Playing with crayons: Hampton Court to Bromley North via the Ludgate Lines

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DasLunatic

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I've had another silly idea: running through services from Hampton Court to Bromley North, using the 377/5s freed up by Thameslink, supplemented with 376s in the peaks. Firstly, are there the paths to allow this, especially around Clapham Junction, and is there the demand for such a service?

This service would use the Hampton Court-Waterloo path on the SWT side and replace the Bromley North - Grove Park shuttle on the Southeastern side, meaning the service frequency will be half-hourly.

Also, could longer cross-London services work, for example Portsmouth to Margate?

EDIT: A look at a detailed map has revealed that such a service could not run unless it is diverted via Putney and a flyover is re-instated. Either way, is there still demand for cross-London services away from Thameslink and Crossrail?
 
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30907

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Also, could longer cross-London services work, for example Portsmouth to Margate?

Either way, is there still demand for cross-London services away from Thameslink and Crossrail?

Before the Portsmouth Direct was electrified, there was indeed a seasonal cross-country service from Dover to Bournemouth via Tonbridge-Guildford-Havant (see 1922 Bradshaw).
I don't think it loaded heavily.

The problem is that there are lots of little flows rather than one major one, and that's not easy for rail to cater for. I always thought Croydon-Guidford might warrant a direct service, but it didn't last long. And then there was my plan around 1970 for Beckenham Jn-Croydon via the bay at Crystal Palace - at least there's the tram now....
 

infobleep

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Before the Portsmouth Direct was electrified, there was indeed a seasonal cross-country service from Dover to Bournemouth via Tonbridge-Guildford-Havant (see 1922 Bradshaw).
I don't think it loaded heavily.

The problem is that there are lots of little flows rather than one major one, and that's not easy for rail to cater for. I always thought Croydon-Guidford might warrant a direct service, but it didn't last long. And then there was my plan around 1970 for Beckenham Jn-Croydon via the bay at Crystal Palace - at least there's the tram now....

If there was always an issue with there being no end to end flow on trains you wouldn't have Thameslink. I guess that has two major flows to justify it are North to London and South to London. May be other areas don't have such big destinations to make it worth while.

Personally I think the best thing for passengers would be more interchange opportunities at Clapham Junction but that won't be happening in the short term.

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NSE

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I feel like thats a waste of 377's (Not just because I love them). I feel the 378's or 376's would be better suited to the shorter service. Though they'd work for the longer Portsmouth/Margate style service you mention.
 

swt_passenger

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Your service couldn't possibly be pathed in the down direction through Wimbledon either, irrespective of reinstating the Putney connections. Taking a slow service across a pair of conflicting fast lines on a flat connection just isn't going to happen.
 

LBSCR Times

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Your service couldn't possibly be pathed in the down direction through Wimbledon either, irrespective of reinstating the Putney connections. Taking a slow service across a pair of conflicting fast lines on a flat connection just isn't going to happen.

And similar at Grove Park, especially in the peaks.
 

infobleep

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And similar at Grove Park, especially in the peaks.

Your service couldn't possibly be pathed in the down direction through Wimbledon either, irrespective of reinstating the Putney connections. Taking a slow service across a pair of conflicting fast lines on a flat connection just isn't going to happen.
In fantasy world, could they build fly overs to avoid the flat junctions? Is there space. I'm not saying it's justified in the real world mind you.

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swt_passenger

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In fantasy world, could they build fly overs to avoid the flat junctions? Is there space. I'm not saying it's justified in the real world mind you.

Only at least four flyovers required, so yeah why not.
Wimbledon - straight through Crossrail 2's plans, demolish a few more road bridges and shopping centres.
East Putney for up trains towards Clapham Junction - just a renewal.
Clapham Junction area from down Ludgate line (used by LO SLL) to down slow Windsor - do you want this London side or country side of Clapham Junction?
Grove Park - not my area :)

Haven't even thought about the south London connecting route, with its significant number of flat junctions.
 

Deepgreen

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I've had another silly idea: running through services from Hampton Court to Bromley North, using the 377/5s freed up by Thameslink, supplemented with 376s in the peaks. Firstly, are there the paths to allow this, especially around Clapham Junction, and is there the demand for such a service?

