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Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.

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js1000

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I disagree, even with Virgin Trains London to Manchester, I know there are 3 an hour, so don't worry about the timetable (although I do know the times) - just get to Euston and catch the next train. I remember when it was just one an hour and that wasn't my attitude.
The thing is on the TPE routes the Leeds - Manchester section is the core of the trans-Pennine routes. So one train will be for Liverpool, the next for The Airport and then Piccadilly; so reducing the trains eliminates end destinations and makes them less attractive.
True. I understand the temptation to create 'through' services to increase the number of direct services and it becomes more attractive to passengers who don't have to change trains.

However the punctuality on the Styal Line to the Airport is terrible at present. They've extended the service through Manchester onto Liverpoo Lime Street (previously just a shuttle into Piccadilly) and changed it to a skip-stop system for the commuter stations along the line but it's pot luck when it turns up. Capacity is stretched to the limit and there is no way of four tracking it (ever) due to it being on an embankment and residential along much of the length. Platforms 15/16 will help westbound trains through Manchester. Eastbound trains (assuming most go onto the airport to avoid cutting across the throat) are going to be limited somewhat by trains on the Styal Line to the airport.

I think HS2 line from Manchester to Manchester Airport could become like the Heathrow Express. That line will alleviate the some pressure through Manchester and onto the Airport. The problem is that's still 15 years away.
 
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fowler9

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Not sure Heathrow suffers that much from having direct services from next to no where. I don't think PIA and Singapore etc. only get enough passengers from Manchester because there is a direct service from Cleethorpes or wherever. Are people in Leeds going to use Heathrow if they can't get a train direct to Manchester Airport when they want to go to Singapore?
 

Altfish

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I was due to fly to China from Heathrow along with my good lady. Luckily we found a flight from Manchester to Amsterdam and from there to Beijing, so it didn't happen.
But, I was looking at ways to get to Heathrow, my first choice was rail; but getting from Euston to Heathrow with large suitcases dissuaded me. We ended up planning to drive to a hotel nearby and use their shuttle minibus to the airport.
Direct rail services to other parts of the country would benefit Heathrow, I suspect the abandoned link to HS2 will eventually be reinstated.
 

B&I

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Not sure Heathrow suffers that much from having direct services from next to no where. I don't think PIA and Singapore etc. only get enough passengers from Manchester because there is a direct service from Cleethorpes or wherever. Are people in Leeds going to use Heathrow if they can't get a train direct to Manchester Airport when they want to go to Singapore?


Yes, but having the direct long-distance services which none of the other northern airports have is a crucial competitive advantage in the medium haul market. Those transcontinental flights you mention can then be used to tell the rest of us how lucky we are that our entire railway network, present and future, is to be subordinated to the goal of serving Manchester Airport
 
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edwin_m

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I was due to fly to China from Heathrow along with my good lady. Luckily we found a flight from Manchester to Amsterdam and from there to Beijing, so it didn't happen.
But, I was looking at ways to get to Heathrow, my first choice was rail; but getting from Euston to Heathrow with large suitcases dissuaded me. We ended up planning to drive to a hotel nearby and use their shuttle minibus to the airport.
Direct rail services to other parts of the country would benefit Heathrow, I suspect the abandoned link to HS2 will eventually be reinstated.
There are several problems with direct service to Heathrow. It isn't on the HS2 route so it would need a separate service to a branch, and as the demand for Heathrow was predicted to be about 8% of that to central London it would be difficult to serve a good range of destinations by rail from Heathrow. There's also no above ground space for a station there so it would have to be a hugely costly underground high speed station in an area already riddled with tunnels, and a HS station would probably need further transit links to connect to all terminals. Hence the change to Crossrail at Old Oak seems a sensible compromise, as the station there should have step-free access and lifts to facilitate changing trains with luggage.

It's arguable that with footbridge improvements a change at Piccadilly should be no worse than in the future at Old Oak. The difference with Manchester is that the direct airport service can be provided relatively easily by extending/diverting trains that would otherwise terminate somewhere else in the Manchester area. In many cases that would be Victoria, leaving airport passengers with a change of stations which is roughly comparable to accessing Heathrow from the main London termini (except Paddington) today.
 

sprunt

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The value of the direct services from Manchester Airport to a variety of destinations isn't only to domestic passengers travelling from the north of England, of course - it also makes those destinations more attractive to overseas visitors. I'm currently looking at booking a weekend away somewhere in the Netherlands later this year, and it's going to be somewhere with a direct service from Schipol - which is a lot of places. I visited Utrecht a couple of years ago, which I'd probably not have done had the access been so straightforward. A town or city with a direct connection to a major airport is going to be a more attractive destination for overseas visitors that one without.
 

