Picking tickets up without the card you booked them with

[martyn29]

I have just had a passenger who's sister booked the tickets for her and wanted me in the booking office to print them out, because she hasnt got the card that the tickets were booked with. I refused as on the booking it says same card which means that the same card must be produced to collect the tickets.
Obviously a row erupts when she finds out she is not going to get her way, and has to buy new tickets to carry on with her journey. Then a lovely parting comment, I hope there is no one sitting there later on this year. (meaning she hopes we lose our jobs)
I am not going to release tickets unless the correct card is produced, in which case if she had the correct card she could have picked them up from the machine!

Anyone else have any similar experiences or any views?

 

[LondonLarry]

You did the right thing. No doubt, she's unemployed and sponging off her family!

You have no way of know whether the card was being usued fradulently, and her sister would've been notified that she needs to take the original card to pick up the tickets.

 

[martyn29]

thanks I told her all this and she was with her parents and they were giving there tuppence worth of insults as well!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
she had to cough up £109.50... how do I sleep at night?

 

[Max]

Personally, I feel that if the tickets were booked with a card in your name, and you can prove your identity, the tickets should be released. Sometimes my mum has paid for tickets for me on her credit card and has not had time to collect them, and most of the time the people at the booking office are understanding and print off the tickets as long as I prove my address. It should be about discretion and common sense really.

 

[yorkie]

If they can give the name & address of the cardholder then they should be released - that's what I've been told and is what happens at York (NXEC), and they're pretty good and know what they're doing. If she was her sister she should have been able to provide that information. If unable to answer that information then I agree with not releasing it.

 

[Failed Unit]

Personally, I feel that if the tickets were booked with a card in your name, and you can prove your identity, the tickets should be released. Sometimes my mum has paid for tickets for me on her credit card and has not had time to collect them, and most of the time the people at the booking office are understanding and print off the tickets as long as I prove my address. It should be about discretion and common sense really.

It is a pity that you can't specify the tickets will be picked up by someone else. I often book tickets for my parents as they find getting the cheapest fares far too complex now. It would be nice if they could collect tickets I have ordered on my credit card that are intended for them. But having them posted to them works just as well (although the forthcoming strikes may change my opinion).

I agree it is hard to tell if someone is trying it on, but if someone was defrauding a credit card, they would also just have them posted to thier home address rather than collect the tickets. There are no check for this!

 

[martyn29]

Different train companies must have different procedures.! EMT state NOT to release any tickets to anyone other than the card holder.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
when people buy these tickets online they are accepting the terms and conditions..

 

[Greenback]

This is a difficult one. Some hypothetical situations:

1. I make a booking but have my wallet and all my cards pickpoceted before I get to the station. I cancel my cards straight away, but it takes time to issue new ones. I haven't reported the theft because I need to get the train. What happens?

2. I forget to take hte actual card I used for the booking and it's lying by my PC at home. I do have other cards with my name on, and the booking number. Do I get my ticket?

I always avoid collecting from a machine/station for these reasons. I appreciate that this isn;t always possible though.

Incidentally, I have never been asked for a particular credit or debit card when I pick up theatre tickets, or arrive at hotels. They just seem happy to see a card with the correct name on it!

 

[mrcheek]

Was the card a credit card or a debit card?

Often in mail order magazines, or on websites, you are given the chance to input 2 addresses: the address for delivery, and the address of the person making payment. Under delivery address, it will usually say something like "If paying by credit card, the items must be sent to the cardholders address".
Rules on credit cards are VERY strict, because of the huge liabilities placed on the card issuer in case of fraud.

If it was a credit card, you did the right thing. I personally believe that if you had issued the tickets, you would be breaking the law.

If it was a debit card, you still did the right thing, as you are doing your job correctly! But it would probably have been OK if you had handed over the tickets.

 

[yorkie]

I think the real fraud is with certain TOCs trying to use any excuse to get people to buy new tickets.

 

[John @ home]

I have just had a passenger who's sister booked the tickets for her and wanted me in the booking office to print them out, because she hasnt got the card that the tickets were booked with.

