Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can someone say if this project has now been officially formally cancelled? I think it was mentioned as such by an RMT spokesman in a local TV interview earlier this week.

 

[bluenoxid]

Not yet AFAIK. The TWAO application is still in.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Can someone say if this project has now been officially formally cancelled? I think it was mentioned as such by an RMT spokesman in a local TV interview earlier this week.

No-one can say it is formally cancelled or not, officially or not. Any rumours one way are the other are just that and should be ignored.

Why on earth would an RMT spokesperson suddenly be the font of all wisdom?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why on earth would an RMT spokesperson suddenly be the font of all wisdom?

Agreed, but why would he have mentioned it as a cancelled project during his interview if it still is not formally cancelled?

 

[PR1Berske]

Agreed, but why would he have mentioned it as a cancelled project during his interview if it still is not formally cancelled?

Because the RMT needs to say things like "Everything is cancelled" on inflation day in August, as a rule

 

[mrbluelips]

Given the response from the Mayor of Manchester (and others) following the partial cancellation of the electrification of the Liverpool to Manchester line, I would imagine the government would be reluctant to announce a cancellation of the Manchester Piccadilly expansion any time soon.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I wouldn't be surprised to see it cancelled. AFAIK it is currently going through the "test" for value for money.

 

[Chester1]

The third option is the project is approved but with a later start date, perhaps 2024 to push it into CP7. The current resignalling project will increase capacity from 8tph + 2tph terminating at Oxford Road to 12 + 2. In addition, the waiting rooms and passenger information kiosk are being moved off the island platform (Id pressume through extended the upstairs waiting area). Removing platform seats in addition to the waiting rooms would also help. I use the platforms a lot and its obvious that people wait for trains there for substantial periods of time when they shouldn't be alowed onto the platforms until 5 minutes before their train leaves. Platforms 15 and 16 will be needed at some point in then next few years but they are not are not required yet.

The RMT put the worst spin on anything a Tory government says, does or may do. I wouldn't listen to their statement. It seems pretty obvious that no decision has been made.

 

[Bletchleyite]

its obvious that people wait for trains there for substantial periods of time when they shouldn't be alowed onto the platforms until 5 minutes before their train leaves.

The setup is not such that that could realistically be enforced. But removing seats and "windbreaks" like the buildings will both make more space and mean people are less likely to choose to hang around there.

 

[Chester1]

The setup is not such that that could realistically be enforced. But removing seats and "windbreaks" like the buildings will both make more space and mean people are less likely to choose to hang around there.

I am sure I have seen it enforced before during major overcrowding but your right about windbreaks, its inhospitable during bad weather even with the current facilities! A two side 200m (ish) island platform being used by 3-6 car trains at a frequency of 12tph can be made to work. Once the new capacity has run out platforms 15 and 16 are a necessity but I am not sure they will happen for a while yet.

 

[snowball]

following the partial cancellation of the electrification of the Liverpool to Manchester line

Have you heard something the rest of us haven't?

 

[Chester1]

Have you heard something the rest of us haven't?

Ignoring that he named the wrong line, its not even true. Manchester to Leeds electrification is under review and has not been cancelled. Unfortunately lots of people who don't like the Tories seem to be using it as an excuse to complain rather than wait for the outcome, perhaps to claim it as a victory for Labour / Andy B when the project eventually gets approved. Its entirely possible that the whole line will be electrified and platforms 15 and 16 pushed into the long grass, rather than the other way around.

 

[snowball]

Can someone say if this project has now been officially formally cancelled? I think it was mentioned as such by an RMT spokesman in a local TV interview earlier this week.

I gather Grayling made negative remarks about it (and also about trans-Pennine electrification) in the Financial Times on July 20th (the day when the MML, Cardiff-Swansea and Windermere were cancelled). Apparently he suggested it would be possible to use technology to squeeze trains closer together on the existing platforms - a revival of the Digital Railway hype which I thought had been toned down lately?

Unfortunatly the FT is behind a paywall. I thought I had registered (free) to read a few articles per month but that seems to have gone away.

 

[Bevan Price]

I am sure I have seen it enforced before during major overcrowding but your right about windbreaks, its inhospitable during bad weather even with the current facilities! A two side 200m (ish) island platform being used by 3-6 car trains at a frequency of 12tph can be made to work. Once the new capacity has run out platforms 15 and 16 are a necessity but I am not sure they will happen for a while yet.

In theory, 12 tph might work. In practice, I expect things to become worse.

1. There are still too many 2 coach trains.

2. Dwell times increase to as much as 2 - 3 minutes at peak hours, whilst passengers alight from overcrowded short trains, and then passengers try to board trains that are already well-loaded. and also at peak hours, this effect can occur at both Piccadilly & Oxford Road.

3. A single delayed arrival can have a knock-on effect for at least the next 15 - 20 minutes.

 

[xotGD]

I suppose taking away the waiting room and seats will be described as 'enhancing the customer experience'.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

In theory, 12 tph might work. In practice, I expect things to become worse.

1. There are still too many 2 coach trains.

2. Dwell times increase to as much as 2 - 3 minutes at peak hours, whilst passengers alight from overcrowded short trains, and then passengers try to board trains that are already well-loaded. and also at peak hours, this effect can occur at both Piccadilly & Oxford Road.

