]

As for the kitchens, there would be more benefit of binning those in favour of DB style microwaveable restaurant car fare and adding a buffet. They are a shocking waste of space in a 5 car set.

The catering area in the Voyager first class seems much smaller although there are fewer seats admittedly. One wonders why the designers didn`t think of that for the IET. However, as you point out the size of the kitchen on a 5 car IET for only 36 first class seats is an appalling waste of space given they are unused most of the time.

 

[hexagon789]

Make it crap/under promote it so fewer and fewer people use it, then use poor sales figures as the justification for pulling it completely.

Something along those lines or at least reduce its availability.

 

[Master29]

The usual way of doing it is, I believe, 'Would you prefer a walk-up buffet or at-seat service', worded in a way that the user imagines at-seat service to be something akin to the First Class offering, but which the operator is free to interpret as a minimum-wage subcontract worker doling out coffee and beer at equal temperatures.

By this logic, you could apply that to anything.

 

[HantsExile]

I've also recently made journeys on this line: Reading to Penzance, and Penzance to Reading (5 hour trip). On the outward journey, the trolley arrived in my carriage but reversed before it reached me and never reappeared. Another passenger went to find out what was happening, discovered that "due to a fault" the trolley was out of use. No announcements made. On the return journey, it was announced just after Penzance that due to luggage (now there's a surprise!) the trolley could not get through and would operate as a static service. I thought something was said to the effect that due to Health & Safety no hot drinks could be sold ??? This level of non-service is unacceptable on such a long journey IMHO.

 

[Bromley boy]

Is there anything in the franchise agreement that actually compels GWR to provide a catering trolley?

Otherwise it might well make more commercial sense for them to bin the trolley service altogether and just stick with the kitchen/fine dining.