• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Phasing out the sale of house coal and wet wood by 2023

Status
Not open for further replies.

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,691
Location
Scotland
I'm actually surprised it's stopped short of an outright ban on open fires in homes in urban areas, to be honest, because there really is no need at all to heat a home in that way in an urban area with a gas supply.
Because the nanny state can only reasonably go so far in changing behaviour before it starts bordering on repression.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,531
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Because the nanny state can only reasonably go so far in changing behaviour before it starts bordering on repression.

I've heard a few people describe this as the nanny state, but it really is not. The "nanny state" is where the state acts to protect individuals against themselves as an actual nanny looking after kids would (a railway example being banning droplights so idiots can't stick their head out and get decapitated on a tree despite clear signage telling them not to). The law being used to protect people from the actions of others (e.g. asthmatics from those who burn coal and wood in houses in gas-supplied areas) may be considered a bit strict, but does not fit that ethos and is exactly what the law is for.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,691
Location
Scotland
The law being used to protect people from the actions of others (e.g. asthmatics from those who burn coal and wood in houses in gas-supplied areas) may be considered a bit strict, but does not fit that ethos and is exactly what the law is for.
You and I appreciate that, but the wider populace will just see it as more "nanny state intrusion".

"A man's home is his castle" and all that.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,191
Location
St Albans
I wonder whether the attention that is being paid to this uncontrolled source of pollution might stir local authorities to use powers established under existing clean air acts, (1956, 1968 & 1993). They can declare areas to be 'smoke control areas' and prohibit the burning of certain fuels with penalties. I assume that some posters here have not experienced the smogs that London endured in the '50s and '60s. I can only remember the 1962 event and just how serious a health issue it was. This latest suggestion from the government may be targetting the easy access to unsuitable wood and other solid fuels by outlawing the sales of it to the publiic, but it has revealed that the executive acknowledges the dangers that wood and low-grade coal burning creates and there will be pressure to totally remove the option from consumers, especially in built-up areas.
For those in denial of pollution issues, they will find that legislation will accelerate year upon year so they might as well get used to adopting a more considerate behaviour towards others' health.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,630
Around christmas time when I go to my parents house, which is in a medium sized village, it becomes difficult to breathe because of the smoke from wood burning stoves.
It is horrible in a way that even central manchester has never managed.
 

alxndr

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2015
Messages
1,467
Around christmas time when I go to my parents house, which is in a medium sized village, it becomes difficult to breathe because of the smoke from wood burning stoves.
It is horrible in a way that even central manchester has never managed.

Quite surprised by this, I never noticed it in 17 years of living in a village. I might smell that someone's burning a fire if I go back now as it's not a scent I'm exposed to where I live now, but it doesn't make it uncomfortable. I can't say that I found it difficult to breathe even when the wind blew the wrong way/vents were incorrectly set and the smoke filled the building rather than travelling up the chimney, it was just smoky.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,630
Quite surprised by this, I never noticed it in 17 years of living in a village. I might smell that someone's burning a fire if I go back now as it's not a scent I'm exposed to where I live now, but it doesn't make it uncomfortable. I can't say that I found it difficult to breathe even when the wind blew the wrong way/vents were incorrectly set and the smoke filled the building rather than travelling up the chimney, it was just smoky.
It's a relatively posh village with substantial amounts of densification going on, so I think its probably just a huge mass of stoves run by people who have little experience in running them firing whatever wet wood they have available.

I should probably consult my PhD supervisors about the use of nuclear steam to provide kiln dried firewood in enormous quantities to meet this new demand.....
 

Belperpete

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
1,575
None of you has spotted the real problem - domestic coal is use is far greater than heritage railway consumption, so if allowed to continue to burn it supply will almost certainly be at a far higher price.
Steam engines don't usually burn domestic coal. They normally use steam coal.
 

Belperpete

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
1,575
I buy locally produced logs and consider this a reasonably green heating source.
A lot of people equate "traditional" with "green" (whatever that actually means). A lot of traditional practices are actually very environmentally unfriendly when carried out on a large scale. The burning of coal, peat and wood being one example. The environment could cope with open fires burning anything going in the middle ages because there weren't that many people doing it, but it became a different matter with the introduction of industrialization and big cities. Going back to "traditional" practices may make things worse, rather than better.

