Planned 387 and 377 cascades to Southern and Southeastern in 2025

[JammyJames08]

Hi everyone.

We’ve been told that 13 class 377s will be coming over to SE shortly, this is to replace more networkers.

I guess they’re to replace 465s on some of the Ashford/gillingham runs?

Would 52 coaches be enough to replace the remaining 465/9 fleet? And some 2 cars?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Hi everyone.

We’ve been told that 13 class 377s will be coming over to SE shortly, this is to replace more networkers.

I guess they’re to replace 465s on some of the Ashford/gillingham runs?

Would 52 coaches be enough to replace the remaining 465/9 fleet? And some 2 cars?

Hiya, sorry just to confirm who is “we” and told by who?

 

[JammyJames08]

We as in SE employees by our management

 

[brad465]

This is not a complete surprise, it was speculated in response to the 387s being cascaded to Southern after the 379s move over to GN.

13x will not be enough to send all the 465/9s off to store without a fleet (and service/capacity) cut, IIRC 24x 465/9s are still in operation. The 28x or so 466s also make clearing out all the MetCam units difficult.

I would say Tunbridge Wells' diagrams would be a more likely target than Gillingham runs, but 13x wouldn't be enough to completely see Networkers off that route. Ashford could easily be seen off though as there were a few years without them before.

Once again though it shows how shoddily SE have been treated here: instead of getting the new fleet order they've been longing to sort out their metro fleet, they keep getting "odds and sods" from other operators to chip away at the oldest/least reliable units and limp along.

 

[Stephen42]

This is not a complete surprise, it was speculated in response to the 387s being cascaded to Southern after the 379s move over to GN.

13x will not be enough to send all the 465/9s off to store without a fleet (and service/capacity) cut, IIRC 24x 465/9s are still in operation. The 28x or so 466s also make clearing out all the MetCam units difficult.

I would say Tunbridge Wells' diagrams would be a more likely target than Gillingham runs, but 13x wouldn't be enough to completely see Networkers off that route. Ashford could easily be seen off though as there were a few years without them before.

Once again though it shows how shoddily SE have been treated here: instead of getting the new fleet order they've been longing to sort out their metro fleet, they keep getting "odds and sods" from other operators to chip away at the oldest/least reliable units and limp along.

Southeastern had an option for vinyl wrapping class 377s in a tender so was always more than speculation.

While there are 24x 465/9s they are not diagrammed that intensively. There are only 16 diagrams more in the common pool than there were when 456/0s and 456/1s diagrammed separately to the other 465s. If there are still 28x 466 left they are used even less with just 18 466 diagrams in the latest FOI release.

With the 2x 707 and 13x 377 joining recently the former possibly both in service as several morning peak only diagrams and the latter if pooled with the existing 377s maybe 12 in service diagrams. That would leave a gap of only two units or six vehicles which is a relatively small cut. If could run 21 466 diagrams then it be equal and the 8-car routes 465 + 466 + 466 formations are workable.

SE are going for a £1bn plus train order which will never be quick to do via public procurement. Even once a deal is agreed it will be several years till those new trains will be available in public service. With the new trains likely to be metro focused with fewer seats and more standing room the 20 year old trains will be preferred by some on the mainline routes compared to any new trains anyway.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This is not a complete surprise, it was speculated in response to the 387s being cascaded to Southern after the 379s move over to GN.

13x will not be enough to send all the 465/9s off to store without a fleet (and service/capacity) cut, IIRC 24x 465/9s are still in operation. The 28x or so 466s also make clearing out all the MetCam units difficult.

I would say Tunbridge Wells' diagrams would be a more likely target than Gillingham runs, but 13x wouldn't be enough to completely see Networkers off that route. Ashford could easily be seen off though as there were a few years without them before.

Once again though it shows how shoddily SE have been treated here: instead of getting the new fleet order they've been longing to sort out their metro fleet, they keep getting "odds and sods" from other operators to chip away at the oldest/least reliable units and limp along.

707's won the golden spanner more most reliable modern EMU so not so sure they haven't benefited there.

 

[Kite159]

SE are going for a £1bn plus train order which will never be quick to do via public procurement. Even once a deal is agreed it will be several years till those new trains will be available in public service. With the new trains likely to be metro focused with fewer seats and more standing room the 20 year old trains will be preferred by some on the mainline routes compared to any new trains anyway.