Grumpy

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Are people in Leeds going to use Heathrow if they can't get a train direct to Manchester Airport when they want to go to Singapore?
More likely to fly from Leeds via Amsterdam. Much more pleasant and convenient than travelling via Heathrow
 

fowler9

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The value of the direct services from Manchester Airport to a variety of destinations isn't only to domestic passengers travelling from the north of England, of course - it also makes those destinations more attractive to overseas visitors. I'm currently looking at booking a weekend away somewhere in the Netherlands later this year, and it's going to be somewhere with a direct service from Schipol - which is a lot of places. I visited Utrecht a couple of years ago, which I'd probably not have done had the access been so straightforward. A town or city with a direct connection to a major airport is going to be a more attractive destination for overseas visitors that one without.
Like Cleethorpes or Middlesborough?
 

Altfish

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Like Cleethorpes or Middlesborough?
Cleethorpes is actually also the link to Sheffield and Doncaster
Middlesbrough does though seem a one off, only Yarm and Middlesbrough being new locations but it does tick Leeds and York and Northallerton(?)
 

Chester1

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The value of the direct services from Manchester Airport to a variety of destinations isn't only to domestic passengers travelling from the north of England, of course - it also makes those destinations more attractive to overseas visitors. I'm currently looking at booking a weekend away somewhere in the Netherlands later this year, and it's going to be somewhere with a direct service from Schipol - which is a lot of places. I visited Utrecht a couple of years ago, which I'd probably not have done had the access been so straightforward. A town or city with a direct connection to a major airport is going to be a more attractive destination for overseas visitors that one without.

I have chosen on that basis too, 1 train + 1 flight + 1 train are enough changes! I think some posters here don't seem to accept that Manchester Airport is significantly more important than Liverpool, Leeds or Newcastle which are basically just short haul budget airline airports. Manchester Airport is the third biggest in UK after Heathrow and Gatwick and it has a range of long haul flights. I am sure Newcastle's daily Dubai service is locally important but Manchester has 3 per day to Dubai, and 1 a day to Abu Dhabi, Oman, Qatar, Singapore, Beijing, Hong Kong and several cities in the US. Later this year services are launching to Mumbai and Addis Ababa. If Heathrow's third runway project stalls it will be the primary beneficiary too. Whether it deserves the current services is a slightly different topic though!
 

Grumpy

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Of course it does, I've traveled it, often! Sorry.
Nothing wrong with your suggestion. If physically feasible it would offer a pressure relieving alternative route from Victoria to Piccadilly, albeit missing Oxford road.
 

sprunt

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Like Cleethorpes or Middlesborough?

Well, no, but it isn't the extra stops at the Cleethorpes or Middlesbrough ends of the line that are standing accused of destroying the transport system of the north of England, is it?
 

fowler9

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I have chosen on that basis too, 1 train + 1 flight + 1 train are enough changes! I think some posters here don't seem to accept that Manchester Airport is significantly more important than Liverpool, Leeds or Newcastle which are basically just short haul budget airline airports. Manchester Airport is the third biggest in UK after Heathrow and Gatwick and it has a range of long haul flights. I am sure Newcastle's daily Dubai service is locally important but Manchester has 3 per day to Dubai, and 1 a day to Abu Dhabi, Oman, Qatar, Singapore, Beijing, Hong Kong and several cities in the US. Later this year services are launching to Mumbai and Addis Ababa. If Heathrow's third runway project stalls it will be the primary beneficiary too. Whether it deserves the current services is a slightly different topic though!
Well yeah. How many direct trains from across the country does Heathrow get and still get by with? If you live in central London or on the way to the airport from there I guess you get a direct service.
 

fowler9

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Well, no, but it isn't the extra stops at the Cleethorpes or Middlesbrough ends of the line that are standing accused of destroying the transport system of the north of England, is it?
And what? Why do they need a direct Manchester Airport link?
 

ivanhoe

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And what? Why do they need a direct Manchester Airport link?
The trains are important though for through flows from Teeside to Northwest and South Humberside to Northwest. The end destination is not the raison d'etre for most passengers. Sheffield which is served from Cleethorpes is a large City with slow links to North West. It's been well used when I've been on it. Don't quite understand what the issue is in going to Ringway.
 