Personally, I feel that if the tickets were booked with a card in your name, and you can prove your identity, the tickets should be released.

If they can give the name & address of the cardholder then they should be released - that's what I've been told and is what happens at York (NXEC)

My experience of losing a card involved going to a local travel centre with my passport, evidence of my address and a printout of the online booking which included the reference number. I explained the position to the travel centre staff, who then phoned the web support department of the TOC which had sold me the tickets. The web support person then asked me some questions and spoke to the travel centre staff who confirmed that my identity had been established. The TOC web support then faxed to the travel centre the authority to issue the tickets. On receipt of this, the travel centre staff entered the booking reference number into their computer and this allowed the tickets to be printed. I allowed an hour for this procedure, and needed most of that time.

Different train companies must have different procedures.!

If that is so, it seems to me that security is reduced. A fraudster will choose to deal with the TOC with the least secure system.

EMT state NOT to release any tickets to anyone other than the card holder.

What do EMT do when a card has been lost or stolen?

John

 

[theblackwatch]

I think the real fraud is with certain TOCs trying to use any excuse to get people to buy new tickets.

For the passenger not following the instructions regarding collecting the ticket? Strange how you are the first to get on your high horse and bleat when a guard or ticketing person doesn't follow the rules and does something wrong, yet when they do follow the rules and the passenger doesn't you accuse the TOC of fraud.

Obviously there will be genuine cases when there is a card problem, and John @ home has the right approach. As was stated in the initial post, the card used belonged to a different person - even if this person lived at the same address there is no way of knowing that the cardholder gave permission for it to be used for the purchase.

 

[martyn29]

Lost/Stolen cards
They have to contact the website/company where they purchased said tickets from and they will then change the ticket collection criteria

 

[theblackwatch]

Out of interest, what happens if the card used to buy the tickets has expired? Bearing that it is often essential to book tickets 2-3 months before the travel date if you want the cheapest AP fare, what happens if you don't collect your tickets till the day, and the card expired 7 weeks earlier?

 

[MCR247]

Would you not get a new card?

 

[yorkie]

I stand by my claims.

If you know the name & address then you are highly likely to be genuine, and there's more chance of a fraudster using other means - after all, when the ticket is delivered to your door, the postman doesn't check photo ID and ask you to sign to ensure you are the cardholder!

If you live at the same address as the cardholder then that's good enough to hand them the ticket. If not, then the entire postal system is flawed!

For the TOCs to suggest that someone's brother or sister can't collect their tickets is a clear and deliberate attempt to defraud the customer of money by making them pay extra, in my view. I think it's a disgraceful policy, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

Do hotels make people pay for rooms twice? No. Do restaurants make people pay for meals twice? No. So why on earth is it acceptable on the railway?

 

[martyn29]

The sister isnt the one travelling!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
its the same if you buy arline tickets! you need the card you booked it with to collect them!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I stand by what the TOC says
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
from east midlands trains website:

Can I book a ticket for someone else to collect at the station?
You can only collect a rail ticket from the Fast Ticket machines at the station if the credit card used to make the booking, along with the collection reference numbers, are provided.

 

[mrcheek]

For the TOCs to suggest that someone's brother or sister can't collect their tickets is a clear and deliberate attempt to defraud the customer of money by making them pay extra, in my view. I think it's a disgraceful policy, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

Do hotels make people pay for rooms twice? No. Do restaurants make people pay for meals twice? No. So why on earth is it acceptable on the railway?

presumably it will be stated in the terms and conditions when purchase is made, that the card used must be presented when the tickets are collected. to suggest that a standard and sensible security measure is fraud is absolutely ridiculous.

a hotel or restaurant would not ask anyone to pay twice because they simply wouldnt accept payment from somebody using someone elses card! a hotel or restaurant would make you wash dishes to pay off your bill. maybe the railway companies should make people sweep the platform clean to pay for their tickets if they dont have money.....

