Petrol panic buying

[Iskra]

I don't condone panic buying in anyway, but shouting at/insulting those who do it will not change anything. They are the symptom, not the problem.

The problems are the behaviour of a media oligarchy that cares about profits and division, so sensationalise perceived shortages to get more clicks and purchases, and a neoliberal economic model that relies on people being ill educated in areas like critical thinking, analysis and problem solving, so they can easily fall for marketing tricks to keep the whole economic system afloat. The desire to act in one's own interests above others and to buy stuff unnecessarily is hardwired into people's brains through all these problems they've been exposed to for a long time; it's a systemic problem.

Until we start identifying the real problems, then proposing and enacting solutions, the risk of issues like panic buying will not go away.

Isn't the real underlying problem the fallacy of 'Just In Time' logistics; that's simply too fragile to deal with the unexpected. There have been many examples exposing this since the start of the Pandemic.

Filled up on the motorway on the way home last night, plenty of Diesel available but only two pumps had BP Ultimate petrol left. I'm working away this week so have enough for that, then I'm on holiday so hopefully it is sorted by the time I get back.

 

[Dai Corner]

Isn't the real underlying problem the fallacy of 'Just In Time' logistics; that's simply too fragile to deal with the unexpected. There have been many examples exposing this since the start of the Pandemic.

I'm not sure about the practicalities of building tanks large enough to hold several weeks' supply at every petrol station?

 

[Domh245]

I'm not sure about the practicalities of building tanks large enough to hold several weeks' supply at every petrol station?

Indeed - everyone criticises JIT when there's disruption, but few appreciate the indirect benefits the vast majority of the time when everything is fine. Maybe they're happy to accept the additional costs associated with warehouses and tanks full of 'dead stock'

 

[Peter Sarf]

How does forcing people to visit more often help reduce the queues and congestion at petrol stations? Surely it does the complete opposite and makes it worse.

Depends if their second visit is after this all blows over. There is only so much fuel the masses can buy and I am assuming I can last until the demand drops.

Croydon to Cardiff? If only they were served by main railway lines....

Cheaper and more convenient by petrol - I will be taking passengers and diy stuff. If we cannot go we cannot go. Coach would be the alternative to the car - after all why pay more than the coach fare when you might end up in a coach (Rail Replacement Bus).

None of that changes the basic maths. Reducing the amount that can be purchased on each visit means that more visits are needed to get the same amount of fuel, leading to more queues and congestion at petrol stations.

But the hope is it discourages so many visits. However it would tempt the panic buying hoarder in me to keep the car fuel tank very well stocked. Not sure why I was not keeping the car above 75% already TBH !.

The first thing I'd do is ban fuel going into jerry cans without prior approval, such as for the A.A. Why don't police/ambulances etc have their own fuel facilities, as they used to? Oh, sorry, got the answer to that, the usual one, a combination of costcutting/rationalisation combined with the arrogance of assuming nothing can ever go wrong with the running of the country by those who consider themselves born to it, whereas the exact opposite is the truth, as we are finding bigtime now.

Short memories and not wanting to believe things can go wrong.

It was already pretty clear if you opened the articles from the first three paragraphs that there was no shortage of fuel.

The headline grabs your attention. Many will not have read the boring detail.

Are the governemt losing control of this?

People seem to have lost faith in the system

True although I think the tense is wrong - I feel the past tense is applicable !.

It just feels to me that with everything being so interlocked if you pull at one thread everything falls apart rapidly.
The system only works if all of it works, but it’s all a bit more fragile than we realise sometimes.

This is true of a lot of things. We really do live on the edge.

Didn’t COVID-19 teach us how fragile the infrastructure of our own country was? I was shocked at how quickly it unravelled during the early stages of the pandemic and decided to be much more wary of incidents like the fuel shortage from the outset as a result.

Yes "just in time" is really clever and interesting. The motivation of course is to save money. But any hiccup and there is no slack in the system/process to absorb any blows. As below.

Isn't the real underlying problem the fallacy of 'Just In Time' logistics; that's simply too fragile to deal with the unexpected. There have been many examples exposing this since the start of the Pandemic.

