Platform barriers

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Blamethrower

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Discussing St Albans platforms on another thread, do we, the train enthusiasts, think that platform doors are a good idea?

Personally, I don't think that the full Jubilee/crossrail solution is required, maybe just some rising railings?

I raise this due to discussions about St Albans fast platforms, but also having stood on platform 3 at rugby when a double voyager flies past.

High speeds through platforms are downright dangerous, are there any other options?

Railings stay up until the train "has reached a complete stop", not a half stop obviously, then they drop when the driver presses the buttons to open the doors. This could also help load and unload the train more efficiently.

thoughts please
 
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Redonian

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Platform 3 at Rugby is a bay so I doubt double voyagers could fly through.
I guess you mean Platform 4.
 

Clip

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Platform edge doors are not there in the main to keep people off the tracks.

The only idea would be to barriers the platforms like they do in the southern region but again only if there is room. The only other solution would be to slow trains down as they go through stations but thats wasteful.

The only question I would ask you is - how many incidents have occured in the last 10 years between a fast train and passenger that your proposed(and expensive) solution would have stopped?

Actually make that 30 years.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think the idea of fencing off fast lines not normally used for passenger service with gated railings, which is mainly a psychological anti-suicide measure, is a good idea. It also makes the station feel less oppressive (might not be the right word) when a train passes at speed - it certainly does at Bletchley.

PEDs or similar aren't practical where trains have differing door layouts. The approach taken by DB at some stations may be worthy of consideration, though:



You only pass the barriers once the train has fully stopped. They are no real physical barrier, but a psychological one can be almost as good.
 

Tetchytyke

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Gates and barriers are fine where there are no scheduled trains to stop on a platform, and there does seem to have been some success with them on the southern WCML and ECML. The barrier is psychological rather than a hurdle that's impossible to overcome, sure, but there does seem to have been some success. They prevent accidents if not the determined.

A similar thing along fast platforms that are regularly used might work, along the lines of "wait behind the fence until the train arrives". Again, it would prevent accidents rather than the determined. I'm surprised they didn't do something like this at the new platform 3 at Peterborough, which is surprisingly narrow for a new platform on a fast line.

Once you start mechanising things it gets expensive, and it probably isn't worth the cost.
 

jopsuk

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In Japan there's various "lifting fence" type platform edge barriers that are only there to stop people going under trains (as they are fences and on open air platforms) and can cope with trains that have different door positions. They also don't require pinpoint accuracy from the driver
 

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I dont think the OP was concerned with suicides more the worry of people getting dragged under during a fast train passing.
 

ComUtoR

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You only pass the barriers once the train has fully stopped. They are no real physical barrier, but a psychological one can be almost as good.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=128242

Might want to keep reading that thread. There are some, not me, who would see that fence as ambiguous. The warning triangle is merely a warning and clearly passengers/enthusiasts know better and there is a rather large gap in the fence.

What does the wording state, does it only apply to the fence and not the gap (as in, please don't climb over the fence)

If the intent is to prevent people from entering that area whilst not in use or a train is hurtling down the platform then edge doors is the only "solution"
 

Bletchleyite

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A similar thing along fast platforms that are regularly used might work, along the lines of "wait behind the fence until the train arrives".

Yes, that's the DB approach on lines where trains pass at 200km/h or more. Previously, trains passing platforms with passengers on them at 200km/h or more (I think) was banned outright.

Would probably also help guards and DOO drivers with dispatch - probably easier to see if everyone is behind the fence or not.

That said, suicides aside I don't think it's a massive problem (people interacting with trains that have stopped or are stopping is a greater one). A train passing at 125mph "feels" dangerous so people treat it as if it is, by and large.
 

swt_passenger

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Yes, that's the DB approach on lines where trains pass at 200km/h or more. Previously, trains passing platforms with passengers on them at 200km/h or more (I think) was banned outright.

That's also the speed limit (125 in mph) where the current GB standard changes. Up to and including 125 mph warning lines and signs are considered adequate, above that speed then access limitations are required.

Chapter 9 of http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/GIRT7016 Iss 5.pdf gives the details, for some reason I can't copy and paste it.

As no trains run past platforms at higher speeds yet, the method to be used for limiting access has not been needed yet, so we don't really know what it might be.
 

edwin_m

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Solid doors have the problem that a train can't pass them at more than a very low speed anyway, because of the aerodynamic forces. To avoid this they would have to be set far enough back from the edge that somebody could get in between.

