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Plan to remove Croydon rail bottleneck

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Metal_gee_man

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Could really do with a sketch plan of the station, it's new entrances and their relationship with the surrounding road and pedestrian layout. Where is Caithness Walk? Is it Lansdowne walk renamed? If there is an east side entrance leading to Cherry Orchard Road, surely the shortest cut to tram and bus will be up Billinton Hill, and the most convenient way to retain this link would be to create a covered passageway along this route. Is the main entrance illustrated actually the east side one? Without a plan I remain confused and I'm disappointed this information has been omitted from the consultation material.
I think some of the OPs info suggested creating a large public square where the existing station is, covering the gap between the old main entrance building and to the new station entrance 150m north connecting George St to the new station.
 
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Peter Sarf

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Could really do with a sketch plan of the station, it's new entrances and their relationship with the surrounding road and pedestrian layout. Where is Caithness Walk? Is it Lansdowne walk renamed? If there is an east side entrance leading to Cherry Orchard Road, surely the shortest cut to tram and bus will be up Billinton Hill, and the most convenient way to retain this link would be to create a covered passageway along this route. Is the main entrance illustrated actually the east side one? Without a plan I remain confused and I'm disappointed this information has been omitted from the consultation material.
The new central ("Northern") pedestrian bridge is meant to eventually have an exit on to Cherry Orchard road I seem to recall. But that would not be a much shorter route than walking up Dingwall Road on the West side. However, immediately to the West of the station foot print, there is a pedestrian walk way along the new buildings to the new foot bridge so parralel but slightly shorter than the Dingwall Road route.

Planners seem to have a belief that the important destination from East Croydon station is the Whitgift shopping centre directly to the West of the station Central foot bridge along Lansdowne road. This is to become the next Westfield shopping centre if it ever gets built - we are at the planning blight stage where shops are closing down. Everything is being distorted to encourage this so i doubt the existing interchange with trams or buses is an important consideration in their eyes.

Indeed a new turning loop for the trams is to be built allowing trams from the East to turn right/North along Dingwall Road and West along Lansdowne road. This is straight towards the Whitgift/Westfield shopping centre and deprives the rest of central Croydon of those trams. It then picks up the last part of the existing clockwise loop (along Wellesley road) back towards East Croydon station. This new loop is for the tram routes to/from the East of Croydon that do not go West of Croydon towards Wimbledon. This is apparently to reduce pressure on the central Croydon tram loop but it still uses the last part of the loop and worse still introduces a conflicting junction as the trams from the East turn across the Westbound tram track to enter Dingwall Road. So I have my doubts and it leads me to believe that everything is being distorted to encourage/suit Westfield.
 

Peter Sarf

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Could really do with a sketch plan of the station, it's new entrances and their relationship with the surrounding road and pedestrian layout. Where is Caithness Walk? Is it Lansdowne walk renamed? If there is an east side entrance leading to Cherry Orchard Road, surely the shortest cut to tram and bus will be up Billinton Hill, and the most convenient way to retain this link would be to create a covered passageway along this route. Is the main entrance illustrated actually the east side one? Without a plan I remain confused and I'm disappointed this information has been omitted from the consultation material.

The article says "Access to this main entrance would be available from the tram and bus stations, from Caithness Walk and from Cherry Orchard Road. A new northern concourse with an improved entrance will be created, accessible from Lansdowne Road."

Lansdown road points straight at the recent/new footbridge which is currently fairly CENTRAL along the platforms. that bridge will become even further South once the station has moved further North !. Now 100m is about four coaches so to me that puts the recent/new footbridge almost completely at the South end. It talks of a new Northern concourse there. So the 'Northern concourse' is a bad description/name.
 

MarkyT

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The article says "Access to this main entrance would be available from the tram and bus stations, from Caithness Walk and from Cherry Orchard Road. A new northern concourse with an improved entrance will be created, accessible from Lansdowne Road."

Lansdown road points straight at the recent/new footbridge which is currently fairly CENTRAL along the platforms. that bridge will become even further South once the station has moved further North !. Now 100m is about four coaches so to me that puts the recent/new footbridge almost completely at the South end. It talks of a new Northern concourse there. So the 'Northern concourse' is a bad description/name.
This is why we need a station layout plan. At the moment the flimsy description of entrances and pedestrian flows is not sufficient and is confusing. I accept it may not be completely settled and some aspects may be under negotiation with associated property developments nearby, but something more detailed that that provided so far is necessary if they want to build support, as apart from a few who change trains there everyone using East Croydon station walks in or out of it by these means, including tram and bus interchanges.
 