Filled up on the motorway on the way home last night, plenty of Diesel available but only two pumps had BP Ultimate petrol left. I'm working away this week so have enough for that, then I'm on holiday so hopefully it is sorted by the time I get back.

I fill up to the brim whenever I get below a quarter OR if I am going on a long (75+ miles) journey. By filling to the brim and noting the litres and mileage I can ckeep an eye on my fuel consumption.

I'm not sure about the practicalities of building tanks large enough to hold several weeks' supply at every petrol station?

The just in time bit still aplies in that whatever deliverery a fuel station orders is delivered as close to the stage they would normally run out as possible. It is not necessarily a delivery large enough to fill their tanks. Fuel sat in forecourt tanks costs money and the fuel station will not want to pay for that fuel too soon.

Indeed - everyone criticises JIT when there's disruption, but few appreciate the indirect benefits the vast majority of the time when everything is fine. Maybe they're happy to accept the additional costs associated with warehouses and tanks full of 'dead stock'

Indeed. I suppose the choice is, if one does not like Just In Time, one can keep full jerry cans in the shed / under-the stairs - better check the insurance though !. More sensibly one can keep ones car fully fuelled - for me that is MY cost and MY convenience. I am relying on the problem not lasting long enough that I run dry. Made difficult by the fact that I was not keeping my car full of fuel !.

 

[Butts]

Just filled up at Tesco Falkirk drove in and straight onto a pump.

When I came out of the store thirty minutes later there was still no queue to get in and pumps free.

Is this panic buying an urban myth or was I lucky ?

 

[Starmill]

The headline grabs your attention. Many will not have read the boring detail.

Anyone who takes much notice of a headline without also considering at least the first two or three paragraphs of the story will never be able to live their life in peace again in this country. However I accept that the skill to see past a simple headline is something that we could focus on developing more generally.

Yes "just in time" is really clever and interesting. The motivation of course is to save money. But any hiccup and there is no slack in the system/process to absorb any blows.

That is of course because most firms' implemented 'just in time' very poorly, without due regard to resilience. The theory of manufacturing as pioneered in the Toyota Production System does leave some spare capacity to absorb exogenous shocks.

Croydon to Cardiff? If only they were served by main railway lines....

Trying to purchase a reasonable value ticket on the hourly service between London and Cardiff to actually use it is another matter however. Unless you can convince people that the Anytime Day Single at £131.8 is good value.

 

[Dai Corner]

Croydon to Cardiff? If only they were served by main railway lines....

Trying to purchase a reasonable value ticket on the hourly service between London and Cardiff to actually use it is another matter however. Unless you can convince people that the Anytime Day Single at £131.8 is good value.

The Forum's favourite split ticket retailing website offers a flexible fare from East Croydon to Cardiff at less than half that.

 

[Starmill]

The Forum's favourite split ticket retailing website offers a flexible fare from East Croydon to Cardiff at less than half that.

Of course it can't if one compares like with like, reducing the fare only to £106.64 by splitting at Reading and Swindon. But it wasn't about that was it? Even if you secure two good value 'Advance' tickets you're looking at around £50 each way at the cheapest, and non-refundable fixed time tickets are incomparable with a car. As well as significantly more expensive. The key point being that even at very high fuel prices exceeding 150p/litre you're still not going to find price competitive trains for this journey. And that's before considering a second or third person travelling together.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The Forum's favourite split ticket retailing website offers a flexible fare from East Croydon to Cardiff at less than half that.

Interesting at £68 if a return and if I am travelling alone but still more than I might spend on petrol for the return.

 

[Dai Corner]

Of course it can't if one compares like with like, reducing the fare only to £106.64 by splitting at Reading and Swindon. But it wasn't about that was it? Even if you secure two good value 'Advance' tickets you're looking at around £50 each way at the cheapest, and non-refundable fixed time tickets are incomparable with a car. As well as significantly more expensive. The key point being that even at very high fuel prices exceeding 150p/litre you're still not going to find price competitive trains for this journey. And that's before considering a second or third person travelling together.

