Please help! Facing prosecution for an invalid oyster

[Jo81]

In August 2018 i travelled from hackney to Liverpool st without validating my Oyster card. I had a 1 months travel card on my Oyster, but at hackney it wouldn't scan because it had become so old and bent. I pleaded with the staff member as I was late for work, he let me through, shrugging, and said I'd just have to explain it to the staff at Liverpool st. When I got to lvpl st I explained to a member of station staff what had happened - at that time my only concern was the £153 I'd paid for a month's travel card that I presumably would never get back as I hadn't registered my Oyster card
He took all my details down and let me through the barrier, and I never heard anything about it so completely forgot it had happened.
In December 2018 I moved house, shortly after I moved TFL sent a letter to my old address asking me to pay a fine. I never received this or any subsequent letters (including a court summons and threat of balifs) because my old flatmates never told me I was still receiving post there. Fast forward to now, December 2019, I receive a letter from balifs asking me to pay £800 or they'd send people round to my home. Panicked and confused, I called the debtors, then the courts and eventually found that this fine was for that train journey in August 2018.
I've raised a statutory declaration form with the courts so hopefully this keeps the debt collectors at bay, and then I hope to dispute and resolve the issue in court with a reduced fine.
Has anyone had a similar experience/know what to do? I feel like this is wildly over the top for a £3.50 railfare which I wasn't even trying to avoid. If I had received the initial letter I would have contacted them straight away. I've not tried to hide that I moved house, I've been paying council tax and bills here for the last year, voted here twice, Ive not kept my address a secret. It isn't my fault that it's escalated this far, and hopefully I can dispute it but I'm still very worried.
Any advise would be appreciated!

 

[Snow1964]

Just to clarify, was the monthly travelcard season covering this journey (within the zones and validity dates)

Completely different if you have an oyster card that fails (as you were sold something that broke down) compared to if you tried to make a pay as you go journey outside your travelcard

 

[ainsworth74]

Just to be clear you had a monthly travelcard and you travelled wholly within the validity of that travelcard? I.e if it was for say Zones 1 - 3 you didn't travel outside of that area?

 

[Llanigraham]

Has anyone had a similar experience/know what to do? I feel like this is wildly over the top for a £3.50 railfare which I wasn't even trying to avoid. If I had received the initial letter I would have contacted them straight away. I've not tried to hide that I moved house, I've been paying council tax and bills here for the last year, voted here twice, Ive not kept my address a secret. It isn't my fault that it's escalated this far, and hopefully I can dispute it but I'm still very worried.
Any advise would be appreciated!

You could have arranged for your post to be sent to your new address, instead of relying on someone else.
The fact that you were paying Council Tax at another address is of no consequence, and has no connection with Transport for London, who would have had no access to those records.
Therefore it is your fault that this has escalated.
As it stands now, by stating a Statutory Declaration at Court you have taken the whole proceedure back to the beginning. I suggest that we will need a few more details from you, such as which zones were on your Card, and what the exact journey was.

 

[jumble]

A Z1 to Z3 monthly is £158.30 ( which would have been 153 last year)
Hackney is in Z2
I looks like you had a valid card but unfortunately their Ts and Cs will insist you pay for travel which may be refunded when you receive a new card
I hope you have a satisfactory outcome as presumably the prosecutor could be advised from TFL that the card number so and so was valid and so they would know you were not fare dodging
( assuming it was)

 

[Jo81]

Just to be clear you had a monthly travelcard and you travelled wholly within the validity of that travelcard? I.e if it was for say Zones 1 - 3 you didn't travel outside of that area?

It was a zone 1-3 travel card; I was living in zone 3 but had stayed at my partners in Hackney the night before, so was travelling in from zone 2

 

[hkstudent]

A Z1 to Z3 monthly is £158.30 ( which would have been 153 last year)
Hackney is in Z2
I looks like you had a valid card but unfortunately their Ts and Cs will insist you pay for travel which may be refunded when you receive a new card
I hope you have a satisfactory outcome as presumably the prosecutor could be advised from TFL that the card number so and so was valid and so they would know you were not fare dodging
( assuming it was)

The issue is, does TfL hold Travelcard record for more than a year?