Foxcover

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When you look at the effect the Ordsall Chord is having on so many services and journeys, and the effect the airport service is having on places like eg Gatley’s local services (incredibly Gatley has no Piccadilly service in the peak between 0705 and 0747 - that should make anyone who knows the place take a sharp intake of breath) it makes you realise afresh the distortion the Airport destination is creating on travel & travel strategy in the region. I just had a look at the Styal line local timetable for the first time in years having lived there a while ago, and was really surprised how it had degraded.
 

Chester1

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When you look at the effect the Ordsall Chord is having on so many services and journeys, and the effect the airport service is having on places like eg Gatley’s local services (incredibly Gatley has no Piccadilly service in the peak between 0705 and 0747 - that should make anyone who knows the place take a sharp intake of breath) it makes you realise afresh the distortion the Airport destination is creating on travel & travel strategy in the region. I just had a look at the Styal line local timetable for the first time in years having lived there a while ago, and was really surprised how it had degraded.

I think part of the problem is that it was expected to be a pancea for Manchester's rail issues. For £100m it was reasonable expenditure simply to provide a link between Victoria and Oxford Road + Piccadilly. Perhaps another option would be reopen the missing section of the viaduct to allow services from Bolton/Wigan and Liverpool via Chat Moss to run to Victoria into platforms 1-4 of Piccadilly.
 

modernrail

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As an northerner living in London to help sort these southerners out, I am back up north regularly for work (real work southerners, not speculation based betting that damages the real economy). I have been through Manchester travelling to Liverpool Lime Street, Manchester Airport, Leeds etc several times over the last couple of months. Every journey has fallen apart in Manchester.

I personally do not understand how anybody thought it was remotely feasible to de-couple the building of the chord and the extra platforms at Piccadilly. Piccadilly platforms 13/14 have been a critical point of failure for the whole northern network for ages. That aside from the overcrowding and exceptionally poor customer information and experience for such heavily used, multi-destination platforms (possibly one of the most diverse set of destinations for one set of platforms in the country?)

I get the purpose of the chord, and I broadly agree with the logic, but not without massive improvement on platforms 13/14 (as in a new platforms 15/16). Even more frustratingly, the land is sitting there ready for new structures - a relatively rare luxury for city-centre projects.

Last week I picked up a 35 minute delay from Leeds between Ashton and the Airport, and my train terminated at platform 13 and so I had to change on to another train. I then watched 5 trains arrive and terminate, some planned and some un-planned, hundreds of people stuffed onto a crap little bit of infrastructure. The crowds grew, people became stressed and then an Airport stopper arrived and not everybody could get on. This is what happens at those platforms, lots of trains, lots of destinations, lots of soaking up of sins on other parts of the network. It is basically an oversoaked sponge for the whole northern network and with 2 platforms it will always, always, act as a critical point of failure, even more so with the chord. Any statistician would be able to work out that there are just too many variables at play for any capacity theory to hold good. Thameslink has spent billions on dealing with a similar but less variable set of circumstances. It has a uniform fleet, 1 (poor) operator, less destinations (even with new additions) expensive station infrastructure, many more platform staff and a state of the art signalling system and a 2 way flow. People also tend to get off and leave the stations - in Manchester, many people change at these platforms. Central Manchester is now a giant railway roundabout, and that has all sorts of implications.

We had a northern and transpennine train dispatcher shouting at each other 'is this one of yours'; 'I don't know - think so' before trains arrived and when I asked if the next train might make it to the airport he called was control they actually said...'how late is it on the board?' - '6 minutes' - 'er, maybe'.

Anybody on here who says 13/14 can cope in any circumstances in living in fantasy land - even before the chord. There is always a point when one has to say theory is lovely but reality and the importance of a particular piece of network mean that you build N+1, maybe even N+2 for such an important bit of the network.