Add on a few more years if the train order goes to Alstom with various delays & faults.

 

[fgwrich]

707's won the golden spanner more most reliable modern EMU so not so sure they haven't benefited there.

Further on this, the win was technically while they were based at Wimbledon (Award Ceremony was tonight) but Steve White has said they continue to work with the same teams and Siemens for maintenance requirements.

Add on a few more years if the train order goes to Alstom with various delays & faults.

Now now, they aren't Bombardier anymore

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This is not a complete surprise, it was speculated in response to the 387s being cascaded to Southern after the 379s move over to GN.

13x will not be enough to send all the 465/9s off to store without a fleet (and service/capacity) cut, IIRC 24x 465/9s are still in operation. The 28x or so 466s also make clearing out all the MetCam units difficult.

I would say Tunbridge Wells' diagrams would be a more likely target than Gillingham runs, but 13x wouldn't be enough to completely see Networkers off that route. Ashford could easily be seen off though as there were a few years without them before.

Once again though it shows how shoddily SE have been treated here: instead of getting the new fleet order they've been longing to sort out their metro fleet, they keep getting "odds and sods" from other operators to chip away at the oldest/least reliable units and limp along.

Surely can't move until Southern have the corresponding no. of 387's ex GB as they are tight for stock now

 

[brad465]

SE are going for a £1bn plus train order which will never be quick to do via public procurement. Even once a deal is agreed it will be several years till those new trains will be available in public service. With the new trains likely to be metro focused with fewer seats and more standing room the 20 year old trains will be preferred by some on the mainline routes compared to any new trains anyway.

They put a notice out in 2022, and unless something has been agreed in secret and with unit building underway, this hasn't got anywhere yet 2 years on.

Surely can't move until Southern have the corresponding no. of 387's ex GB as they are tight for stock now

Yes I expect May next year will be the move. This December may have been the original plan but clearly there will not be enough 379s in service to make this possible.

 

[43074]

In this fortnight’s Rail it says all 379s are now on lease. Early morning and evening Letchworths will see them first then they will release 387s which can run dual voltage services. The exGWR 387s are staying on GN.

mods note - split from this thread

The ex GWR units move to Southern for December (along with 387128/129) so Rail is incorrect. Believe one of the ex GWR units is already south of the river as it was receiving maintenance at Stewart's Lane Depot.

 

[Stephen42]

They put a notice out in 2022, and unless something has been agreed in secret and with unit building underway, this hasn't got anywhere yet 2 years on.

Yes I expect May next year will be the move. This December may have been the original plan but clearly there will not be enough 379s in service to make this possible.

It's moved slower than many hoped, the formal Invite to Negotiate came out in May this year to the shortlisted bidders. That's going to be a weighty document with equally weighty responses and will take time to for the bidders to submit plus Southeastern to evaluate. This is a key part of the procurement process and needs to be done correctly for any award to survive legal challenge. If your award process is thrown out you usually need to start all over again.

Public train procurement of this scale is measured in years, see Crossrail, Thameslink, HS2 etc. The most recently published target date was Q2 2025 for the award.

 

[03_179]

The exGWR 387s are staying on GN.

No they are not.
172 is at Selhurst already.
The other two are coming with 2x 387/1s before Xmas.

 

[brad465]

Now that we know Southeastern are getting 13x 377s from Southern, is it known how many 387s in total will leave GN to go to Southern? Presumably it will be at least 13, but hopefully more than that so Southern at least get a capacity boost from current levels.

 

[physics34]

Now that we know Southeastern are getting 13x 377s from Southern, is it known how many 387s in total will leave GN to go to Southern? Presumably it will be at least 13, but hopefully more than that so Southern at least get a capacity boost from current levels.

25 was the number I heard. Yet again, that's internal rumours... us employees don't get to hear much either. Can we change the thread name to include 387s?

 

[St. Paddy]

It will be interesting to see whether or not the GWR / ex-GWR 387s are to be fitted with Alstom ETCS as per 387101.

IF they stay, they’ll have to be fitted

 

[brad465]

25 was the number I heard. Yet again, that's internal rumours... us employees don't get to hear much either. Can we change the thread name to include 387s?

Perhaps to say something like "379s to Great Northern and related cascades"? Given the cascade involved, it's very difficult to talk about one class/move without others also being included in discussion.

