Places to see freight going over points at top speed!

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by richieb1971, 28 Apr 2015.

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  1. richieb1971

    richieb1971 Member

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    I read an article once where the author stated somewhere near Chesterfield you can see freight trains go over points designed so that the train should not have to slow down.

    Obviously the points are very shallow in design.

    Does anyone know where you can witness freight trains going over such points at top speed? I'd like to film such activity I think it would make for a great video.

    Thanks,

    Richard.
     
  2. The Snap

    The Snap Established Member

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    Top speed for ost freight is 60mph. If you're lucky you might get some at linespeed over Colton Junction from the Leeds lines.
     
  3. civ-eng-jim

    civ-eng-jim Member

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  4. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    The "straight" route over points normally has no speed restriction so I assume you are referring to a curved route.

    Depending on its age, the article you're referring to may have been discussing Clay Cross Junction, which was abolished in 2008 and the tracks there now just diverge with no point work. However there are several crossovers between parallel tracks in the Chesterfield area with turnout speeds in the region of 75mph which is the top speed for any freight.

    Actual junctions where routes diverge over pointwork at high speed are a little rarer than crossovers, probably because the diverging route is often limited by curves that the Victorians built and there is no point in making the turnouts any faster than the route immediately beyond them. A few at random: Trent South, Syston South, Colwich, Wootton Bassett.

    The ultimate junction is Colton south of York, which allows 125mph on both routes.
     
  5. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    I am sorry but i dont know what you are on about. Can you explain? What do you think will happen when the train goes over the "points"?
     
    Last edited: 29 Apr 2015
  6. 37038

    37038 Member

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    The hobby never ceases to amaze... rare point gen?
     
  7. class 9

    class 9 Member

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    Class 4 freight runs up to 75mph. As mentioned above Colton jct you can see both coal empties and the Teesport-Felixstowe Freightliner doing 75 when on the Fast lines.
     
  8. Flying Snail

    Flying Snail Member

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    A lot of noise, presumably?

    Unless they are moveable frog points in which case there will be no point noise and it is essentially the same as a train traversing a shallow curve.

    BTW how many junctions in Britain now have moveable frog points? I vaguely recall reading that some were put in on the WCML upgrade but that may not be correct.
     
  9. Joseph_Locke

    Joseph_Locke Established Member

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    None, to several decimal places, I believe. They went in at Basford Hall under WCRM ...

    ... and then they came out again.

    What's truly astonishing is that Locke Senior worked on the development of the BR swing nose crossing (to use UK parlance rather than colonial) in the 1970s.
     
  10. Flying Snail

    Flying Snail Member

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    Something else to add to the list of BR developments that were never carried through properly in the UK then.

    Really I am surprised that they are not used. Always seemed like a superior solution for high speed points, more moving parts but far less force and wear on the railhead and wheels.
     
  11. richieb1971

    richieb1971 Member

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    There are points designed for fast freights. The only ones I know of are at Didcot where the Oxford line diverges from the main GWML.

    It sounds like Colton is the only place that would give a good video. Wootton Basset, I watched a few videos from there but it seems only a nearby bridge gives any kind of access to it.
     
  12. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    Ditto Ledburn. Thoroughly unreliable.
     
  13. Joseph_Locke

    Joseph_Locke Established Member

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    I do wonder how much of that was the crossings and how much was the Horribly Pathetic Switch System?
     
  14. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    I am sorry, i still dont have any idea what you are talking about. What "points" are especially designed for "fast freights".
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    EDIT: I have looked AGAIN at this thread to try and understand it and help out.

    I THINK the OP wants locations where he can see freight trains change lines at speed. I think the OP has a misunderstanding about junctions, switches, crossings etc. Many are designed so that trains dont have to slow down. It isn't something special.

    I should point out that nothing dramatic will happen at these junctions and it isn't really anything exciting, but each to their own!
     
    Last edited: 30 Apr 2015
  15. Joseph_Locke

    Joseph_Locke Established Member

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    Hanslope then - fast crossovers between all 4 lines?
    Rugby TV - 125mph both ways on the Down Fast -> Down Coventry/Down TV Fast?
    Brinklow Jn - I imagine that lead isn't 15mph either!
     
  16. Jamesb1974

    Jamesb1974 Member

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    I was thinking the same thing. Does the OP want to see a freight train snaking over a junction at speed? How about Winwick Jnc. Not particularly fast, but 50mph from the Up Earlestown to the Up Slow and a good bit of snaking across.
     
  17. richieb1971

    richieb1971 Member

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    The article stated that near Chesterfield you could witness freight trains passing over points at full speed because the points top speed was more than the freight trains top speed.

