Plan for cheaper HS2 Northern leg unveiled

[fat_boy_pete]

A plan for a new high-speed rail line linking Birmingham and Manchester has been unveiled, claiming to deliver most of the benefits of the scrapped northern leg of HS2 at significantly cheaper cost and with only slightly longer journey times.

The 50-mile track would run from where the HS2 line is now due to end in Staffordshire to join a planned Northern Powerhouse Rail line west of Manchester airport, under a plan unveiled by the mayors of Greater Manchester and the West Midlands.

Plans unveiled for cheaper high-speed alternative to scrapped HS2 northern leg

Report claims 50-mile line would be slightly slower and significantly cheaper but deliver most of the benefits

www.theguardian.com

 

[MerlinRail 804]

A plan for a new high-speed rail line linking Birmingham and Manchester has been unveiled, claiming to deliver most of the benefits of the scrapped northern leg of HS2 at significantly cheaper cost and with only slightly longer journey times.

The 50-mile track would run from where the HS2 line is now due to end in Staffordshire to join a planned Northern Powerhouse Rail line west of Manchester airport, under a plan unveiled by the mayors of Greater Manchester and the West Midlands.

Plans unveiled for cheaper high-speed alternative to scrapped HS2 northern leg

Report claims 50-mile line would be slightly slower and significantly cheaper but deliver most of the benefits

www.theguardian.com

As long as it delivers the necessary capacity upgrades and links up with NPR, then I’m fine with it. I feel like the eastern leg has been long forgotten though.
Longer journey times would probably mean an adjustment to the train order would be needed, maybe?

Let’s also not forget Euston and capacity there

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's David Higgins' plan for the Mayors and can hardly have been fully costed.
It look like he has reduced the spec to something like HS1 level (ie 300km/h), within the same trace as in the current parliamentary bills process.
The government will take its time to decide what to do, and there will be other options (one of which is to do nothing, at least in the short term).

About now, DfT should be publishing its six-monthly report to parliament on HS2 progress and costs.
That's normally the job of the Rail Minister (now Peter Hendy).
A lot has happened since the last report, and it is bound to shape the way the project develops, particularly on future costs.

 

[Nottingham59]

A plan for a new high-speed rail line linking Birmingham and Manchester has been unveiled, claiming to deliver most of the benefits of the scrapped northern leg of HS2 at significantly cheaper cost and with only slightly longer journey times.

The 50-mile track would run from where the HS2 line is now due to end in Staffordshire to join a planned Northern Powerhouse Rail line west of Manchester airport, under a plan unveiled by the mayors of Greater Manchester and the West Midlands.

Plans unveiled for cheaper high-speed alternative to scrapped HS2 northern leg

Report claims 50-mile line would be slightly slower and significantly cheaper but deliver most of the benefits

www.theguardian.com

the Guardian is reporting it, but is the actual report available online?

 

[Snow1964]

Seems to be on multiple news sites since about Midnight last night and all attributing to PA

The snippets suggest will be ballasted track instead of slab track and simplified junctions and spurs. Top speed reduced to 300km/h (186mph) and journeys will take 15 minutes longer than under HS2

Can't find report to link it though, so only got news version snippets

 

[fishwomp]

A plan for a new high-speed rail line linking Birmingham and Manchester has been unveiled, claiming to deliver most of the benefits of the scrapped northern leg of HS2 at significantly cheaper cost and with only slightly longer journey times.

The 50-mile track would run from where the HS2 line is now due to end in Staffordshire to join a planned Northern Powerhouse Rail line west of Manchester airport, under a plan unveiled by the mayors of Greater Manchester and the West Midlands.

So a prerequisite is that NPR also happens.

Apparently £22bn is missing - and “We are currently reviewing the position we have inherited on HS2, and will set out next steps in due course” - so expect warm fuzzies and more consultancy spending!

 

[Energy]

25-40% cheaper isn’t difficult when it doesn’t include the expensive Manchester tunnel…

It’s difficult to assess from the news sites, I’m interested in what they are proposing to do at Crewe.

 

[chris2]

Good news. Can’t quite work out how the speed difference equates to 15mins longer journey time. Over 50 miles, a reduction from 225->186 is worth only about 3mins or so?

 

[slipdigby]

Seems to be on multiple news sites since about Midnight last night and all attributing to PA

The snippets suggest will be ballasted track instead of slab track and simplified junctions and spurs. Top speed reduced to 300km/h (186mph) and journeys will take 15 minutes longer than under HS2

Can't find report to link it though, so only got news version snippets

https://www.midlandsnorthwestraillink.co.uk/

Suspiciously well hidden.

 

[Snow1964]

Good news. Can’t quite work out how the speed difference equates to 15mins longer journey time. Over 50 miles, a reduction from 225->186 is worth only about 3mins or so?

Perhaps they need to trundle through Crewe rather than doing 200+ mph on a through bypass track

 

[station_road]

25-40% cheaper isn’t difficult when it doesn’t include the expensive Manchester tunnel…

It’s difficult to assess from the news sites, I’m interested in what they are proposing to do at Crewe.

All a bit vague - this is from the full report linked to above

https://www.midlandsnorthwestrailli...-through-Connectivity-Main-Report-FINAL-1.pdf

These two connectors will need to 'join' in
Crewe. Today, Crewe is a complex web of
tracks, platforms, freight yards and sidings,
with a mix of passenger and freight trains
moving in multiple different directions at
uneven times.

Any solution to increase north-south
capacity through Crewe will be expensive
and disruptive, and requires more detailed
development work with Network Rail and
local stakeholders to resolve the deep-
seated challenges in this part of the railway.
Our approach leaves open several options,
including a dedicated a north-south bypass
for through-trains.