Peter Sarf

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This is why we need a station layout plan. At the moment the flimsy description of entrances and pedestrian flows is not sufficient and is confusing. I accept it may not be completely settled and some aspects may be under negotiation with associated property developments nearby, but something more detailed that that provided so far is necessary if they want to build support, as apart from a few who change trains there everyone using East Croydon station walks in or out of it by these means, including tram and bus interchanges.

As I live in Croydon and have used the station a lot I have an unfair advantage. But I am making assumptions. Fairly valid ones. But a proper layout plan is indeed what we need. A picture tells a thousand words. The lack of a proper layout makes me think they do not (yet) know what they are doing.

But I can guess that it is all to fit in with, and so encourage, the Westfield development. Croydon council will look favourably on any plan that helps keep the Westfield development alive.

On a side note. A lot of residential development (flats) has happened on either side of the station site. I wonder how long before the railway has to bend over backwards to fit in with peoples' expectations of a quiet night/evening ?.
 

MarkyT

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On a side note. A lot of residential development (flats) has happened on either side of the station site. I wonder how long before the railway has to bend over backwards to fit in with peoples' expectations of a quiet night/evening ?.
Well it is an existing railway so people knew the nature of the environment and its noise levels when they bought/rented. Much of the value of the location also lies in its outstanding transport convenience; you can almost fall out of bed straight onto you fast train to central London! I could see additional construction noise being an ongoing bone of contention though. What's the level of occupancy in those developments currently? I bet they're pretty pricey, even for a shoebox.
 

mr_jrt

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It is crazy that that those high rises on the west side were permitted when it was blatantly obvious something like this was going to come along, unless of course they knew along they wanted to move the station north so having obstacles blocking something further south actually helped the master plan. :) Should be nice when its all done though, regardless.
 

MarkyT

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It is crazy that that those high rises on the west side were permitted when it was blatantly obvious something like this was going to come along, unless of course they knew along they wanted to move the station north so having obstacles blocking something further south actually helped the master plan. :) Should be nice when its all done though, regardless.
The station isn't moving significantly. The new island platform on the west side was always going to be slightly further north, and the space has been safeguarded there for years. The change from earlier plans seems to be a rebuild of the other platforms to be fully inline with the new island, by extending at the north end and shortening at the south.
 

Peter Sarf

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The station isn't moving significantly. The new island platform on the west side was always going to be slightly further north, and the space has been safeguarded there for years. The change from earlier plans seems to be a rebuild of the other platforms to be fully inline with the new island, by extending at the north end and shortening at the south.
That is my take. Additionally the existing platforms 1&2 would have to be shifted North unless the new platforms 1&2 shared a track with the platform 3 (currently platform 1). That would be a bottleneck. Either that or widen the railway under George Street and trams and I bet they don't touch that.

Incidentally I wonder if they will re-number all the platforms or will they simply call the new ones 0a and 0b ?.
 

swt_passenger

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There’s a slight element of exaggeration here, I think. The article by “ianvisits” suggests the station’s position is being adjusted about 100m to the north, and then describes that as being “rebuilt on a different site”? But there’s still going to be about 200m overlap.

Well by some analysis you could say the the new Reading was rebuilt about 100m to the west of the original station, (comparing old footbridge and new transfer deck positions). But no one really describes that as being rebuilt on a different site...
 

edwin_m

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I think it is likely that the only reason for moving the platforms further North is to allow for a wider station throat if the George Street bridge/deck is not replaced. It would also get rid of the end of the low numbered platforms with the sharpest curve.
I think you're right. However looking at the cutting south of George Street there's only room for maybe one more track before you get into land take and probably demolishing buildings. I'm not sure if the George Street and concourse bridges also allow this amount of space but even if they don't, replacing them won't give any more than that. I seem to recall also there's a Tramlink substation lurking on the "vacant" trackbed under the Hazelden Road bridge.
The station isn't moving significantly. The new island platform on the west side was always going to be slightly further north, and the space has been safeguarded there for years. The change from earlier plans seems to be a rebuild of the other platforms to be fully inline with the new island, by extending at the north end and shortening at the south.
Yes, and apparently adding another platform in the process. The rebuilding will also allow the tracks to be closed up between platforms 2 and 3, making use of the space there (presumably a "through road" at some time in the past when the platforms were shorter).
 

