Plan to remove Croydon rail bottleneck

[edwin_m]

A still from the video showing East Croydon station layout (Note the high-level walkways either side of the railway between new south concourse and George Street bridge for bus/tram interchange)

Thanks for posting that. It's more radical than I previously thought. As far as I can tell the large concourse to the right (south) is about where the northern bridge is now (the road bottom left appears to be Lansdown Road) and in fact the big bridge girder appears to remain within that building. The second concourse and platform access near the middle of the platforms is totally new and there is a third bridge, but judging by lack of accessibility features that's just an evacuation exit. It does make it a fair walk from the trams though (off screen to the right).

 

[Horizon22]

It will be interesting to see what phases this would be planned to be done in as no services from E. Croydon will be a bit of a non-starter. Imagine phased built much like the way London Bridge was done with certain lines / routes closed for 6/12/18 months at a time (for example no Victoria services for 6 months). I doubt W. Croydon could adequately cope with the extra passengers and is constrained enough on the P1/3 side.

Moving the concourse away from immediately outside George Street is probably a good idea as the trams can get very crowded at peak times to Elmers End/Beck Junction / New Addington and passenger flow is very poor. Sure there's some scope for retail as well.

 

[hwl]

It will be interesting to see what phases this would be planned to be done in as no services from E. Croydon will be a bit of a non-starter. Imagine phased built much like the way London Bridge was done with certain lines / routes closed for 6/12/18 months at a time (for example no Victoria services for 6 months). I doubt W. Croydon could adequately cope with the extra passengers and is constrained enough on the P1/3 side.

Moving the concourse away from immediately outside George Street is probably a good idea as the trams can get very crowded at peak times to Elmers End/Beck Junction / New Addington and passenger flow is very poor. Sure there's some scope for retail as well.

The plan in brief:
Start with sorting Norwood Junction which would allow more turn back options.
ECR: one platform face at time starting from the west (p1) so 5 platforms available most of the time...
Windmill Bridge Junction area adding extra tracks to the west first.
Windmill Bridge Road bridge replacement need to be done early on.

 

[Horizon22]

The plan in brief:
Start with sorting Norwood Junction which would allow more turn back options.
ECR: one platform face at time starting from the west (p1) so 5 platforms available most of the time...
Windmill Bridge Junction area adding extra tracks to the west first.
Windmill Bridge Road bridge replacement need to be done early on.

Oh yes I forgot about the Norwood Junction plans, that ties in nicely.

At what stage are the additional platforms planned, after the other 6 are moved?

 

[Bald Rick]

The plan in brief:
Start with sorting Norwood Junction which would allow more turn back options.
ECR: one platform face at time starting from the west (p1) so 5 platforms available most of the time...
Windmill Bridge Junction area adding extra tracks to the west first.
Windmill Bridge Road bridge replacement need to be done early on.

Correct. It’s explained in brief on the website.

Oh yes I forgot about the Norwood Junction plans, that ties in nicely.

At what stage are the additional platforms planned, after the other 6 are moved?

At the end! Essentially 5 platforms are in use throughout (barring occasional more disruptive closures for signalling commissioning etc), once the first five platforms are built and in use then the others follow.

 

[Horizon22]

Correct. It’s explained in brief on the website.

At the end! Essentially 5 platforms are in use throughout (barring occasional more disruptive closures for signalling commissioning etc), once the first five platforms are built and in use then the others follow.

So it does, tells me off for not reading! With only 5 platforms, will be interesting to see what services GTR (or whatever comes out of the proposed break-up of GTR) plan to run through without stopping - I'm not sure how frequent Milton Keynes terminators are any more in the regular timetable - as that will be the most effective option. Worked okay with London Bridge works. I would guess more people needing to change at Gatwick would be the best option if long-distance don't stop or Norwood Junction for local services (tied in with aforementioned improvements there).

 

[hwl]

So it does, tells me off for not reading! With only 5 platforms, will be interesting to see what services GTR (or whatever comes out of the proposed break-up of GTR) plan to run through without stopping - I'm not sure how frequent Milton Keynes terminators are any more in the regular timetable - as that will be the most effective option. Worked okay with London Bridge works. I would guess more people needing to change at Gatwick would be the best option if long-distance don't stop or Norwood Junction for local services (tied in with aforementioned improvements there).

Signalling (overlap) issues in the up direction with P4/5 mean that while it might have 6 platforms at the moment you can't fully utilise all of them fully.

 

[Mollman]

A Network Rail video illustrating the proposals: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...-main-line/unblocking-the-croydon-bottleneck/

A still from the video showing East Croydon station layout (Note the high-level walkways either side of the railway between new south concourse and George Street bridge for bus/tram interchange):

Slightly off topic but I have to say that is one of the best videos of its type I've seen for a long time. Good to see them using actual Southern, ThamesLink and LO trains rather than generic ones often seen in these type of videos.

 

[Bald Rick]

So it does, tells me off for not reading! With only 5 platforms, will be interesting to see what services GTR (or whatever comes out of the proposed break-up of GTR) plan to run through without stopping - I'm not sure how frequent Milton Keynes terminators are any more in the regular timetable - as that will be the most effective option. Worked okay with London Bridge works. I would guess more people needing to change at Gatwick would be the best option if long-distance don't stop or Norwood Junction for local services (tied in with aforementioned improvements there).

It will be 5 tracks as well as 5 platforms, so I’d be surprised if anything additional runs through. Without stopping. What is likely to happen is a small number of suburban services turn back at Norwood Jn. This theoretically could include the MK service, but it will be a while before decisions on that are made.

 

[Bald Rick]

Slightly off topic but I have to say that is one of the best videos of its type I've seen for a long time. Good to see them using actual Southern, ThamesLink and LO trains rather than generic ones often seen in these type of videos.