 

[TomTankEngine]

All a bit vague - this is from the full report linked to above

https://www.midlandsnorthwestrailli...-through-Connectivity-Main-Report-FINAL-1.pdf

Wishy washy nonsense from a private company asking for a government contract concludes that private money can make it happen and cheaper.

 

[robspaceman]

https://www.midlandsnorthwestraillink.co.uk/

Suspiciously well hidden.

What an appallingly designed report, and in desperate need of a proofreader or two as well.

 

[Nottingham59]

What an appallingly designed report,

It's intended for MPs. It needs to be simply laid out.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

the Guardian is reporting it, but is the actual report available online?

Try https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...peed-alternative-to-scrapped-hs2-northern-leg

From which

The line, rebranded as a “Midlands-North West rail link”, would largely follow the same route and be built in two phases north and south of Crewe that mirror the jettisoned HS2 schedule.

However, it could cut the budget needed by building a less future-proof railway, designed to a lower specification, with trains running at a maximum 186 mph (300kph) instead of 225mph and using ballasted track rather than concrete slabs.

 

[Elecman]

Just build the damn thing

 

[Northerngirl]

So it's basically hs2 but without the needless concrete slabs & cut and cover, get construction started I say

 

[Nottingham59]

So it's basically hs2 but without the needless concrete slabs & cut and cover, get construction started I say

It's also recommending "British" loading guage, which I assume means W12 with electrification, and dropping the UIC GC standard

 

[Fazaar1889]

So it's basically hs2 but without the needless concrete slabs & cut and cover, get construction started I say

From a quick skim read that's genuinely all I can see. Are they doing a route change? How are they handling Crewe? Manchester Station?

On that note, HS2 recommend a tunnel under Crewe, may I ask why this is?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also recommending "British" loading guage, which I assume means W12 with electrification, and dropping the UIC GC standard

Does that actually save significant money? To be fair, though, with the ability to run 400m trains there isn't much case for double deck (if it was necessary Eurostar would already be doing it), and aside from that as a passenger railway UK gauge is fine.

 

[CdBrux]

It's also recommending "British" loading guage, which I assume means W12 with electrification, and dropping the UIC GC standard

out of interest how would that save money on a new build?

 

[Transilien]

dropping the UIC GC standard

How does that make it cheaper? I thought it would be cheaper to build to an international standard. To be honest the whole of HS2 should have been built to HS1 standard in the first place, there was no need for 350kph operation on a line that doesn't even stretch longer than 300km.

 

[The Planner]

Seems to be on multiple news sites since about Midnight last night and all attributing to PA

The snippets suggest will be ballasted track instead of slab track and simplified junctions and spurs. Top speed reduced to 300km/h (186mph) and journeys will take 15 minutes longer than under HS2

Can't find report to link it though, so only got news version snippets

I wasn't aware of any confirmation phase 2 was slab anyway.

So it's basically hs2 but without the needless concrete slabs & cut and cover, get construction started I say

Depends how often you are going back in to replace the ballast and disrupt it, has the whole life cost been considered.

On that note, HS2 recommend a tunnel under Crewe, may I ask why this is?

Crewe is a bottleneck and slow, bypassing it gives more capacity.

 

[fishwomp]

Try https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...peed-alternative-to-scrapped-hs2-northern-leg

From which: "The line, rebranded as a “Midlands-North West rail link”...

By not including Wolverhampton (Coventry already left out by HS2), it needs to be called the Birmingham - Manchester link, for that is what it is. The point (edit) consequence of the (very) fast lines is that they miss out the big towns and cities that grew as the railway grew, or that the railway came to because there was industry. You either build / enhance station approaches for speed, or you don't.. each approach has winners and losers.

 

[jfowkes]

Is it cheaper considering the cost of more-or-less ripping up the existing plans and starting the design phase all over again? We have a reasonably well developed HS2 Phase 2A plan now, another 2-4 years of paying for design and engineering consultants to downgrade that plan seems a bit silly.

 

[DiscoSteve]

doesn't answer the Crewe tunnel problem, just recognises Crewe is a problem. I have no idea (though I can guess) whether there is enough through lines/platforms at Crewe to support the incoming Cheshire Connector and outgoing Staffordshire Conenctor without a tunnel or other bypass.

And agreed as above, the Staffordshire Connector should simply be HS2 Phase 2A as originally designed - call it what you like to protect political face saving, but thats what it should be, exactly as in very well developed plans - how many miles of new track was HS2 Phase 2A?

 

[SynthD]

It sounds like it has some of the original HS2 baked in (a route capable of higher speed) but then adds some fairly permanent flaws HS2 avoids (ballast incapable of higher speed).

 

[Transilien]

(ballast incapable of higher speed).

We probably don't need the higher speed though, 300kph has proven itself to work as the standard on most high speed railways in the world. What we need is capacity more than anything and this address that.

 

[HSTEd]

It appears they've just filed the serial numbers off of HS2 Phase 2, changed the scope to exclude the Manchester tunnels and then ascribed a magical reduction in cost.

I can't see this getting funded - it's just blindly hoping the Government will fall in line and turn the HS2 money back on.

Changing from slab to ballasted track is also..... I'm far from convinced that would be a good decision.

 

[Northerngirl]

We probably don't need the higher speed though, 300kph has proven itself to work as the standard on most high speed railways in the world. What we need is capacity more than anything and this address that.

Would it even be any faster, the distance between Crewe & Manchester Airport I dobut they would get up to 400kph for more that a minute, even better Birmingham & Crewe it's only going to save a couple of minutes, it's entirely on maintenance cost