Likewise there is a lot of confusion around pollution. Initially, we concentrated on CO2, and hence the push for diesel in preference to petrol, as diesel cars give off less CO2. It has since been recognized that there are a lot more pollutants to worry about than just CO2, and it has been realised that overall diesels are far worse polluters. Hence the push-back against diesels.

Nuclear is the greenest energy source, in terms of its impact on the environment. Unfortunately, it has other draw-backs.
 

Belperpete

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
1,575
Prepare to see the price of "seasoned" wood skyrocket then, I haven't had a stove in a house since I was a child and it is one of the best heating sources you can get, so much warmer & cosier than gas or electric.
Agreed that a stove or fire is much cosier, but then that is generally because everyone is huddled around the fire. A room with a single heat source can have a very noticeable temperature gradient. Whereas a centrally-heated house, with multiple, properly-positioned radiators in the living rooms should have a fairly even temperature gradient. Unfortunately many homes have central heating done "on the cheap", with a single radiator in each room located in the centre of the house (as that's where it is easiest to pipe to), rather than under the windows.

My only worry is that they are banning the use of coal, what will be targeted next, steam railway's?
I am concerned that they also seem to have their sights set on gas - am I right that there will soon be a ban on gas supplies to new homes?
 

433N

Guest
Joined
20 Jun 2017
Messages
752
I think we should re-instate the legislation of James I who attempted to cut urban pollution by making the burning of coal punishable by death - showed great foresight IMHO. :)
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,182
Location
Fenny Stratford
Around christmas time when I go to my parents house, which is in a medium sized village, it becomes difficult to breathe because of the smoke from wood burning stoves.
It is horrible in a way that even central manchester has never managed.

Is that right? I lived in a rural village where most people had a fire. Never any problem. Perhaps coal has changed.
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,558
Is that right? I lived in a rural village where most people had a fire. Never any problem. Perhaps coal has changed.
Coal hasn't changed that much, but the ability of people to burn it properly probably has.
 

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,352
Location
Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
I'm all for eradicating major sources of pollution and emissions...in the long run it's vital for all of us.

That said, the smell of a coal fire is one of those things that invokes a proper Proustian rush in me. Coal fires are the smell of my childhood, a period when most people had already changed to central heating. Luckily it turns out that coal fire-scented candles are a thing!
 

DerekC

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2015
Messages
2,107
Location
Hampshire (nearly a Hog)
My log supplier (locally sourced) has just sent me the following, which suggests that complying with this new directive is going to be tricky, so far as logs are concerned:

The Government announced on 21st February 2020 that the sale of traditional bituminous coal and small volume (less than 2m³) wet wood (moisture content of more than 20%) is being phased out by 21st February 2021.

Loads of wet wood 2m³ and above will still be available but with have to be sold with details of how to store the wood correctly to allow it to season further before use.

The maximum 20% moisture figure does not take into account the effect moisture in the air has on wood.
For example, a log on a sunny summer day could have a moisture content of 10% but that same log on a wet winter day could have a moisture content of 30%. Kiln dried logs can have a very low moisture content when first removed from the kiln, but will absorb atmospheric moisture just the same as an air dried log, unless they are vacuum packed. …………………

We continue to do everything we can to supply quality seasoned hardwood but we cannot guarantee that it will be below 20% moisture content. We will continue to glean as much information as we can about the new regulations over the coming months, but based on what we have already read, we may have to change our minimum load size to 2m³ so we can comply with the legislation.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
One of my leisure activities involves hiking to bothies in remote areas, and a fire is an essential part of the bothy experience. I think we'll have to carefully consider what fuels will work best in future. The current favourite is lugging in sacks of coal.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,531
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
One of my leisure activities involves hiking to bothies in remote areas, and a fire is an essential part of the bothy experience. I think we'll have to carefully consider what fuels will work best in future. The current favourite is lugging in sacks of coal.

I'd imagine if you instead lug in smokeless coal it'll work just fine.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top