Agreed on the perceived cost of driving v going by train, but the journey in question is from Croydon, not central London so that's the fare we should use for comparison.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Quick break at work and the traffic outside is absolutely mayhem. Cars still queuing either way to try and fill up, the (main) road is gridlocked and the traffic can't flow. The bus lane is blocked and looks like a few angry lorry drivers are ready for fisticuffs as they are held up by the queuing cars barging in front of them. My main concern is the ambulances trying to get in and out

Times like this where the police need to manage the traffic flow but a police motorcycle stopped briefly to speak to a queuing driver and then continued on his way

 

[Busaholic]

It's not a good idea in principle at all. Much like the assumed ease (by certain members of this site) of switching to electric vehicles, it's a sure-fire way of making sure that those of lower incomes are priced off the road.

I'm absolutely convinced that, whether or not our government has factored this in, the dogmatic 'electric battery good, petrol and diesel bad' message when converted into policy by car manufacturers (as is happening) will result in far fewer of the population having access to cars by 2040, say. In fact, I think it'll only be the top 20% or so in society who are still able to contemplate having a car, and probably even they will face huge problems in getting them recharged on any trip of some distance, with electric charging points costing far more than diesel or petrol would. I took an ill-advised, but unplanned, visit to a Moscow underground station in the 'suburbs' in 1974 when the West's relations with the USSR were at a very low ebb, and found horses and carts on the streets there, and, luckily, one very old Lada taxi with a terrified driver who very reluctantly drove us to within about a mile of central Moscow before bundling us out, fearful for his own safety, The Russian hierarchy could be seen in their Merc type cars being driven in and out of the Kremlin all day, every day, and they formed the vast majority of cars we saw during our stay. This is how it will go here too, I'm sure.

That’s always been my worry when it comes to minimum wage earning rural young families that live in remote areas of the southwest (this goes for the rural parts of the rest of the country too of course).
Scraping together a few hundred quid to get a car and have some quality of life is a manageable stretch. Scraping the money together to afford the cheapest electric car on the market which will still cost multiples of thousands of pounds no matter how you look at it is completely unachievable, yet it’s these people that genuinely have fewer transport options than most of society and they were born in these areas with all of the associated roots that tie them there.

Very well said.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm absolutely convinced that, whether or not our government has factored this in, the dogmatic 'electric battery good, petrol and diesel bad' message when converted into policy by car manufacturers (as is happening) will result in far fewer of the population having access to cars by 2040, say. In fact, I think it'll only be the top 20% or so in society who are still able to contemplate having a car, and probably even they will face huge problems in getting them recharged on any trip of some distance, with electric charging points costing far more than diesel or petrol would. I took an ill-advised, but unplanned, visit to a Moscow underground station in the 'suburbs' in 1974 when the West's relations with the USSR were at a very low ebb, and found horses and carts on the streets there, and, luckily, one very old Lada taxi with a terrified driver who very reluctantly drove us to within about a mile of central Moscow before bundling us out, fearful for his own safety, The Russian hierarchy could be seen in their Merc type cars being driven in and out of the Kremlin all day, every day, and they formed the vast majority of cars we saw during our stay. This is how it will go here too, I'm sure.

Very well said.

Great for the environment though!

 

[Starmill]

Agreed on the perceived cost of driving v going by train, but the journey in question is from Croydon, not central London so that's the fare we should use for comparison.

I was quoting fares from Croydon.

 

[Dai Corner]

I was quoting fares from Croydon.

So was I

Your Outbound Journey, Tuesday, 28 September, 2021​

East Croydon
Redhill


17 mins



09:16
09:33

Thameslink train service to Horsham (details)

wait for 10 mins (info)


Redhill
Reading


1 hr 10 mins



09:43
10:53

Great Western Railway train service to Reading (details)

wait for 20 mins (info)


Reading
Cardiff Central


1 hr 25 mins



11:13
12:38

Great Western Railway train service to Swansea (details)

Reserved Seats​

Do you want seat reservations (if available)?

Your Tickets​

	Price	Description
East or West Croydon to Redhill Anytime Day Single (SDS)	£5.70	Travel is allowed via any permitted route. Valid at any time - click for details
Redhill to Cardiff Central Super Off-Peak Single (SSS)	£47.50	Valid only for travel via (changing trains or passing through) Guildford and Reading. Restriction YW applies - click for details
Fare: £53.20

 

[matt]

Just filled up at Tesco Falkirk drove in and straight onto a pump.