 

[Oswyntail]

presumably it will be stated in the terms and conditions when purchase is made, that the card used must be presented when the tickets are collected. to suggest that a standard and sensible security measure is fraud is absolutely ridiculous.
......

Yes, agreed. But the condition doesn't half make it hard on the paying customer. If I am buying a ticket for my daughter to go to London, I have to go to the station to get the tickets. And it also means that, without much advance planning, I cannot purchase a ticket online for my son to come back from University. The system is understandable, but there could be more flexibility. Say etickets?

 

[yorkie]

It doesn't matter which sister is travelling as you can buy tickets for anyone. A ticket can be used by who it is bought for, it does not have to be used by the purchaser.

If you stick rigidly to the card used for the purchase, then anyone whose card is lost/stolen has to buy a new ticket. That's clearly ridiculous, and I'm pretty sure that would be illegal.

If NXEC can release tickets by giving the name & address of the card holder then EMT bloody well can too! It is a reasonable security measure to ask for name & address. It is unreasonable to ask for proof that is not required when tickets are delivered via the post. If it is reasonable to do that, then as I said before, the entire postal system is flawed, but of course you ignore that point, Mr Cheek.

A hotel or restaurant would actually allow the people staying in the restaurant to be different people to who actually paid the bill. I've witnessed it happen. e.g. parents may do a booking. They will ask for name and address on arrival and if you can give that, you are fine. The stuff about washing dishes is in some weird fantasy world and not reality.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The system is understandable, but there could be more flexibility. Say etickets?

e-tickets are worse. With Mobitix they claim that the cardholder has to travel. This is not the case with a normal ticket booked online. I've never witnessed this be enforced and it's in such small print and, in my view an unfair term, IANAL but I would be surprised if it's legally enforceable. I've used Mobitix several times on GC (only when there's special offers) and this was never checked/enforced, although GC do not enforce all of the Mobitix restrictions anyway.

 

[EM2]

I think the restaurant point is more to do with paying. If I make a booking saying I am Mr Jones and try to pay with a credit card in the name of Mr Smith, they might get just a little suspicious.

 

[theblackwatch]

It really doesn't matter what restaurants etc do. These are the Ts & Cs for booking train tickets - not eating a curry! If people don't want to comply with them for whatever reason, then they really haven't got grounds to complain. And if they disagree with them, hen perhaps they should purchase them via an alternative means - there is a choice!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would you not get a new card?

Which may have a different number!

 

[yorkie]

Terms can be deemed unfair though. In the case of a woman buying a ticket for her sister, it is absurd for the sister who is the one for whom the ticket was bought for (this is legal and within the terms!) to be denied the right to pick up the ticket if correctly answering security questions (name of person making booking + address of person making booking). I think that is an unfair term, and clearly the security risk is tiny, it is about maximising revenue not security. Given that anyone who lives at the address can pick up a ticket booked through a website and delivered through the post, you cannot be sure that the person picking up the ticket is the one travelling anyway. How far do you take it?!

 

[martyn29]

she should have had the card that the tickets were booked with then we wouldnt havent have all this!!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
from east midlands trains website:

Can I book a ticket for someone else to collect at the station?
You can only collect a rail ticket from the Fast Ticket machines at the station if the credit card used to make the booking, along with the collection reference numbers, are provided.[/QUOTE]
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It doesn't matter which sister is travelling as you can buy tickets for anyone. A ticket can be used by who it is bought for, it does not have to be used by the purchaser.

If you stick rigidly to the card used for the purchase, then anyone whose card is lost/stolen has to buy a new ticket. That's clearly ridiculous, and I'm pretty sure that would be illegal.


Already said that if the card is lost/stolen the person concerned would have to contact the website where they purchased said tickets and the collection terms would then have to be changed so that the train company/booking office has the means to print the tickets offically

 

[theblackwatch]

Its hardly an unfair term - it's quite clear that, had the female concerned followed the simple instructions for picking up tickets, there wouldn't have been a problem. Is it really the TOC's fault if the person decides they don't want to follow them?