This service would use the Hampton Court-Waterloo path on the SWT side and replace the Bromley North - Grove Park shuttle on the Southeastern side, meaning the service frequency will be half-hourly.

Also, could longer cross-London services work, for example Portsmouth to Margate?

EDIT: A look at a detailed map has revealed that such a service could not run unless it is diverted via Putney and a flyover is re-instated. Either way, is there still demand for cross-London services away from Thameslink and Crossrail?

Indeed you have!
 

DasLunatic

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The pathing problems could be reduced, I think. Have trains from Wimbledon travel via Putney and the re-instated flyover and trains going the other way travelling via Earlesfield. This link will be created by means of a new set of points connecting the Battersea lines to the Down Slow.

Still don't know how to fix Grove Park, however.
 

Deepgreen

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Only at least four flyovers required, so yeah why not.
Wimbledon - straight through Crossrail 2's plans, demolish a few more road bridges and shopping centres.
East Putney for up trains towards Clapham Junction - just a renewal.
Clapham Junction area from down Ludgate line (used by LO SLL) to down slow Windsor - do you want this London side or country side of Clapham Junction?
Grove Park - not my area :)

Haven't even thought about the south London connecting route, with its significant number of flat junctions.

The obvious solution is the reinstatement of the Waterloo Main link to Waterloo East. A couple of "wet floor" cones should be enough to allow trains to pass across the crowded concourse, along with suitable juice rail plastic protection!
 

swt_passenger

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The obvious solution is the reinstatement of the Waterloo Main link to Waterloo East. A couple of "wet floor" cones should be enough to allow trains to pass across the crowded concourse, along with suitable juice rail plastic protection!

It's OK, I've rung for your nurse now...
 

Bald Rick

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Not so sure the good folk of New Malden, Raynes Park, Wimbledon and Earlsfield will welcome the 11% reduction in peak capacity to Central London, with no alternative replacement offered.
 

lejog

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I'm not sure that there's room for this service through Putney when there are already 15 District Line trains per hour in the peak (12tph off-peak).
 

JamesRowden

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I've had another silly idea: running through services from Hampton Court to Bromley North, using the 377/5s freed up by Thameslink, supplemented with 376s in the peaks. Firstly, are there the paths to allow this, especially around Clapham Junction, and is there the demand for such a service?

This service would use the Hampton Court-Waterloo path on the SWT side and replace the Bromley North - Grove Park shuttle on the Southeastern side, meaning the service frequency will be half-hourly.

Also, could longer cross-London services work, for example Portsmouth to Margate?

EDIT: A look at a detailed map has revealed that such a service could not run unless it is diverted via Putney and a flyover is re-instated. Either way, is there still demand for cross-London services away from Thameslink and Crossrail?

Once the new Thameslink service starts there should be the following (NOT LONDON) connections available which create a route which serves flows very similar to your through service idea:
  • SWT Waterloo service Hampton Court to Clapham Junction
    • LO East London Line service to Pekham Rye every 10 minutes
      • TL Sevenoaks/Orpington via Catford service every 15 minutes
 
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infobleep

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Only at least four flyovers required, so yeah why not.
Wimbledon - straight through Crossrail 2's plans, demolish a few more road bridges and shopping centres.
East Putney for up trains towards Clapham Junction - just a renewal.
Clapham Junction area from down Ludgate line (used by LO SLL) to down slow Windsor - do you want this London side or country side of Clapham Junction?
Grove Park - not my area :)

Haven't even thought about the south London connecting route, with its significant number of flat junctions.
Interesting.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The obvious solution is the reinstatement of the Waterloo Main link to Waterloo East. A couple of "wet floor" cones should be enough to allow trains to pass across the crowded concourse, along with suitable juice rail plastic protection!
I wonder if it hadn't closed in the first place, could it have grandfather rights today? <D

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urpert

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And similar at Grove Park, especially in the peaks.