 

[Jo81]

A Z1 to Z3 monthly is £158.30 ( which would have been 153 last year)
Hackney is in Z2
I looks like you had a valid card but unfortunately their Ts and Cs will insist you pay for travel which may be refunded when you receive a new card
I hope you have a satisfactory outcome as presumably the prosecutor could be advised from TFL that the card number so and so was valid and so they would know you were not fare dodging
( assuming it was)

Unfortunately the card has been lost/ thrown away since then; I was able to get a new one and a partial refund, but it was registered to my flat mate, not me. My partner suggested that I use my bank statement of that month as evidence to show I paid £153 to TFL within 1 month of the incident, suggesting that I would have had money on my oyster

Just to clarify, was the monthly travelcard season covering this journey (within the zones and validity dates)

Completely different if you have an oyster card that fails (as you were sold something that broke down) compared to if you tried to make a pay as you go journey outside your travelcard

Yes it was covering this journey, I'd paid for one month's travelcard within 1 month of the incident. I wasn't trying to dodge the fare, I gave them all my information and they let me through the barriers. If I'd had ANY idea it would be escalated to this level I would have contacted them soon after the incident.

The issue is, does TfL hold Travelcard record for more than a year?

I have no idea :/

You could have arranged for your post to be sent to your new address, instead of relying on someone else.
The fact that you were paying Council Tax at another address is of no consequence, and has no connection with Transport for London, who would have had no access to those records.
Therefore it is your fault that this has escalated.
As it stands now, by stating a Statutory Declaration at Court you have taken the whole proceedure back to the beginning. I suggest that we will need a few more details from you, such as which zones were on your Card, and what the exact journey was.

The incident happened in August and TFL didn't contact me until December, during that time I'd completely forgot about it and no one had told me to expect anything. I wasn't relying on anyone else, I just wasn't expecting anything to go to a previous address as I'd updated my address with my bank/doctor/electoral role etc, everywhere I could think of that would need to know. I've been advised by the Single Justice stafd that, as I had no knowledge of the fine, I will have a good case to dispute it. Not the incident itself, just the large fine.
As I've said, I had a zone 1-3 travel card and was travelling from zone 2-1.

 

[jumble]

The incident happened in August and TFL didn't contact me until December, during that time I'd completely forgot about it and no one had told me to expect anything. I wasn't relying on anyone else, I just wasn't expecting anything to go to a previous address as I'd updated my address with my bank/doctor/electoral role etc, everywhere I could think of that would need to know. I've been advised by the Single Justice stafd that, as I had no knowledge of the fine, I will have a good case to dispute it. Not the incident itself, just the large fine.
As I've said, I had a zone 1-3 travel card and was travelling from zone 2-1.

Have you still got the card or at least it's number ?
Is this TFL or TIL?
Do you know what offence you were charged with? (ie RORA or Byelaw)

 

[jumble]

Unfortunately the card has been lost/ thrown away since then; I was able to get a new one and a partial refund, but it was registered to my flat mate, not me. My partner suggested that I use my bank statement of that month as evidence to show I paid £153 to TFL within 1 month of the incident, suggesting that I would have had money on my oyster

I think you 100% need to try and get hold of the prosecution notes and see if the number was logged there
I hope no one thinks you were travelling with someone else's card as this puts a whole different complexion on matters
You also need to be clear if this card was registered or not as you have said yes here but no in your OP

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Please don't let the £800 frighten you: as you have said, by making the statutory declaration, the whole process is reset. So as things stand at the moment, there is no fine, no costs, and no court costs, and (importantly) no bailiff's fees for you to pay - see (for example) https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/d...ailiffs-should-treat-you/check-bailiffs-fees/

If High Court bailiffs are collecting your debt
The bailiffs have to follow a 4-stage process including visits - they can charge you fees at any of these stages.

If you don’t agree to pay your debt quickly you’II be charged for more stages in the process.

For example, if you make a controlled goods agreement when the bailiffs first visit, you should only be charged the first enforcement fee.

If you refuse to make an agreement or don’t keep to the agreement you made, the bailiffs will charge another fee.

The rules on what fees bailiffs can charge are complicated. You should get help from your nearest Citizens Advice if you’re charged another fee and any of these applies:

• you've paid your debt in full
• you made a controlled goods agreement after the bailiffs’ first visit
• you haven’t refused to make a controlled goods agreement
• the bailiffs aren’t planning to take any of your belongings - for example, if they haven’t valued any of your things

If your debt is more than £1,000 the bailiffs are also allowed to charge you an extra fee. The fee is only charged on the amount of debt over £1,000 rather than your full debt.

For example, if your debt is £3,000 you would be charged 7.5% on £2,000. This means you would pay an extra fee of £150.