 

[EM2]

Terms can be deemed unfair though. In the case of a woman buying a ticket for her sister, it is absurd for the sister who is the one for whom the ticket was bought for (this is legal and within the terms!) to be denied the right to pick up the ticket if correctly answering security questions (name of person making booking + address of person making booking).

Here's a what-if. The woman who turned up to collect the ticket stole the handbag of the other woman. Once she'd done that, she bought some train tickets (and maybe some other things) and then dumped the card, as she knows it'll be cancelled any moment. But also in this handbag, is the woman's post, which she picked up from the mat on the way to work (OK, unlikely I know )
The woman who has bought the tickets with the stolen card arrives at the ticket office with a story that her sister paid for the tickets, so she doesn't have the card. Clerk asks her for her 'sister's' name and address, which she can provide.
She gets the tickets.

Is that OK? Would you be happy with that situation?

 

[tony_mac]

its the same if you buy arline tickets! you need the card you booked it with to collect them!

I don't know which airline(s) you are referring to, but that certainly isn't universally true.

Yes, the rules say that you need to have the card to pick up the tickets. But that doesn't mean that the rules shouldn't be changed.

If you can prove that you bought the ticket, or that they were bought on your behalf, why shouldn't some allowances be made? Almost every other industry would, as that would be beneficial to the customers, but that might mean changing the rules and/or the system.

 

[yorkie]

Here's a what-if. The woman who turned up to collect the ticket stole the handbag of the other woman...

Well, there's a solution to that: get the tickets delivered, then when your handbag is stolen, the tickets are stolen with it. Problem solved? Err..... maybe not!

Right, in that case, in order to guard against theft of posted tickets, everyone should provide proof that their handbag was not stolen. Anyone who fails to provide proof must pay £100 to Basil Fawlty Trains Ltd. Happy?

I
If you can prove that you bought the ticket, or that they were bought on your behalf, why shouldn't some allowances be made? Almost every other industry would, as that would be beneficial to the customers, but that might mean changing the rules and/or the system.

Absolutely.

We are talking about people who can answer reasonable security checks, not someone randomly asking without any checks being made. It is common sense to allow it, and on the rare occasions I've asked for tickets to be issued without my card then following this procedure has been acceptable. EMT should be forced to follow this reasonable procedure too.

 

[EM2]

If you can prove that you bought the ticket, or that they were bought on your behalf, why shouldn't some allowances be made? Almost every other industry would, as that would be beneficial to the customers, but that might mean changing the rules and/or the system.

But prove it how?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, there's a solution to that: get the tickets delivered, then when your handbag is stolen, the tickets are stolen with it. Problem solved? Err..... maybe not!

See, you haven't read what I posted properly. The woman at the ticket office bought the tickets after she had hypothetically stolen the bag and card.

 

[yorkie]

Here's a what-if. The woman who turned up to collect the ticket stole the handbag of the other woman. Once she'd done that, she bought some train tickets (and maybe some other things) and then dumped the card, as she knows it'll be cancelled any moment. But also in this handbag, is the woman's post, which she picked up from the mat on the way to work (OK, unlikely I know )

Interesting that you mention the woman's post. If she had her ticket delivered through the post then the criminal would have the tickets. Therefore by your logic tickets must not be posted!

The woman who has bought the tickets with the stolen card arrives at the ticket office with a story that her sister paid for the tickets, so she doesn't have the card. Clerk asks her for her 'sister's' name and address, which she can provide.
She gets the tickets.

If the card is cancelled I think it will still work in the ticket machines, so could be used, thus bypassing all these security checks anyway. They'd not need to throw the card away.

Is that OK? Would you be happy with that situation?

The only way this situation works as you want it to, is if the card is stolen but then not held - but why would they throw it away? This is a very far fetched scenario and the pros and cons of it are very dubious when you consider the number of genuine people whose cards have been stolen and they then can't use the original card, and if all those people have to shell out £100 for a new ticket, that's nothing to do with security and is just about the TOC generating unfair revenue and driving it's customers onto the roads.