When I came out of the store thirty minutes later there was still no queue to get in and pumps free.

Is this panic buying an urban myth or was I lucky ?

I filled up at Whitby on Saturday with virtually no queue so seems it must vary by area. On my drive home I passed a few petrol stations that had no fuel.

 

[Starmill]

So was I

Your Outbound Journey, Tuesday, 28 September, 2021​

East Croydon
Redhill


17 mins



09:16
09:33

Thameslink train service to Horsham (details)

wait for 10 mins (info)


Redhill
Reading


1 hr 10 mins



09:43
10:53

Great Western Railway train service to Reading (details)

wait for 20 mins (info)


Reading
Cardiff Central


1 hr 25 mins



11:13
12:38

Great Western Railway train service to Swansea (details)

Reserved Seats​

Do you want seat reservations (if available)?

Your Tickets​

	Price	Description
East or West Croydon to Redhill Anytime Day Single (SDS)	£5.70	Travel is allowed via any permitted route. Valid at any time - click for details
Redhill to Cardiff Central Super Off-Peak Single (SSS)	£47.50	Valid only for travel via (changing trains or passing through) Guildford and Reading. Restriction YW applies - click for details
​ Fare: £53.20

But of course not like for like, as that's not a flexible ticket valid at any time of day. It is also only valid on the slower route.

 

[birchesgreen]

Just filled up at Tesco Falkirk drove in and straight onto a pump.

When I came out of the store thirty minutes later there was still no queue to get in and pumps free.

Is this panic buying an urban myth or was I lucky ?

I think its varies by area a lot. My local station (which i can see from where i live, just about anyway) had a small queue on Friday lunchtime (1 car in the road) but since then none.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Because talk of shortages has been everywhere, I think people will decide to fill up if they see a petrol station without a queue, even if they don't need to fill up urgently. If a few different people all have that same thought, a queue develops... then others see the queue and think "I'd better fill up now, just in case".
It's basically a positive feedback loop.

 

[Dai Corner]

But of course not like for like, as that's not a flexible ticket valid at any time of day. It is also only valid on the slower route.

It's what Trainsplit defaulted to but perhaps any further discussion should be in the Fares Advice & Policy forum as we're off-topic for this thread.

 

[Butts]

I filled up at Whitby on Saturday with virtually no queue so seems it must vary by area. On my drive home I passed a few petrol stations that had no fuel.

It might help that Falkirk is a stones throw from Grangemouth home to one of Scotland's largest Oil Refineries and major supplier of both Petrol and Aviation Spirit to most of the Country.

 

[al78]

By the way, I wouldn't not advocate any form of "idiot tax" without major reforms to our education systems first. While there are idiots for the sake of it, there are plenty who are ill-informed/educated because our education systems don't teach what needs teaching, such as critical thinking, nor are fully up to standard for other reasons, not just in schools but workplaces and other areas as well.

Agree with this, although I think many people these days are cognitively lazy, can't be bothered to think and do a bit of further reading into anything, and soak up anything that sounds simple and easy to follow, even more so if it aligns with their world view. That is why many stupid irrational decisions, both individually and collectively, are made regularly. For all our claimed intelligence, we seem unable to use logic to override primitive instincts where those primitive instinicts are inciting us to do the wrong thing at the wrong time.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Lack of petrol at the pumps is all our fault apparently...

Fuel supply: Minister blames empty petrol pumps on unnecessary purchases - BBC News

People buying fuel when they do not need it are the cause of queues at petrol stations and empty pumps, the environment secretary has said.
George Eustice said there was "plenty of petrol" and urged people to buy it in the way they usually do.
He said the situation would "calm down" and the lack of HGV drivers was not a "huge problem" for petrol stations.
There were no plans at the moment to bring in the Army to drive tankers, he said.

 

[gg1]

Lack of petrol at the pumps is all our fault apparently...

Fuel supply: Minister blames empty petrol pumps on unnecessary purchases - BBC News

People buying fuel when they do not need it are the cause of queues at petrol stations and empty pumps, the environment secretary has said.
George Eustice said there was "plenty of petrol" and urged people to buy it in the way they usually do.
He said the situation would "calm down" and the lack of HGV drivers was not a "huge problem" for petrol stations.
There were no plans at the moment to bring in the Army to drive tankers, he said.