Peter Sarf

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I think you're right. However looking at the cutting south of George Street there's only room for maybe one more track before you get into land take and probably demolishing buildings. I'm not sure if the George Street and concourse bridges also allow this amount of space but even if they don't, replacing them won't give any more than that. I seem to recall also there's a Tramlink substation lurking on the "vacant" trackbed under the Hazelden Road bridge.

Yes, and apparently adding another platform in the process. The rebuilding will also allow the tracks to be closed up between platforms 2 and 3, making use of the space there (presumably a "through road" at some time in the past when the platforms were shorter).

Yes the cutting to the South of George Street already has vertical sides iirc. EDIT - but I now notice a strip of green land alongside. Makes sense as I guess the current fifth track was squeezed in some time in the past.

I have often assumed there might have been a middle road between platforms 2 & 3 in the past but what bothered me was there was no room for it at the very South - so moving the platforms further North would enable that end to be used. At the North end I cannot remember for sure but I don't think there is a gap at that end however there are engineers sidings and the old signal box to be had. Maybe they would be all swallowed up by the new platforms 1 & 2 though.
 
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Peter Sarf

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As the consultation opens tomorrow I would assume there will be much more detailed plans available then

Oh right. Suppose I have a duty for the rest of us then. As a local resident I should be privy to more info (fingers crossed).

And a quick google gets me to
a) this from Croydon Council.
b) ...... and this doc (dated 2011 but best I can do)
c) and this from Network Rail

Notes for (b).
Page 7 sort of informative view.
Page 18 in b shows a green strip down the West side of the line (bottom of aerial photo) - so maybe I am wrong and that is a sloping cutting side waiting for a sixth track. I do recall though that the five tracks were enough and if there were only four tracks but each feeding two of the eight platforms then things would work better.
Page 20 brings back memories of how it looked in 1988. It was remarkably similar to the black and white photo. Reminds me - the ramps down to the platforms were there already and only had the roof replaced and the sides tarted up.
Page 22 indicates that the old platform 1&2 might not be being shoved North and so there must be space to be made under the concourse and George Street. Also shows nicely that the current/new bridge is bang in the middle of the platforms.
Page 46 nice plan f the current/new bridge.
Page 62 shows progression of platform changes and additions. Indictes numbering will be 1, 1a, 2, 2a, 3, 4, 5 & 6 WTF. It also infers 7 tracks from the South until the finish when it reverts to 6 !.
 
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edwin_m

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I have often assumed there might have been a middle road between platforms 2 & 3 in the past but what bothered me was there was no room for it at the very South - so moving the platforms further North would enable that end to be used. At the North end I cannot remember for sure but I don't think there is a gap at that end however there are engineers sidings and the old signal box to be had. Maybe they would be all swallowed up by the new platforms 1 & 2 though.
The gap between the 2 and 3 tracks closes up at the north end. I assume there was at one time a through road here which joined one or both of these platform tracks, but was removed when (or before) they were extended northwards to their current length. I wonder if the south end of the P2 track was further west at one time and the platforms may have ended at the ramps- the P2 ramp seems to be offset - but I'm not sure if this would have been enough for a through road to join south of the platform ends. Maybe just a siding?
 

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The gap between the 2 and 3 tracks closes up at the north end. I assume there was at one time a through road here which joined one or both of these platform tracks, but was removed when (or before) they were extended northwards to their current length. I wonder if the south end of the P2 track was further west at one time and the platforms may have ended at the ramps- the P2 ramp seems to be offset - but I'm not sure if this would have been enough for a through road to join south of the platform ends. Maybe just a siding?
NLS historic OS mapping is your friend:
 

MarkyT

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The master plan shows a public realm pedestrian link alongside the railway between the new east side entrance and the George Street bridge along Billinton Hill (current taxi rank I think?). As long as this is covered and remains at high level from the station bridge, this would be the shortest convenient route to tram and bus as part of the desired 'civilised transport interchange'
 

Bald Rick

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It is ironic that, since i moved to Croydon in 1988, the railway land to the West of the station remained unused/derelict until the last five years. Now the railways need it back !.

It is true that the space for two more platforms is not available as far South as the current platforms so a new platforms 1&2 island would have to start further North. But it seems likely that the deck carrying the concourse, trams and George Street over the railway needs replacing if more than six tracks are needed anyway. Another feature of the South end of the platforms is that the platforms are more curved at that end. There is space between the lines of platforms 2 and 3 by the way.