3. A single delayed arrival can have a knock-on effect for at least the next 15 - 20 minutes.

Fixing point 1 would help fix all three

 

[YorkshireBear]

Fixing point 1 would help fix all three

Quite and we should remember the new longer trains being purchased by Northern and TPE.

HOWEVER. End doors on all TPE services on the island platform may hinder.

 

[XDM]

I suppose taking away the waiting room and seats will be described as 'enhancing the customer experience'.

Or "increasing passenger capacity" as per refurbished trains with seats confiscated.

 

[Chester1]

I suppose taking away the waiting room and seats will be described as 'enhancing the customer experience'.

The TPE franchise agreement mentions the waiting rooms being moved not removed. Extending the waiting area above platforms 12 would be a good replacement. None of it is ideal but £150m+ should not be spent until the capacity is neccessary. It would be very convenient to have it soon but that is not the same thing.

Quite and we should remember the new longer trains being purchased by Northern and TPE.

HOWEVER. End doors on all TPE services on the island platform may hinder.

Many already have end doors. There should be few 2 coach services using the platform soon so dwell times shouldn't be too bad. I can't think of a service that should regularly run with two cars in the long term apart from some ATW. The Liverpool stoppers will still terminate at Oxford Road.

 

[CdBrux]

would taking away the 2 stopping at Oxford Road allow 14 to go through Piccadilly as well? The project for 15 and 16 closes the terminating platform at Oxford Road and this partly enables lengthening of the Oxford Road platforms.

What, in terms of trains per hour, was the objective of platforms 15 and 16? And where are they coming from and going to and does that need other interventions elsewhere?

 

[Bertie the bus]

its obvious that people wait for trains there for substantial periods of time when they shouldn't be alowed onto the platforms until 5 minutes before their train leaves.

Rubbish. The upstairs ‘waiting area’ is a dreary, depressing place with large numbers of people marching through there going to/coming from P13/14 so if you wait in it there is a decent chance of regularly getting barged into. Additionally, if you leave it too late to get to the platform, with the people alighting from the large number of arrivals and the length of the platforms, there is a good chance you will miss your train.

 

[Chester1]

would taking away the 2 stopping at Oxford Road allow 14 to go through Piccadilly as well? The project for 15 and 16 closes the terminating platform at Oxford Road and this partly enables lengthening of the Oxford Road platforms.

What, in terms of trains per hour, was the objective of platforms 15 and 16? And where are they coming from and going to and does that need other interventions elsewhere?

No. The Oxford Road stoppers can only be extended if the number of through platforms at Piccadilly is the same as at Oxford Road. The intention would then be to remove Oxford Road platform 5 to allow the 4 through platforms to be extended westwards. I think it was 18-20tph. That will most probably be necessary in several years but not immediately.

Rubbish. The upstairs ‘waiting area’ is a dreary, depressing place with large numbers of people marching through there going to/coming from P13/14 so if you wait in it there is a decent chance of regularly getting barged into. Additionally, if you leave it too late to get to the platform, with the people alighting from the large number of arrivals and the length of the platforms, there is a good chance you will miss your train.

It would be reasonable to expect a complete redesign of the waiting area if it is extended. Probably with an envitable extra retail / cafe unit. It is a risk but one that is easily avoid if people pay attention to the time. It is a reasonable solution in the context of an estimated cost of £150m+ for two new platforms.

 

[IanXC]

I suppose taking away the waiting room and seats will be described as 'enhancing the customer experience'.

It's exactly the same solution to exactly the same problem that Birmingham New Street used to suffer from. Taking away the platform waiting areas will improve the customer experience by reducing crowding at platform level, waiting facilities can easily be provided at the footbridge level.

 

[mrbluelips]

Ignoring that he named the wrong line, its not even true. Manchester to Leeds electrification is under review and has not been cancelled. Unfortunately lots of people who don't like the Tories seem to be using it as an excuse to complain..

Apologies, you are quite right, I named the wrong line.

I don't hate the Tories.

 

[Mollman]

There also needs to be improvement to the access points down to the platforms. The South end is the worst with the escalator and narrow stairs meaning conflict between alighting passengers and those heading down to the platform.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Fixing point 1 would help fix all three

Would be a great idea to create a new thread for Northern strengthening plans in the coming months since it'll be hot topic with 319s coming on stream and freeing up DMUs

Back to Piccadilly itself, combined entrances and exits should maybe separated to cope with peak flows

 

[The Planner]

I would be betting against it happening myself. They are expecting miracles out of that corridor in my view even with just 13 and 14.

 

[PR1Berske]

I tell you this, Piccadilly needs 15/16 far more than it needs HS2.

 

[snowball]

I tell you this, Piccadilly needs 15/16 far more than it needs HS2.

However, if the 15/16 project gets dropped, there's plenty of time for it to be revived before HS2 gets there.

 

[PR1Berske]

However, if the 15/16 project gets dropped, there's plenty of time for it to be revived before HS2 gets there.

We need focused and targeted improvements in the North *now*. I see dates like 2024 for completion of 15/16 and wonder how many years ago they would have been built in a comparable London station.