    It said it was a sight to behold.

    I don't know whats so hard to understand here.. Its not rocket science. I just want to video such action and wondered if anyone could tell me some places that regularly have this activity.
     
  18. fluff

    fluff Member

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    Balshaw Lane Junction on the WCML between Wigan and Preston. The WCML changes from two to four tracks with the routes to & from the slow lines being 75mph. Plenty of freights use the slow lines.
     
  19. The Barlow Boy

    The Barlow Boy Member

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    Moveable frogs?
    Is that what used to be called "swing nose crossings"?
     
  20. snowball

    snowball Established Member

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    Possibly what people find puzzling is

    1) the suggestion that high speed points include some that are specially designed for freight rather than passenger

    2) the suggestion that there is some special phenomenon to see when freight goes over points at high speed.
     
  21. Railsigns

    Railsigns Established Member

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    Moveable frog is the American term for what are still called swing nose crossings in Britain (which there are a large number of on CTRL/HS1).
     
  22. QueensCurve

    QueensCurve Established Member

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    Strictly speaking this is a "swing nose crossing". Apart from "HS1" i don't think there are any. If HS1 complies with French practice they will be standard on that route. Certainly a photo published in a recent Modern Railways showed one such.

    I believe swing nose crossings were installed at Bourne End (Herts) and/or Ledburn as part of WCRM but later taken out due to some difficulty with the interlocking.

    The Down Main to Down Coventry turnout at Rugby allows 125 mph on both routes but has a plain crossing. Turnout speeds much more than this require swing nose crossings.

    Interestingly the Groups standard for swing nose crossings does not require a check rail adjacent the crossing. In Swiss practice however a checkrail would still be provided.
     
  23. Joseph_Locke

    Joseph_Locke Established Member

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    *cough* I said that a while ago.

    More interestingly again South African Railways mandate them at 1 in 18 or flatter.
     
    Last edited: 2 May 2015
  24. QueensCurve

    QueensCurve Established Member

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    I understand that the Rugby Down Main/TV to Down Coventry is about 1 in 32 and that the design used would require a swing nose crossing at 1 in 35 or flatter.
     
  25. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Established Member

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    So French-designed swing-nose crossings work in the UK but UK designs don't?
    Is there any reduction in speed/functionality by reverting to fixed crossings?
    (ie are crossing speeds at the WCML locations mentioned less than they were intended to be?).

    I remember Roger Ford having an MR article headed "Miilions lost at train robbers' bridge", referring to the cost of the rework necessary at Ledburn (and harking back to the Great Train Robbery in the same vicinity).

    If you want to see fast freight I always find Oxford a good spot, with 75mph container trains charging past on the through lines.
    This is in contrast to the passenger trains which normally crawl into the station on the platform loops.
     
  26. Joseph_Locke

    Joseph_Locke Established Member

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    UIC designed ones rather than just French, but yes, apparently.

    We (the UK) also decided to design our own high-speed S&C rather than just adopting the UIC suite, but we all know how well RT60 worked, don't we.

    The problem with fixed crossings is that the two flangeways have to be 40-44mm or the wheels won't pass through, and as the crossing angle gets more acute the length over which the wheels are unsupported also increases; draw two 44mm wide rectangles overlapping at 1.63 degrees (1 in 35) to see what I mean.

    This problem affects both turnout and main line but the crossing angle is determined by the turnout speed, so yes fixed crossings limit turnout speeds, from a straight main line, to 70mph.

    No doubt QueensCurve can explain how the 1 in 33.5 at Rugby is allowed to run at 125mph both ways. :roll:
     
  27. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Established Member

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    Interesting.
    Weaver Jn is 100mph (EPS) to/from a 125mph straight route, which seems pretty good.
    I wonder if the recently relaid Didcot East Jn is for higher than the previous 70mph?
     
  28. D1009

    D1009 Established Member

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    No, as many trains crossing over at Didcot East Jn are going to and from the East curve, there is no need for a speed higher than 70 there.
     
  29. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    repating the same statement over and over again desont really help! I am unsure why you think there is some "sight to behold" or what you think will happen. Can you explain?

    As for speed then Colton will be about the best but, honestly, it isnt worth getting yorself so excited over
     
  30. richieb1971

    richieb1971 Member

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    Horses for courses.

    I've ran out of things on railways to film. But I've never filmed freight trains crossing points (switching tracks) anywhere near 60mph.

    Perhaps I am thinking there something there when there isn't... But usually, that is the case in life. I will most likely be sorely disappointed...
     
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