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Places where there should be station groups but arn't

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philthetube

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It strikes me that there are many places where there should be station groups but they don't exist.


the two which would be useful to me are Burnley and Blackpool, are there many others?
 
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Lewlew

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Milton Keynes, Bletchley and Wolverton would be useful on occasion

What about Wimbledon and Wimbledon Park?
 

Merseysider

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I don’t believe there is a group for Wrexham Central/General - the two are an 8 minute walk apart.
 

tomwills98

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Cardiff Central, Queen Street, and the Bay. The valleys fare system is zonal so could bring that in as well.
 

A Challenge

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Dorchester had its grouping removed I believe, that should be brought back I think.
 

Bletchleyite

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and add Fenny Stratford, Woburn Sands and Apsley Guise

Don't know if I'd go as far as Apsley Guise as it's in Bedfordshire, but out to Woburn Sands yes.

Downside would be a higher fare from Bletchley to London. For longer distance fares, both Bletchley and Wolverton already take the fare from MKC, so it would make sense there.

I'd probably say overall it'd be handy if they existed in some way in every "takes fare from" situation, such as Ormskirk, Aughton Park and Town Green have the same fares to most places any significant distance off Merseyrail.
 

A Challenge

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Not according to BR fares, (just checked a minute ago) and the other current thread about fares groups?
I'm sure it was the other thread I remembered it from, but probably should have checked first - I'm sure there was an example on there I was wondering why it was removed.
 

maniacmartin

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They could start by adding South Croydon to "Croydon Stations" or renaming it "Croydon E/W". I've seen people confused by that before.
 

Ianno87

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They could start by adding South Croydon to "Croydon Stations" or renaming it "Croydon E/W". I've seen people confused by that before.

I've used a Croydon Stations ticket to South Croydon before without realising.

I think it's kind-of unofficially accepted anyway by staff, or staff don't really know themselves (that would be an interesting one to test in a court case if somdbody got PF-d!)
 

Class800

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Pollockshields West and Pollockshaws West

Pollockshields East and Pollockshaws East

Since staff say these are often mixed up in tickets anyway, and unofficially accepted
 

Haywain

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Pollockshields West and Pollockshaws West

Pollockshields East and Pollockshaws East

Since staff say these are often mixed up in tickets anyway, and unofficially accepted
Sounds like a lot of Pollocks...
 

Bletchleyite

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Pollockshields West and Pollockshaws West

Pollockshields East and Pollockshaws East

Since staff say these are often mixed up in tickets anyway, and unofficially accepted

I suppose there is precedent for that in Haymarket and Waverley being unofficially interchangeable for so long that it's amazing it hasn't been done formally there.

Another one, anyway - while it'd complicate routeing, the two Burscoughs might make some sense, particularly given that the Ormskirk line has no Sunday service, so it's quite plausible that someone who lives in Burscough might want to travel via Preston to Scotland but return via Wigan. Before Penalty Fares it's one that would probably be accepted locally (with the worst consequence being having to buy another ticket on board), but if you're going to get heavy with enforcement these things need writing down.
 

Cdd89

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Oxford & Oxford Parkway is one I'd like to see. But I expect that wouldn't be commercially acceptable.
 

Ianno87

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Oxford & Oxford Parkway is one I'd like to see. But I expect that wouldn't be commercially acceptable.

This begs the question - what are station groups "for"?

I'd always seen them as basically allowing journeys to leave from one station and return to the other station (or vice versa) where these are on different routes.

In Oxford's case, you buy a ticket from the "furthest" one and start/end short if you need to, surely?

Compare to say, Leamington Spa - Birmingham where you may want to arrive at New Street but get a train back from Moor Street.
 

Bletchleyite

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Oxford & Oxford Parkway is one I'd like to see. But I expect that wouldn't be commercially acceptable.

Once the Government controls fares, so competition between Chiltern and GWR is ended (making it just a matter of connectivity), that's a distinct possibility.

In Oxford's case, you buy a ticket from the "furthest" one and start/end short if you need to, surely?

Depends which way you go.

