Making the passenger environment even less pleasant is an interesting new solution to the problems caused by chronic underinvestment
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Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.
- Thread starter Xenophon PCDGS
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Making the passenger environment even less pleasant is an interesting new solution to the problems caused by chronic underinvestment
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The matter of "incompetent" security guards as you describe is one that should show up in any contract performance monitoring and be addressed accordingly by ensuring that the training in such matters is of a sufficiently high enough standard to enable such staff to perform such duties. Those security staff found wanting in that respect should be withdrawn for immediate retraining.
Easier said than done (sadly) when you’re dealing with - as I understand it - poorly paid agency staff with a high turnover rate. You’re never going to get well trained staff that way. The alternative, of course, isn’t so cheap.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The obvious resolution is that the contract with the agency be terminated, as occurred in the case of G4S.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You’ve met the muppets at Picc?
Altfish
Member
I was on P14 this morning waiting for a Newcastle train - delayed by a Blackpool train that was in the platform for ages.
The staff on the platform were ok at keeping people back - there was enough of them, I counted 10, there could have been more.
The problem is people ask them for train information, "I want to get to Blackpool, should I get on the Glasgow train" and they are far from certain.
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Are those the ones who are employed by Carlisle Support Services?
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
I hope I don't come across one of them.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-45864908
This story is not surprising given that everything at Oxford Road, apart from the CLC stoppers, has to go through Platform 13 and 14.
This story is not surprising given that everything at Oxford Road, apart from the CLC stoppers, has to go through Platform 13 and 14.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I note that all the three largest Manchester stations made it into the top of the list shown in the article.
The story this refers to is a BBC article "UK's railway stations with most train delays revealed" which goes on to indicate that the station worthy of this award is Manchester Oxford Road. However the "Which?" study on which the article is based only looks at 30 stations across the country ("the 10 busiest stations in London and the 20 busiest outside the capital") so is highly selective and really doesn't end up meaning a lot, in my opinion.
In particular, those stations out of the chosen 30 in which through trains form a significant number of their services are almost certain to show up with greater delays than those in which trains commence their journeys.
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
It also looked at January-September this year, about half of which was the period of timetable meltdown on Northern and GTR. A longer review period might give a different answer.
From personal experience, I’d say that the results from January to the end of April are making things look better at Manchester Oxford Road. Since the timetable changes, it’s been a fiasco.
Additional capacity at Piccadilly should be built - although there will still be the bottle neck between the two stations.
I agree the work should be done, but remember it is the variable and often unpredictable platform reoccupation times at the stations that is the primary constraint and that is why the proposed scheme took the form it did. The plain track signalling between the stations could theoretically deliver 20tph or more in each direction already. The proposed station improvements squeeze maximum capacity, flexibility and resilience out of the corridor as a whole.
Boysteve
Member
Actually I disagree. If you think about the actual number of people affected, the number of customers who are late for work etc, the number of people who will be claiming delay repay etc, then you can use this study based on the busiest stations to identify where investment should be prioritised!
Killingworth
Established Member
Statistics can be used to prove almost anything as long as you choose the ones that suit your cause. However, the reason Oxford Road scores as badly as it does compared with Piccadilly must be clear to all on this thread. If Piccadilly were only judged by performance on Platforms 13 and 14 it must surely have won (or lost!) 1st place.
It could also be contended that delays on Platforms 13 and 14 knocked on to cause serious delays at Oxford Road, Leeds, York, Liverpool, Sheffield and places elsewhere not recorded in the sample. Whilst Platforms 13 and 14 aren't by a long way the only cause of delays, it's significant that they are in the centre of a web that extends right across the north, and to a lesser extent across the country.
For me, platforms 13 and 14 can be seen as a catalyst - at the moment, the route is far too populated with a mixture of slow Pacers and fairly quick 323s and 350s. While services are often 5 to 10 minutes late through (which is a fairly small delay when you look at the length of some of the routes), these delays multiply, causing services to lose their path, get caught behind a local stopper etc. This is especially prevalent on the Norwich to Liverpool's which regularly skip Dore and Sheffield, often on the daily.
99% of trains are held on the viaducts outside of Piccadilly due to 13 and 14. Making better use of 13a/13b and likewise for 14 would speed up the results as it would mean trains could be doing something I.e. loading passengers, instead of waiting time on the viaduct. This is also a better result for passengers as I'm sure regular passengers would rather wait a few minutes in a station than, to them, in the middle of nowhere.
99% of trains are held on the viaducts outside of Piccadilly due to 13 and 14. Making better use of 13a/13b and likewise for 14 would speed up the results as it would mean trains could be doing something I.e. loading passengers, instead of waiting time on the viaduct. This is also a better result for passengers as I'm sure regular passengers would rather wait a few minutes in a station than, to them, in the middle of nowhere.