I see this as a massive failing of the whole system. DfT take full responsibility as they commissioned the chord but NR come a close second. TfN should have spotted this one earlier on and should have been banging on the DfT's door for a couple of years now. Also, people need to understand that delay analysis is not likely to throw up the whole picture. There is a real ripple problem here - platforms 13/14 are often not the cause of delays, but they add further delay and spreads them to other services. It is like a cholera laden water pump (as well as a sponge).

Things will get worse very soon. Longer TP trains will mean the notional separation of trains on 13/14 to either end of the respective platform will fall apart, meaning even more crush on the platforms and confusion for people getting off the train as all the platform infrastructure presumes the seperation. The whole thing is a predictable and unforgivable farce that shows the total lack of intelligence never mind experience from all involved in the decision making.

For me, the first 3 projects that should be commissioned on resilience for the northern network are re-signalling the core TP route between Huddersfield (maybe even Leeds - not sure of the capability of that section) and Manchester - the reversal of the bloody stupid re-alignment at Stalybridge which somehow didn't see the chord coming (and docking of NR pay for this one) but most importantly, platforms 15 and 16. I would arrange 13-16 so that you have:
- all airport services on 13 (unless somebody could tell me that there are any express airports that overtake stoppers once they have left Manchester);
- all other eastbound on 14;
- all express westbound on 15;
- all stoppers on 16.

and big screens making this really clear.

There are also some short term fixes that will help:

- big screens along the length of the platform flashing in bold colours things to support more detailed screens like 'Airport train' - 'train terminates here - do not board' - 'next train on this platform is to.....' - 'information change - next train is to x and not x - stay on the platform for x'. I would employ a dedicated person to be on the platform liaising with control and putting these bespoke messages out.
- make sure infrastructure is improved to acknowledge longer trains;
- making it very clear what a train length is a where to stand to reduce dwell times;
- if there is one set of platforms to re-introduce porters on the platform to help people get their luggage off it is this one. Lots of older people, airport passenger etc. This all extends dwell times.

Basically, current 13/14 need to pull every dwell time reduction trick out of the book (except the shouting at fare paying passengers one which the default at the moment) and then the planners need to launch a competition to work out how to build the new infrastructure without needing to close current 13/14 except for a few blockades, not easy but no more complicated than lots that has been done at London Bridge.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service was to be axed but was reprieved because it was extremely unpopular. There’s quite a few people using it. I use it regularly as far as Sheffield but many do use it to Manchester Airport.

Perhaps I do not follow the logic of what you say as it seems strange that particular service was reprieved because it was extremely unpopular.
 

HowardGWR

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It's a pity we could not have a manager respond to modernrail's interesting posting. I wonder if any read this thread?
 

MarkyT

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As an northerner...

Great summary of the situation and some workable suggestions for the short term. I think one great attraction of the 15/16 project is that the most of the track and platform element construction would be entirely clear of the existing facilities, so should cause minimal (additional) disruption to services running through 13/14. Clearly there will be some significant alterations to the existing viaduct at the west end which will have impact, and track and signalling at both ends will have to be tied in eventually during some major possession, but overall it's a comparatively simple job 'railway wise' even if the new structures themselves may be quite complex and expensive. Oxford Road platform lengthening is more intrusive to the existing railway I expect, but as you say the very best brains in stage planning, as per London Bridge remodelling, should be employed to help minimise disruption.

I disagree with suggestions from others that NR should have stalled building the Ordsall chord just because they hadn't got the go ahead for the other works required for the full Northern Hub portfolio. We must all surely remember the difficulty faced from a heritage perspective and all the negotiations and third party payments that were involved to push it through and defeat the Mark Whitby judidicial review etc. To throw that all away waiting for other elements to be approved, cancelling contracts etc would probably have killed the scheme entirely in my view. Compensation, renegotiation of construction contracts, opportunity for opponents of the scheme to regroup and mount new challenges etc, it doesn't bear thinking about. Whether the chord should have been used at all beyond some kind of token service is an entirely different question, but I think with rail in the north in such chaos due to so many factors it is just not possible to identify one single element as a particular cause, although the traffic levels in the Castlefield corridor mean that is where much of the pain is felt and much cross contamination between services occurs. Make no mistake it is the DfT and its SoS that have been responsible for delaying this much needed work, which I believe should have been in advanced stages of construction by now.
 