Well that's a rarity, a Tory minister has said something I agree with.

EDIT - when I first clicked on that BBC link it had a picture of a petrol station (BP I think but not totally sure) charging 158.9 per litre, now removed for some reason.

 

[al78]

Lack of petrol at the pumps is all our fault apparently...

Fuel supply: Minister blames empty petrol pumps on unnecessary purchases - BBC News

People buying fuel when they do not need it are the cause of queues at petrol stations and empty pumps, the environment secretary has said.
George Eustice said there was "plenty of petrol" and urged people to buy it in the way they usually do.
He said the situation would "calm down" and the lack of HGV drivers was not a "huge problem" for petrol stations.
There were no plans at the moment to bring in the Army to drive tankers, he said.

I agree with him. It is not any one persons, fault, it is the collective actions of a large number that are together at fault, and are causing the very thing they are afraid of.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Agree with this, although I think many people these days are cognitively lazy, can't be bothered to think and do a bit of further reading into anything, and soak up anything that sounds simple and easy to follow, even more so if it aligns with their world view. That is why many stupid irrational decisions, both individually and collectively, are made regularly. For all our claimed intelligence, we seem unable to use logic to override primitive instincts where those primitive instinicts are inciting us to do the wrong thing at the wrong time.

Yes. I see it often where people really cannot be bothered. But generally, for many people, it gets too detailed and time consuming to er save time !. Frustrating.

Even my boss sometimes gets tired of me figuring out the right way to do something (only worth it if it is going to get done often enough). No time allowed to stop and think (and never mind the safety). Sometimes I get congratulated when a change of approach saves time. Best feather in the cap is being given mess to sort out.

But, then again, where would we be without these kind of people. Where I work I see people doing dirty jobs and then someone else wonders why their rest area is so messy - kitchen not kept clean. But if the users cared about kitchen cleanliness they would not want to do the dirty job. Takes all sorts.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I agree with him. It is not any one persons, fault, it is the collective actions of a large number that are together at fault, and are causing the very thing they are afraid of.

And during my lunch break, I've been watching the circus unfold at the petrol station opposite my hospital. People just behaving irrationally as if the world was going to end tomorrow. Even our ambulances have been trying to get fuel. No sign of the police coordinating the traffic flow. People are trying to pass on the wrong side of the road; even the buses as their lane is blocked with cars trying to get in. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there, very surreal - and totally unnecessary.

 

[alxndr]

Hopefully the delivery issues don't imply that any bus, railway or other service vehicle depots will be running dangerously low on diesel. Unfortunately of course lots of delivery vans etc have pretty much just got to sit in the queues with everyone else which isn't ideal.

We were told to fill all our vans when the first rumblings of it getting silly started, just in case. Would have been adding to the situation, but we can’t do anything if we can’t get there. Worst case scenario is hopefully that we have to switch to another van than usual. Thankfully due to COVID we hung on to some old vans that would have otherwise been sold off to allow distancing, so we’ve got reserves. The average person doesn’t have that ability though.

My worry with the purchase limits are that people will run it until it’s nearly empty. A full tank is about £110 at current prices, so that’s 3-4 visits. I wonder if the emergency vehicles are also capped to the same limit as they’ll face the same issue.

 

[DelayRepay]

Yes it was an Asda filling station.

As it is unmanned, unless they use number plate recognition cameras to prevent multiple purchases for the same vehicle I suspect using a different card would have worked. Unfortunately the £30 worth filled my tank so I wasn't able to experiment.

It's interesting to find out that the technology allows a limit to be set.

There's always a limit - I think it's normally £100 to match the amount they pre-authorise on the card.

The other issue might have been that the first authorisation hadn't cleared from the card so the issuer declined the second one for some reason which could be insufficient funds to cover both pre-auth's but more likely to be as a suspected fraudulent transaction (since it's not normal behaviour).

 

[Starmill]

The signs up at some petrol stations say that HGV and emergency vehicle drivers can go inside the shop to ask to pay for more than £30 worth of fuel which will be allowed. Obviously at the unstaffed filling stations I don't know what they do.