Let's take for example a journey from Bletchley to somewhere that can be accessed via London or Tamworth/Birmingham on a +ANY PERMITTED ticket, of which there are plenty of places (basically anywhere to the east and to the west). If you go via Birmingham, you can get out at MKC on the way back if you want. If you go via London, you can't. The fare is the same for most or all such journeys for all three of the main MK stations. This is plain silly, and would be solved by a Milton Keynes group.

The same thing also exists for Ormskirk, Aughton Park and Town Green to places like Manchester and beyond, where you can go via any of Preston, the Burscoughs, Kirkby or Liverpool. It used to be the case that you'd rock up at the one of your choice, offer to pay the extra fare and be let off. The trouble is that with PFs and prosecutions that doesn't work any more, so it's really useful to have it officially allowed.
 

Ianno87

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Depends which way you go.

Let's take for example a journey from Bletchley to somewhere that can be accessed via London or Tamworth/Birmingham on a +ANY PERMITTED ticket, of which there are plenty of places (basically anywhere to the east and to the west). If you go via Birmingham, you can get out at MKC on the way back if you want. If you go via London, you can't. The fare is the same for most or all such journeys for all three of the main MK stations. This is plain silly, and would be solved by a Milton Keynes group.

The same thing also exists for Ormskirk, Aughton Park and Town Green to places like Manchester. It used to be the case that you'd rock up at the one of your choice, offer to pay the extra fare and be let off. The trouble is that with PFs and prosecutions that doesn't work any more, so it's really useful to have it officially allowed.

I guess there are typo "approaches" to grouping.

-Stations where it's just different stations serving a town or city centre, and use between them is interchangeable on some routes
-Stations in a wider group where the fare just happens to be the same - which could be applied to basically any 'cluster' of fares on the network (and we'd have loads of station groups)
 

najaB

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We are ignoring the Edinburgh in the room ;).
LOL. That said, if you mean Edinburgh Waverley/Haymarket - while it doesn't exist on paper it does in real life. I'm yet to meet a Scotrail employee who doesn't treat them as interchangable.
 

Bletchleyite

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-Stations where it's just different stations serving a town or city centre, and use between them is interchangeable on some routes
-Stations in a wider group where the fare just happens to be the same - which could be applied to basically any 'cluster' of fares on the network (and we'd have loads of station groups)

Yes, probably true. FWIW I would be in support of "zonalisation" of long distance fares which would give you the latter (because if you've got a set of adjacent stations - sometimes quite a large set, too - where the fare is the same, why not offer the passenger the flexibility to choose?), but that's not really in scope for this thread.

LOL. That said, if you mean Edinburgh Waverley/Haymarket - while it doesn't exist on paper it does in real life. I'm yet to meet a Scotrail employee who doesn't treat them as interchangable.

Similarly I've never had a problem interchanging MKC and Bletchley (provided the journey would go the correct way to do this - and yes, they do ask you which way you came from) even on tickets that bar Break of Journey which should technically bar doing that as well, but it would be nice for it to be allowed properly. The Edinburgh situation baffles me.
 

Peter0124

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Argyle Street / Glasgow Central / Anderston / Charing Cross / Glasgow Queen Street / High Street should all be part of one big group. Particularly Argyle Street and Central
 

Llandudno

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I suppose there is precedent for that in Haymarket and Waverley being unofficially interchangeable for so long that it's amazing it hasn't been done formally there.

Another one, anyway - while it'd complicate routeing, the two Burscoughs might make some sense, particularly given that the Ormskirk line has no Sunday service, so it's quite plausible that someone who lives in Burscough might want to travel via Preston to Scotland but return via Wigan. Before Penalty Fares it's one that would probably be accepted locally (with the worst consequence being having to buy another ticket on board), but if you're going to get heavy with enforcement these things need writing down.
However, the real issue is the fact that in today’s working, leisure and retail environment (post Covid) that it’s ridiculous that Ormskirk-Preston and Kirkby-Wigan have no Sunday service.

Even Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog has winter Sunday trains (ok and the odd bus!) nowadays!
 

Bletchleyite

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However, the real issue is the fact that in today’s working, leisure and retail environment (post Covid) that it’s ridiculous that Ormskirk-Preston and Kirkby-Wigan have no Sunday service.

There was I believe a plan to bring one in on the former, but it fell to the wayside when Northern collapsed (pre-COVID).
 
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