Fences with horizontal bars are very easy to climb over because the bars act as steps. Fences with vertical bars can't have automatic powered sliding gates in case somebody puts their arm through just as they start to move. And vertical lifting ones would need sensors to prevent them descending onto somebody.

All in all probably a complication the railway could do without.
 

Philip Phlopp

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All in all probably a complication the railway could do without.

Your best bet is keeping passengers in a waiting room until the last high speed service has passed, then opening the doors to allow passengers onto the platform before the next stopping train at that platform.

Won't work everywhere, but a couple of sets of automatic doors and a nice warm waiting area are infinitely better than trying to make some sort of screen system that's compatible with our platforms, trains and moron passengers.
 

Bletchleyite

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Your best bet is keeping passengers in a waiting room until the last high speed service has passed, then opening the doors to allow passengers onto the platform before the next stopping train at that platform.

Won't work everywhere, but a couple of sets of automatic doors and a nice warm waiting area are infinitely better than trying to make some sort of screen system that's compatible with our platforms, trains and moron passengers.

It has occurred to me that the layout at Watford Junction, expanded so that the waiting room extended the full length of the platform (or most of it), could actually be a very good solution.
 

Antman

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Discussing St Albans platforms on another thread, do we, the train enthusiasts, think that platform doors are a good idea?

Personally, I don't think that the full Jubilee/crossrail solution is required, maybe just some rising railings?

I raise this due to discussions about St Albans fast platforms, but also having stood on platform 3 at rugby when a double voyager flies past.

High speeds through platforms are downright dangerous, are there any other options?

Railings stay up until the train "has reached a complete stop", not a half stop obviously, then they drop when the driver presses the buttons to open the doors. This could also help load and unload the train more efficiently.

thoughts please

The Jubilee Line PED's are for airflow management purpose although they obviously have additional benefits.

On the big railway I guess it depends on the location as to how practical they are, many platforms normally used soley by fast trains are fenced off anyway.
 

edwin_m

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The Jubilee Line PED's are for airflow management purpose although they obviously have additional benefits.

Although the area above them on the Jubilee Line is open. The Crossrail ones will have a screen going right up to the tunnel roof, to prevent air movement between the platform and the running tunnel. This helps with ventilation and smoke management.
 

Blamethrower

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Well, we all talk about things that can help save lives and spending money facilitates this. Yes it would cost a lot of money but is it not worth it even for just 1 childs life?

All it takes is someone tripping over someone elses bag and bam you've got their brains all over your face.

(playing devils advocate here)
 

Philip Phlopp

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Well, we all talk about things that can help save lives and spending money facilitates this. Yes it would cost a lot of money but is it not worth it even for just 1 childs life?

All it takes is someone tripping over someone elses bag and bam you've got their brains all over your face.

(playing devils advocate here)

Go fix road safety first and come back and annoy the railway when you've done that.

2013 has 398 pedestrians killed on Britain's roads and just 3 passengers killed on stations, of which 2 might have been preventable by platform doors. All 3 fatalities would have been preventable if the passengers weren't drunk.
 
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jopsuk

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Absolutely- though the railway is a much more controllable environment as the vehicles always travel in controlled paths and are only operated by highly trained and monitored professionals.

As an aside though, here's one of the Japanese systems
 

ANDYS

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Not wishing to cause a fuss but are platform edges a danger?

I understand that suicides need to be prevented but how many accidents on platform edges are there? I am certain there are some but when do you decide that platform doors need to be put up. When do we start worrying about people being trapped the wrong side of the door or getting trapped when the door open/closes.

Our H&S culture trying to get rid of every conceivable risk can go too far. Platforms can be dangerous so use some common sense and stay away from the edge. If you are stupid enough to put yourself (and others) in danger then throw the full weight of the law at these people so they slowly learn to behave more sensibly.
 

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Well, we all talk about things that can help save lives and spending money facilitates this. Yes it would cost a lot of money but is it not worth it even for just 1 childs life?

All it takes is someone tripping over someone elses bag and bam you've got their brains all over your face.

(playing devils advocate here)

Ok ill ask again.

Can you tell me how many instances has this happened over the last 50 years in the case you mention?

Sensible question, can you give me a sensible answer?
 

Bletchleyite

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Well, we all talk about things that can help save lives and spending money facilitates this. Yes it would cost a lot of money but is it not worth it even for just 1 childs life?