 

[Failed Unit]

I am sure I saw an unbranded white 387 in Potters Bar last week, so not sure if it is ready to move South.

 

[physics34]

I am sure I saw an unbranded white 387 in Potters Bar last week, so not sure if it is ready to move South.

That's likely to be 128 or 129

 

[Sutton in Ant]

As the electrostar rolling stock cascades is going to be starting very soon. I just want to ask this. I keep reading on some of the Railway websites that 377s can do multiple workings with the 379s that is going to in service soon with GN. I know this will probably won't happen by why doesn't Southern give up 6 377/2s and put in digital signaling and GN give up the 387/3s 6 of them and If it was to happen? Then GN will have 36 4 car rolling stocks and Southern will have the entire 387 that was in use with GN?

 

[Zeremony]

Southeastern’s fleet upgrade continues with the introduction of 13 more, air conditioned, class 377s transferring from GTR increasing this fleet to 36.

Between now and the start of the new Southeastern timetable, Southeastern will receive the first two additional Class 377 units following a joint agreement with Govia Thameslink Railway.

A further 11 trains will enter passenger service before December 2025.

They will mainly be used to replace the older Networkers on the Maidstone East and Tunbridge Wells line

Further work to improve the existing Metro fleet will be announced shortly and a procurement process to replace the fleet of Networkers with new or upgraded trains continues.

https://newsroom.southeasternrailwa...nues-with-the-introduction-of-improved-trains

 

[brad465]

Interesting that 2 of them are coming over imminently, does this mean Southern are also getting some 387s before the end of the year too?

 

[physics34]

Wonder if it's easy to make these 377/1s work with the 377/5s. Hopefully just a software update.

Interesting that 2 of them are coming over imminently, does this mean Southern are also getting some 387s before the end of the year too?

5 by December 14th, is the educated assumption.

 

[Peter0124]

Realtime Trains | 5O87 2022 Hornsey E.M.U.D. to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D | 29/11/2024

Real-time train running information for 5O87 2022 departure from Hornsey E.M.U.D. to Stewarts Lane T&R.S.M.D on 29/11/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Are these 387s being transferred from Hornsey to Stewarts Lane tomorrow? Same service ran 2 weeks ago aswell.

 

[brad465]

Wonder if it's easy to make these 377/1s work with the 377/5s. Hopefully just a software update.

Easily. Southeastern had 2x 377/1s for a few years, which returned to Southern when all the 455s were withdrawn. They were seen in 8-car formations with a 377/5 and were obvious as they still had Southern green livery applied.

 

[physics34]

Easily. Southeastern had 2x 377/1s for a few years, which returned to Southern when all the 455s were withdrawn. They were seen in 8-car formations with a 377/5 and were obvious as they still had Southern green livery applied.

Ah yes forgot about them

 

[gmaguire]

https://newsroom.southeasternrailwa...nues-with-the-introduction-of-improved-trains

That’s a very enthusiast-friendly article. They even let you download the photo.

 

[Fincra5]

Not sure about 377/1s having better acceleration than a Networker!

 

[brad465]

Not sure about 377/1s having better acceleration than a Networker!

They have a higher top speed, although they may not be able to utilise that much. On the SEML mainline to Tunbridge Wells, it's got no advantage to Orpington. Then Orpington-Sevenoaks is 80-90mph but not a huge distance while involving a prominent climb. The 100mph top speed to Tonbridge doesn't help when calling at Hildenborough, then Tonbridge-Tunbridge Wells is max 60mph. On the Maidstone East line, you get 90mph from Chislehurst Jct to Swanley, then 70-80mph after, but again the frequent calling pattern limits the higher top speed utilisation.

But of course SE will be selling the reliability and interior comfort, although from experience of 377/5s, I'd say the latter needs serious improvement, especially compared to the interiors of 375s.

Their formation options will also be one to watch, you get some 10-car diagrams to Tunbridge Wells still, which gets well used in the peak when Orpington is served. Assuming only 4-car 377s come across, 10-car won't be an option, although 12-car will be, but will there be enough units to make the latter?

 

[JonathanH]

The 377 move to Southeastern does seem to make some strategic sense particularly with regard to Networker replacement. By moving away from having Networkers on the longer distance outer suburban services, it should mean that the full Networker replacement can be a dedicated metro unit. Clearly it could also mean not having to procure as much new rolling stock.