I think it is likely that the only reason for moving the platforms further North is to allow for a wider station throat if the George Street bridge/deck is not replaced. It would also get rid of the end of the low numbered platforms with the sharpest curve.

The development was built specifically in agreement with NR, and specifically with sufficient land left to enable the additional platforms and tracks. I saw the paperwork. This was all done well over a decade ago. It’s called forward planning.

I think the problem is the ramps are legally just a bit too steep to be suitable for wheelchair access, and can't be re-engineered in situ to incorporate the flat landings required every so often, so while it's been possible to retain them thus far as part of an existing station, not changing them as part of such a major reconstruction would be untenable, and in any case for such a height difference and busy footfall a secondary method such as a lift would be demanded by building regs anyway.

Yes, the ramps are too steep.



Wonder what sort of timeframe we'd be looking at? If it goes ahead I'll probably be dead before it's finished.....

Within a decade.


It is crazy that that those high rises on the west side were permitted when it was blatantly obvious something like this was going to come along, unless of course they knew along they wanted to move the station north so having obstacles blocking something further south actually helped the master plan. :) Should be nice when its all done though, regardless.

See above. It wasn’t crazy at all, it was planned and agreed by the railway.
 

Peter Sarf

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And by the 1930s the general form of the current layout of the station had been established:
That goods shed to the West of the platforms became the temporary booking hall and concourse whilst the George Street entrance was re-built (circa 2000 ?).

I feel that the current platforms 1&2 were squeezed in on the West side after the other four platforms. They certainly make a tighter bend to get under George Street.
 

Peter Sarf

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The development was built specifically in agreement with NR, and specifically with sufficient land left to enable the additional platforms and tracks. I saw the paperwork. This was all done well over a decade ago. It’s called forward planning.

...........

I have seen how wide the strip of land is. I presume the main reason for moving the platforms North is to fit the station throat in without interfering with the George Street bridge and concourse. Is that correct ?.
 

Bald Rick

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I have seen how wide the strip of land is. I presume the main reason for moving the platforms North is to fit the station throat in without interfering with the George Street bridge and concourse. Is that correct ?.

Partly. Also to get platforms wide enough to cope with passenger numbers. And straight platforms are much preferred.
 

edwin_m

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Looks very much as if the main station at that time was a shorter version of platforms 3-5 and the westernmost platform (approximately the line of platform 2) was shorter still and perhaps for a shuttle on the minuscule Central Croydon branch.
And by the 1930s the general form of the current layout of the station had been established:
And that link confirms that the platforms originally started north of the ramps, and this left enough room for the through road to squeeze through the south end (though perhaps the track spacing wouldn't be acceptable today). The widening towards the north end actually accommodated a split of the through road into two tracks, which appears totally pointless as they re-combine only a short distance further north. Perhaps some sort of short loop for parking a station pilot?
 

MarkyT

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Perhaps some sort of short loop for parking a station pilot?
Highly plausible. With so many loading docks, goods facilities and the sorting office in the near vicinity there were probably express van attachments and detachments taking place frequently so I imagine a pilot loco stationed there and able to use the through road to quickly get to either end of the platforms would be very handy.
 

paul1609

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The gap between the 2 and 3 tracks closes up at the north end. I assume there was at one time a through road here which joined one or both of these platform tracks, but was removed when (or before) they were extended northwards to their current length. I wonder if the south end of the P2 track was further west at one time and the platforms may have ended at the ramps- the P2 ramp seems to be offset - but I'm not sure if this would have been enough for a through road to join south of the platform ends. Maybe just a siding?
The through road joined the platform 3 road, if you watch the 1953 London to Brighton in 4 mins video on You tube London to Brighton Train Journey: 1953 its at about 1min40. it had gone by the 1983 "Intercity" run https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahabRHUYO4A
 

edwin_m

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The through road joined the platform 3 road, if you watch the 1953 London to Brighton in 4 mins video on You tube London to Brighton Train Journey: 1953 its at about 1min40. it had gone by the 1983 "Intercity" run https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahabRHUYO4A
It would make sense that it disappeared in the Victoria re-signaling in the mid-1970s, which introduced the current layout in the Croydon and Windmill Bridge areas and if I recall correctly also swapped the useage of the tracks around south of Croydon.
 
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