Money is finite. If spending that money elsewhere would save more lives, no, it isn't.

Similarly, if the money was spent but caused a fare increase which made more people travel by car, it might well cause deaths (those put off air travel by 9/11 caused an increase in road deaths, yet had they flown they would not have died).
 

Bald Rick

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Well, we all talk about things that can help save lives and spending money facilitates this. Yes it would cost a lot of money but is it not worth it even for just 1 childs life?

All it takes is someone tripping over someone elses bag and bam you've got their brains all over your face.

(playing devils advocate here)

There are far more cost effective methods of preventing injuries, and worse, on the rail network. Removing Level Crossings for example.
 

SpacePhoenix

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What's the speed limit (if any) that any fast train anywhere in the UK is allowed to pass through a station where the platform has anyone on it?
 

edwin_m

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What's the speed limit (if any) that any fast train anywhere in the UK is allowed to pass through a station where the platform has anyone on it?

125mph, so at present everywhere except HS1 (where all platforms are on lower-speed loops anyway). But if speeds are increased above 125mph then it is likely that passengers would not be allowed on platforms when faster trains are passing on the adjacent track.
 

D1009

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125mph, so at present everywhere except HS1 (where all platforms are on lower-speed loops anyway). But if speeds are increased above 125mph then it is likely that passengers would not be allowed on platforms when faster trains are passing on the adjacent track.
Which presumably means 140 mph running on ECML and GWML with ETCS is looking even less likely.
 

swt_passenger

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What's the speed limit (if any) that any fast train anywhere in the UK is allowed to pass through a station where the platform has anyone on it?

125 mph. I wrote that a few posts before yours, (post #10) and provided a link to the relevant group standard.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But if speeds are increased above 125mph then it is likely that passengers would not be allowed on platforms when faster trains are passing on the adjacent track.

The wording of the group standard I linked to on the previous page says exactly that. It is a bit more than likely...
 
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Deepgreen

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Not wishing to cause a fuss but are platform edges a danger?

I understand that suicides need to be prevented but how many accidents on platform edges are there? I am certain there are some but when do you decide that platform doors need to be put up. When do we start worrying about people being trapped the wrong side of the door or getting trapped when the door open/closes.

Our H&S culture trying to get rid of every conceivable risk can go too far. Platforms can be dangerous so use some common sense and stay away from the edge. If you are stupid enough to put yourself (and others) in danger then throw the full weight of the law at these people so they slowly learn to behave more sensibly.

Platform edges are, by their nature, a relatively very high risk area on the railway. They are the interface between solid ground and track or train. I imagine that the vast majority of incidents on the main line connected with platform edges are suicide attempts, but not all. Some very crowded platforms can have an increased risk of people being forced too close to the edge, and on the Underground, there are fairly frequent occurrences of people leaning out to see if a train is coming/horseplay/drunkenness which end in disaster. Recent examples include fatalities and maimings.

Platform edge doors are at present only installed on the Jubilee line extension, and abut the actual edge of the platform absolutely, so that it is impossible for a person to be trapped on the 'wrong' side. Their provision was for several reasons (not least the chief Architect's desire to see a 'neat' platform environment) including suicide prevention, litter reduction (especially the electrical problems caused by metal litter in contact with the live rail) and air movement management. The doors are also only fitted to platforms which are either straight or with very gentle curvature, owing to the problem of platform/train interface gaps.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Go fix road safety first and come back and annoy the railway when you've done that.

2013 has 398 pedestrians killed on Britain's roads and just 3 passengers killed on stations, of which 2 might have been preventable by platform doors. All 3 fatalities would have been preventable if the passengers weren't drunk.

Only 3 killed on stations? Does this include a) those who jump from platforms, and, b) London Underground? If yes to the first, then the latter alone would account for an average of around one per week.
 
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Philip Phlopp

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Only 3 killed on stations? Does this include a) those who jump from platforms, and, b) London Underground? If yes to the first, then the latter alone would account for an average of around one per week.

No, suicides are separate, it's only accidental deaths on stations counted there.

Suicides being prevented by barriers are really difficult to call, maybe you would stop some, maybe you just move the problem to level crossings or bridges.
 

Pseudonym

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Go fix road safety first and come back and annoy the railway when you've done that.

2013 has 398 pedestrians killed on Britain's roads and just 3 passengers killed on stations, of which 2 might have been preventable by platform doors. All 3 fatalities would have been preventable if the passengers weren't drunk.

Well said sir!
 
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