Agreed.

 

[cle]

So is the old P7 bay at Norwood Junction dead now?

That seemed to make a lot of sense - was it the Beckenham Junction train it was going to take on? Clear that platform for the Bakerloo

 

[Bald Rick]

So is the old P7 bay at Norwood Junction dead now?

Dead as that squirrel.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I would guess that the MKC to ECR service will either be curtailed at CLJ (platform space allowing) or extended through to GTW to allow for 5 platform to be fully utilised at ECR during the works

 

[edwin_m]

What is likely to happen is a small number of suburban services turn back at Norwood Jn. This theoretically could include the MK service, but it will be a while before decisions on that are made.

How would it get there?

 

[JonathanH]

How would it get there?

I can think of one way but it isn't cleared for passengers.

 

[Bald Rick]

How would it get there?

Turn left at Balham, via Crystal Palace, turn right at Bromley Junction.

 

[mirodo]

I would guess that the MKC to ECR service will either be curtailed at CLJ (platform space allowing) or extended through to GTW to allow for 5 platform to be fully utilised at ECR during the works

It could also terminate at South Croydon, as used to be the case.

 

[MarkyT]

I can think of one way but it isn't cleared for passengers.

Turn left at Selhurst. An early signalling stage could make that chord suitable for passenger trains and allow reversing in platfrom 1, but not a good place for a reversal

Turn left at Balham, via Crystal Palace, turn right at Bromley Junction.

But how to reverse at Norwood Jn?

It could also terminate at South Croydon, as used to be the case.

Not ideal to block the middle bidirectional road during the reversal.

Terminate at Selhurst, then run empty stock via chord to depot and reverse in siding next to carriage washer road.
Anoher option might be to do a big anti-clockwise loop. Left at Selhurst, via chord (upgraded for passenger), through Platfrom 1 at Norwood Jn, then turn left to Crystal Palace and back to Balham.

 

[Sunset route]

I would guess that the MKC to ECR service will either be curtailed at CLJ (platform space allowing) or extended through to GTW to allow for 5 platform to be fully utilised at ECR during the works

The rumours from under the juice in our office is that as pre scheme works they will be installing as scissor crossover on (Selhurst depot) Arrival and Departure roads just clear of Selhurst platforms to allow for turn back services.

 

[MarkyT]

The rumours from under the juice in our office is that as pre scheme works they will be installing as scissor crossover on (Selhurst depot) Arrival and Departure roads just clear of Selhurst platforms to allow for turn back services.

Those crossovers form part of the final layout so it makes sense to lay them in early as 'enabling works'.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Nice video.

But I wish they would get out of the habit of background music as it makes it hard to concentrate and is irrelevant. Background music makes it harder for those with hearing difficulties - its just background noise.

I wonder if trains really do head towards Croydon from Selhurst wrong line ?. See near the beginning of the video as it zooms into the triangle at/after 0:39.

 

[Bald Rick]

But how to reverse at Norwood Jn?

Bidi into an up platform. Unlikely in my view, but definitely doable.

The rumours from under the juice in our office is that as pre scheme works they will be installing as scissor crossover on (Selhurst depot) Arrival and Departure roads just clear of Selhurst platforms to allow for turn back services.

I think that’s more likely.

 

[Sunset route]

But how to reverse at Norwood Jn?

Bidi into an up platform. Unlikely in my view, but definitely doable.

The last time that subject raised its head it stumbled on either complicated slotting arrangements between VASC Panel 3 and TBASC Panel 1a or transferring control of parts of VASC panel 3 to TBASC Panel 1a and then the project died as too difficult and costly for any gains to be made.

 

[Bald Rick]

The last time that subject raised its head it stumbled on either complicated slotting arrangements between VASC Panel 3 and TBASC Panel 1a or transferring control of parts of VASC panel 3 to TBASC Panel 1a and then the project died as too difficult and costly for any gains to be made.

That was because the last time it was proposed, it was on the old signalling

 

[MarkyT]

Bidi into an up platform. Unlikely in my view, but definitely doable.

You'd need a new facing crossover on the Crystal Palace line. That could also be a handy feature for getting stock into the depot from that direction with less conflict.

 

[RichJF]

The way the video/website says the plan will work is slightly like London Bridge (only smaller). Platforms rebuilt from one side of the station to the next, with flyovers & grade separation installed.
Having commuted on this line for 6 years & still using it fairly regularly I would welcome any proposal sort out this spaghetti of tracks.

 

[cle]

Dead as that squirrel.

What was the rationale for dropping the platform 7 project? Seemed logical and not too expensive - and solved a problem in advanced of the bigger works which will take much longer to bear fruit.

 

[hwl]

What was the rationale for dropping the platform 7 project? Seemed logical and not too expensive - and solved a problem in advanced of the bigger works which will take much longer to bear fruit.

It is the first bit you would need to demolish to start the main Norwood Junction station works and it also needs signalling work (no signalling currently) which is also needed for the main Norwood Junction work. Huge amount for very short term at best.

The main Norwood Junction scheme effectively has it as a though platform, moving from 2 Up and 3 down tracks to 3 Up and 3 down (only platforms on 2 each way so only 2 islands, 1 replacing the current P2/3 island (P2 not used) the other replacing the P6/7 island)

 

[cle]

Ahh ok, and then two fast lines with no platform faces?

Wasn't it also quite a spot for suicides? If so, that would be helped.

 

[Horizon22]

One of the platform islands (P2/3) is essentially useless as it only has one Up Track and isn't used, so it's a much more sensible newer scheme overall. 2/3 is incredibly narrow currently.