Type of fees.............................Fixed fee...Percentage extra you’ll pay for debts over £1,000
Writing to you about your debt
(called ‘compliance’).................£75...........None
Visiting your home
(called ‘enforcement 1’).............£190.........7.5 %
If you didn't make or didn't
keep an agreement
(called ‘enforcement 2’).............£495.........None
Taking and selling your
belongings (called 'sale')............£525.........7.5 %

(n.b. I've tried to sort out the formatting of the table - if that doesn't work that's my fault not Citizen Advice's)

If you now stay in touch with the process, the worst that can happen is that the case goes back to court and you are found guilty, resulting in a fine, costs and court costs (much as now) but no bailiff's fees. If the figures above are accurate, the fees will make up maybe £265 - so as long as you pay promptly, you will still be better off by having made the statutory declaration.

But while I gather that TfL do prosecute, I think it's quite likely that the reason you have ended up with a fine is that they fell out of contact with you - they thought you were ignoring them, so they went down the heavy route of going to court. So it's worth talking to them to see if they will agree an out of court settlement

 

[some bloke]

TFL sent a letter to my old address asking me to pay a fine. I never received this

Strictly speaking TfL can't impose a fine - only a court can. TfL can ask a passenger at the time to pay a penalty fare, or write offering an out-of-court settlement. We might expect them, when they hear about the stat dec, to offer the same settlement rather than prosecute.

Did the card keep working afterwards?

I've raised a statutory declaration form with the courts

Just to check, did you respond with a plea at the same time as making the stat dec (see instruction 5 on the form, for cases where there was a single justice procedure)?
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-being-prosecuted.190598/page-2#post-4200622

I hope to dispute and resolve the issue in court with a reduced fine.

I hope you'll do better than that.

My partner suggested that I use my bank statement of that month as evidence to show I paid £153 to TFL within 1 month of the incident, suggesting that I would have had money on my oyster

Yes, that's evidence to mention to TfL. If they were to start a prosecution again, it would still be open to you to put your case to them, to avoid court.

I've been advised by the Single Justice stafd that, as I had no knowledge of the fine, I will have a good case to dispute it. Not the incident itself, just the large fine.

Bailiffs' charges will be void after the stat dec. Unless the court convicts you again and you fail to pay a fine (or you fail to pay a debt), they have no relevance.

 

[some bloke]

It may be useful to write to TfL when the verdict is voided, explaining the situation and suggesting that if they send any original paperwork you don't already have, you may be in a better position to reply.

The stat dec (which the court will tell TfL about) says you didn't know about the court case; TfL may need notifying that you didn't know about the previous correspondence either.

 

[some bloke]

after I moved TFL sent a letter to my old address asking me to pay a fine. I never received this or any subsequent letters (including a court summons and threat of balifs) because my old flatmates never told me I was still receiving post there.

If you have some/all of the pre-court correspondence, uploading it here (with identifying details removed) may mean people can comment more.

 

[Snow1964]

It’s a company law requirement to keep accounting records, I think it is 6 years minimum

Therefore TfL should have the transaction records (eg copy till roll and card processing record). I suspect they won’t be to keen dig these out of an archive, or to produce the ticket inspector at the court to verify your discussion. But in theory if they want a full court hearing, you could request these as evidence against them.

As you have stated it is on your bank statement there will be an electronic transaction record, would have been much harder to prove if you paid cash. The good news is the above records will allow the Oyster card to be matched up, but might be on the documentation anyway, so the card usage records can be checked (I assume they will be on an archive or backup disk if not available live)

However I have concerns that you suggest the Oyster card was registered to someone else, rather than unregistered, as there are different problems if you are using someone else’s ticket

 

[Jo81]

I had no idea you couldn't use an oyster registered to someone else... My flatmate had a spare one (she would let visitors use it when they came to stay) and she'd given it to me when I'd lost my own. Is it illegal to use someone else's cars?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I had no idea you couldn't use an oyster registered to someone else.

Oyster is one of the ticketing exceptions where you can use someone else's ticket or pass. But that's only if it's a plain pay as you go card. Once a railcard or a season ticket is loaded, it becomes personalised again.

 

[some bloke]

They shoudn't treat someone who bought a Travelcard for herself, and who was the only person to use it, like someone who shared use of a Travelcard.

They may be suspicious, in which case if you have evidence of or can write about your movements (such as a full-time job) and/or your flatmate's, you might minimise any problem.

They might be unhappy if your flatmate said it was their Travelcard when applying for the refund.

From a quick look at documents (maybe in need of more study)
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/terms-and-conditions/ticketing-and-travel-conditions-of-carriage
(asterisks added):

3.1.2. If your Oyster card only has pay as you go credit on it to pay at adult rate, you can lend your card to someone else, even if it is registered in your name.

That paragraph doesn't forbid lending the card to a person who then puts a Travelcard on it.

3.2.1 ...Once an Oyster card is registered in your name, it will remain in your name and we will only be able to deal with you about any enquiries about the Oyster card. You will still be responsible for the Oyster card and any use made of it. We will not accept responsibility for any losses or issues arising out of the transfer and use of your Oyster card or if you share your personal details with anyone. [Edit at 23.29: Condition is 3.2.1 not 3.21.]