Chester1

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As an northerner living in London to help sort these southerners out, I am back up north regularly for work (real work southerners, not speculation based betting that damages the real economy). I have been through Manchester travelling to Liverpool Lime Street, Manchester Airport, Leeds etc several times over the last couple of months. Every journey has fallen apart in Manchester.

I personally do not understand how anybody thought it was remotely feasible to de-couple the building of the chord and the extra platforms at Piccadilly. Piccadilly platforms 13/14 have been a critical point of failure for the whole northern network for ages. That aside from the overcrowding and exceptionally poor customer information and experience for such heavily used, multi-destination platforms (possibly one of the most diverse set of destinations for one set of platforms in the country?)

I get the purpose of the chord, and I broadly agree with the logic, but not without massive improvement on platforms 13/14 (as in a new platforms 15/16). Even more frustratingly, the land is sitting there ready for new structures - a relatively rare luxury for city-centre projects.

Last week I picked up a 35 minute delay from Leeds between Ashton and the Airport, and my train terminated at platform 13 and so I had to change on to another train. I then watched 5 trains arrive and terminate, some planned and some un-planned, hundreds of people stuffed onto a crap little bit of infrastructure. The crowds grew, people became stressed and then an Airport stopper arrived and not everybody could get on. This is what happens at those platforms, lots of trains, lots of destinations, lots of soaking up of sins on other parts of the network. It is basically an oversoaked sponge for the whole northern network and with 2 platforms it will always, always, act as a critical point of failure, even more so with the chord. Any statistician would be able to work out that there are just too many variables at play for any capacity theory to hold good. Thameslink has spent billions on dealing with a similar but less variable set of circumstances. It has a uniform fleet, 1 (poor) operator, less destinations (even with new additions) expensive station infrastructure, many more platform staff and a state of the art signalling system and a 2 way flow. People also tend to get off and leave the stations - in Manchester, many people change at these platforms. Central Manchester is now a giant railway roundabout, and that has all sorts of implications.

We had a northern and transpennine train dispatcher shouting at each other 'is this one of yours'; 'I don't know - think so' before trains arrived and when I asked if the next train might make it to the airport he called was control they actually said...'how late is it on the board?' - '6 minutes' - 'er, maybe'.

Anybody on here who says 13/14 can cope in any circumstances in living in fantasy land - even before the chord. There is always a point when one has to say theory is lovely but reality and the importance of a particular piece of network mean that you build N+1, maybe even N+2 for such an important bit of the network.

I see this as a massive failing of the whole system. DfT take full responsibility as they commissioned the chord but NR come a close second. TfN should have spotted this one earlier on and should have been banging on the DfT's door for a couple of years now. Also, people need to understand that delay analysis is not likely to throw up the whole picture. There is a real ripple problem here - platforms 13/14 are often not the cause of delays, but they add further delay and spreads them to other services. It is like a cholera laden water pump (as well as a sponge).

Things will get worse very soon. Longer TP trains will mean the notional separation of trains on 13/14 to either end of the respective platform will fall apart, meaning even more crush on the platforms and confusion for people getting off the train as all the platform infrastructure presumes the seperation. The whole thing is a predictable and unforgivable farce that shows the total lack of intelligence never mind experience from all involved in the decision making.

For me, the first 3 projects that should be commissioned on resilience for the northern network are re-signalling the core TP route between Huddersfield (maybe even Leeds - not sure of the capability of that section) and Manchester - the reversal of the bloody stupid re-alignment at Stalybridge which somehow didn't see the chord coming (and docking of NR pay for this one) but most importantly, platforms 15 and 16. I would arrange 13-16 so that you have:
- all airport services on 13 (unless somebody could tell me that there are any express airports that overtake stoppers once they have left Manchester);
- all other eastbound on 14;
- all express westbound on 15;
- all stoppers on 16.

and big screens making this really clear.

There are also some short term fixes that will help:

- big screens along the length of the platform flashing in bold colours things to support more detailed screens like 'Airport train' - 'train terminates here - do not board' - 'next train on this platform is to.....' - 'information change - next train is to x and not x - stay on the platform for x'. I would employ a dedicated person to be on the platform liaising with control and putting these bespoke messages out.
- make sure infrastructure is improved to acknowledge longer trains;
- making it very clear what a train length is a where to stand to reduce dwell times;
- if there is one set of platforms to re-introduce porters on the platform to help people get their luggage off it is this one. Lots of older people, airport passenger etc. This all extends dwell times.