Indeed, which is precisely the reason why the Bromley North service runs as a branch.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Only at least four flyovers required, so yeah why not.
Wimbledon - straight through Crossrail 2's plans, demolish a few more road bridges and shopping centres.
East Putney for up trains towards Clapham Junction - just a renewal.
Clapham Junction area from down Ludgate line (used by LO SLL) to down slow Windsor - do you want this London side or country side of Clapham Junction?
Grove Park - not my area :)

Haven't even thought about the south London connecting route, with its significant number of flat junctions.

Couple of road bridges in the way just north of Grove Park station. Perhaps you could build a double deck station at Hither Green with the elevated platforms just for the Bromley North service.
 
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ComUtoR

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I'm still surprised no one has mentioned the platform lengths for the Bromley North branch.
 

ComUtoR

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I'm not very good at this crayonista gig, am I?

Its a good theory but rather than look at the lines, look at the passengers. Why would you go from Bromley North to Hampton Court other than on a school trip ?

We have a couple of unused links across London that may be worth playing trains with.

Beckenham Junction to Charing Cross : Shockingly underused and you could run a service from Bromley South (and further down the line) to Charing Cross to reduce the congestion going Bromley North into Grove Park and reduce pressure on those going into Vic and using the tube.

  • Going via Linford Street into Waterloo is an option (stock permitting)
  • SE services stopping Clapham High St and Wandsworth Road
  • Hayes <> Blackfriars via Met Jn (when it reopens)
  • Services out of Vic going through Stewarts Lane and beyond.
  • St Mary Cray to Charing Cross Via the Chatham Loops
  • SE services going round into Clapham Jn
 

CatfordCat

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Dunno really.

Forecasting demand for a (currently) non-existent transport corridor is something of a science, but not an entirely accurate one. I can think of some projects that got almost more passengers than they could cope with, and some that didn't get what they expected.

And of course new transport links being available generates journeys that weren't made before (people will consider new combinations of home / work location for example)

London has a certain critical mass for things to stand a good chance - I can remember the West London Line of what's now Overground having two (or was it two each peak?) trains between Clapham Junction and Olympia on Monday to Friday, and they weren't very busy.

I have (somewhere) got a late 80s / early 90s book (think it's a Middleton Press) which is part a photo history of the Southern's termini, but also proposing a scheme in some detail to revive the cross-Waterloo link to run services from the South Western to South Eastern networks. Think it was published not long after Thameslink had (re) opened. Don't think the idea got very far when it comes to official consideration.

All other practicalities aside, I suppose now there's the mezzanine thing at Waterloo (main) it would be less impractical than before to split the concourse in to two parts...
 

Busaholic

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Well, I lived in Bromley and I did once visit Hampton Court, with my godmother and we got lost in the maze; seem to remember we caught a trolleybus from Wimbledon to get to HC, so, on the basis that I'd ever want to go there again, and could afford to live in Bromley again (only a lottery jackpot would suffice) I say, yes, bring it on!
 

30907

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Well, I lived in Bromley and I did once visit Hampton Court, with my godmother and we got lost in the maze; seem to remember we caught a trolleybus from Wimbledon to get to HC, so, on the basis that I'd ever want to go there again, and could afford to live in Bromley again (only a lottery jackpot would suffice) I say, yes, bring it on!

Whereas the 725 Green Line was what I remember using twice with my parents - despite the notorious traffic in Kingston. There's obviously a demand :)-
 

Class377/5

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I've had another silly idea: running through services from Hampton Court to Bromley North, using the 377/5s freed up by Thameslink, supplemented with 376s in the peaks. Firstly, are there the paths to allow this, especially around Clapham Junction, and is there the demand for such a service?

This service would use the Hampton Court-Waterloo path on the SWT side and replace the Bromley North - Grove Park shuttle on the Southeastern side, meaning the service frequency will be half-hourly.

Also, could longer cross-London services work, for example Portsmouth to Margate?

EDIT: A look at a detailed map has revealed that such a service could not run unless it is diverted via Putney and a flyover is re-instated. Either way, is there still demand for cross-London services away from Thameslink and Crossrail?

Er what freed up 377/5? They already have a new home to go to and moving them away will lead to a shortage of stock (with nothing that capable of replacing it either). So your idea falls at the first step I'm afraid.
 
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