A train stopping to carry out station duties at the ‘wrong’ end of either platform would cause chaos and almost certainly increase the delay. The platform’s far too crowded and narrow to have a trainload of passengers fighting through the crowds waiting at the ‘correct’ end for a train in the opposite direction. You’d have to take the first train past its normal stopping point, and past part of the crowd of waiting passengers, to get one in behind too.
Not necessarily - the platform I believe is already split into A and B ends, so announcing it as such would make it easy. A lot of people on that platform are clearly regular commuters so would easily get used to it
It’s one thing announcing it - it’s quite another for a crowd of passengers to get there safely, when the body of passengers waiting at the ‘correct’ end of one platform often extends right up to the yellow line at the ‘wrong’ end of the other.
It certainly seems to be the general consensus that, even if a (through) train is stopped at the mid-platform signal - which will only happen if the previous train has stopped further along the platform than normal (clearing the overlap) or has started but then stopped again before clearing the platform - the doors should be kept closed until the mid-platform signal clears and the train can move forward to the normal stopping position, unless it’s clearly going to be an extended delay.
It just seems like a waste otherwise - feasibly, the longest train in passenger service I can think of is an 8-car 350, which itself is fairly rare. Without looming at the sectional appendix, I can imagine 99% of in service trains could fit in the front signal block, thus enabling another train to fit in the one behind.
Killingworth
Established Member
In theory it should work, but the theory needs to allow for high numbers crowded onto the relatively narrow island platform and human nature. With passengers wanting to board and leave 4 different trains it would be bedlam!
Regular commuter users would have a big advantage but would be impeded (as they are now) by those of us who are less frequent users, and especially those wanting to go to, or arriving from, the airport, some of whom may speak little English, are dragging massive items of luggage, and are unfamiliar with Britain, let alone 13/14.
I haven't got a picture of a busy day, this was probably as quiet as I've seen it, yet I still found myself tripping over massive bags to get to the right carriage when our 5 coach train arrived on 14. Try multiplying that by 4 and remember there are also those getting off with all their luggage before any of these people could get on. And this was a sunny day in summer without heavy winter clothing or umbrellas to add further congestion.
Digital railway solutions, really?
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The issue of people dithering about is one that is especially prevalent, especially on these platforms where the majority of the airport services go from, particularly the notion of letting people off first, or standing on the right of the escalator (a particular pet peeve of mine). However, the combination of foreign tourists not au fait with Britain, and the self-righteous businessmen, will never listen. Most people however would respond fairly well I imagine.
Altfish
Member
The use of A and B sections of the platforms will not help.
Piccadilly is not like York or New Street; if B is occupied a train can't pass and go into A.
So, you bring the first train of the day into A; then behind the second train pulls into B; the first train now leaves, but the third train is still waiting on the viaduct for the second to clear.
As has been said earlier, the chaos caused when an inevitable delay means that the train heading for the B platform is changed to A.
It won't work, the only solution is build 15 & 16
Piccadilly is not like York or New Street; if B is occupied a train can't pass and go into A.
So, you bring the first train of the day into A; then behind the second train pulls into B; the first train now leaves, but the third train is still waiting on the viaduct for the second to clear.
As has been said earlier, the chaos caused when an inevitable delay means that the train heading for the B platform is changed to A.
It won't work, the only solution is build 15 & 16
krus_aragon
Established Member
But when the second train leaves, the third and fourth ones can pull up in quick succession, effectively flighting trains through in pairs.
It's not much, and doesn't address the crowding on-platform, but it could offer something. Just not as much as platforms 15 and 16 could.
It is possible - I've seen it done and disembarked from the rear end of 14 when there was disruption. I'm not going to pretend it's the ultimate solution, but it's a good interim measure. The longest waits are when passengers embark and disembark the trains so by having two at once, with clear PIS to avoid confusion, it will speed up journeys, just as Krus said.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
That might work if everything arrived on time to the second. But the existing arrangement would also work in that happy situation. As soon as any pair of trains were in the wrong order it would be necessary to swap them to the "wrong" ends of the platform.
Have you ever been there when a train is switched to a B platform? I can assure you there is absolute chaos as people twig something is going on, then start making their way through the crowds of people waiting for later trains, past the bottleneck of the stairs. By this time the train has arrived and they then have to fight their way against the wave of people alighting and heading for the exit. 10min additional delay is easily possible, plus a load of angry passengers who never heard the announcement. And that's only when one train switches to B - in the situation I described above two trains would be swapping so there would be an equal number of passengers trying to do the same thing in the opposite direction.
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