Basically, current 13/14 need to pull every dwell time reduction trick out of the book (except the shouting at fare paying passengers one which the default at the moment) and then the planners need to launch a competition to work out how to build the new infrastructure without needing to close current 13/14 except for a few blockades, not easy but no more complicated than lots that has been done at London Bridge.

I agree with your list of short term solutions but there is one that is missing - running fewer trains through 13 and 14. The jump from 8tph to 12tph was too much. If 15 and 16 are built then there needs to be the capacity to run an extra 4tph to the Airport or Stockport or turn them around. The only way to achieve this without new infrastructure would be to run fewer services into the main shed which wrecks the business case. I am of the opinion that the priority needs to be to choose a scheme for Castlefield Junction and safeguard the land before its too late. We are probably only a couple of years away from grade seperation being impossible because of too much development nearby. Its not the current bottleneck but it will be the permanent one soon.
 

Greybeard33

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Things will get worse very soon. Longer TP trains will mean the notional separation of trains on 13/14 to either end of the respective platform will fall apart, meaning even more crush on the platforms and confusion for people getting off the train as all the platform infrastructure presumes the seperation. The whole thing is a predictable and unforgivable farce that shows the total lack of intelligence never mind experience from all involved in the decision making.
By my calculations a TPE MK5a + Class 68 set is roughly 132m long (4*22.2m trailers + 1*22.4m DT + 1*20.5m 68). A Class 397 EMU is only 118m.

The SA gives the Piccadilly platform lengths as:
P13 Up 277m
P13 Down 277m
P14 Up 265m
P14 Down 266m.
More than twice the length of the train in all cases.

So, with permissive working, will a TPE train not be able to occupy the platform at the same time as another, shorter, train?
 

Jonny

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By my calculations a TPE MK5a + Class 68 set is roughly 132m long (4*22.2m trailers + 1*22.4m DT + 1*20.5m 68). A Class 397 EMU is only 118m.

The SA gives the Piccadilly platform lengths as:
P13 Up 277m
P13 Down 277m
P14 Up 265m
P14 Down 266m.
More than twice the length of the train in all cases.

So, with permissive working, will a TPE train not be able to occupy the platform at the same time as another, shorter, train?

I thought that it was a 'two block' system with the platforms effectively divided in two by the signals, meaning that if the first train stops at the front then a second can draw into the other block. However, there may be issues with overlap etc. However, a permissive 'calling on' signal aspect could still be given, and the second train stops at the first of: either the first train or the mid-platform block signal. Of course that could itself go permissive...
 

swt_passenger

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Perhaps I do not follow the logic of what you say as it seems strange that particular service was reprieved because it was extremely unpopular.
I did a double take too; I expect he possibly wrote “it” meaning “the decision to withdraw” rather than the service. But a good example where posters could usefully read back exactly what they’ve written before posting...
 

mandub

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I thought that it was a 'two block' system with the platforms effectively divided in two by the signals, meaning that if the first train stops at the front then a second can draw into the other block. However, there may be issues with overlap etc. However, a permissive 'calling on' signal aspect could still be given, and the second train stops at the first of: either the first train or the mid-platform block signal. Of course that could itself go permissive...

We can occupy the platforms with another train already in the front section. But there isn't much point unless it's to terminate the service, change ends and go back out the way you came.
 

AndrewE

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... I am of the opinion that the priority needs to be to choose a scheme for Castlefield Junction and safeguard the land before its too late. We are probably only a couple of years away from grade separation being impossible because of too much development nearby. Its not the current bottleneck but it will be the permanent one soon.
It occurs to me (rather late in the day) that if double-decking the Oxford Rd to Piccadilly section would have been a useful fill-in between high-level platforms built to work with grade-separated junctions at each end, then could the Ordsall Chord have been built so that it cleared (and didn't break) the access to the Liverpool Rd station/museum site? After all they would never need the clearance for OLE! Is it too late to put it back? I guess so, as I'm sure the new bridge will not be able to cope with track climbing in a southerly direction.
 
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