3.6 The *Travelcard* on your Oyster card is only valid for use by the person for whom *it* was issued.

You may not transfer your Oyster card containing this Travelcard to anyone else in order to
travel with it.

3.13 ...If the Oyster card is registered / protected, TfL will only be able to deal with the registered holder in connection with any enquiries. The registered holder will remain responsible for the Oyster card and any use made of it. The Train Companies and TfL will not accept any responsibility for any losses arising out of the loan or transfer and use of the Oyster card. If you have a
discount concession or Travelcard season ticket on your Oyster card you *cannot
transfer* it to anyone else *to pay as they go*.
...

[also section 4, Failed Oyster cards and 5, Refunds...]

 

[jon0844]

Even if the card became damaged, surely the number on the back of the card would be readable? Wouldn't you have sought to send it off to TfL so they could investigate further? They'd know if there was a season ticket on it.

 

[Jo81]

They shoudn't treat someone who bought a Travelcard for herself, and who was the only person to use it, like someone who shared use of a Travelcard.

They may be suspicious, in which case if you have evidence of or can write about your movements (such as a full-time job) and/or your flatmate's, you might minimise any problem.

They might be unhappy if your flatmate said it was their Travelcard when applying for the refund.

From a quick look at documents (maybe in need of more study)
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/terms-and-conditions/ticketing-and-travel-conditions-of-carriage
(asterisks added):

That paragraph doesn't forbid lending the card to a person who then puts a Travelcard on it.

Unfortunately she had to say it was hers to get the refund, she then transferred the money to me. I couldn't apply for a refund as it was registered in her name.
Thank you for sharing these paragraphs, thats a little more reassuring

 

[Jo81]

They shoudn't treat someone who bought a Travelcard for herself, and who was the only person to use it, like someone who shared use of a Travelcard.

They may be suspicious, in which case if you have evidence of or can write about your movements (such as a full-time job) and/or your flatmate's, you might minimise any problem.

They might be unhappy if your flatmate said it was their Travelcard when applying for the refund.

From a quick look at documents (maybe in need of more study)
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/terms-and-conditions/ticketing-and-travel-conditions-of-carriage
(asterisks added):

That paragraph doesn't forbid lending the card to a person who then puts a Travelcard on it.

Seems like it's fine for someone else to use it, but I wouldn't have any rights to it etc?

 

[some bloke]

If only one person uses the Oyster while it has a Travelcard loaded, other things being equal TfL can't lose any money.

So it's perhaps not surprising that they don't seem on the evidence above to spell out it's a problem.

If they spelt out that it wasn't a problem, maybe lots of people would misuse that to claim they weren't sharing Travelcards; maybe the confusion would cause headaches for TfL.

Aside: They say they will only deal with the person who registered it. If they took the number down, it might be a bit odd that they didn't check who it was registered to. So perhaps they made a mistake writing to you rather than your ex-flatmate. The more mistakes they make, the less likely they may be to reopen a case.

As you didn't intend to avoid a fare, you're not guilty of that offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Even if you technically travelled without a valid ticket (breaching a Byelaw), conviction simply for a card fault that you weren't aware of is hardly a sensible use of the law. (There's an exemption if a staff member authorises travel without a valid ticket, but it might be argued that strictly, that only applies if they know it's not valid.)

It isn't unreasonable for them to be suspicious - someone could have come from a station further away with no barriers, perhaps hoping to slip out behind someone else at the barriers; they only had your word that the staff member let you through at Hackney. So write and explain early - you can post a draft on here for people to comment on if you like.

 

[Jo81]

Thank you for your response, I really appreciate it and it's helping to put my mind at ease.
I really was never attempting to dodge a fare, and the station I came from had barriers I was just allowed to go through as the man could see I was desperate (if only I could have known it would all come to this!)
Tomorrow I'm planning on speaking to a solicitor to get them to submit the stat Dec form and get their advice. Then contact TFL directly and find out exactly what was put forward by them and what information they have on me, then hopefully we can deal with it out of court. I understand why they fined me, and if I have to pay that then I accept that. It's just being harassed by debt collectors and treated as if I've been on the run this last year. After I get legal advice tomorrow I will post a draft letter here if you wouldn't mind advising on the wording?

 

[some bloke]

Did you ask the solicitors' staff their fee for the stat dec? If you ask for advice, you might gently ask first - if you haven't already - whether a quick query (or whatever you have in mind) would count as a separate job!

I understand why they fined me

Do you mean "offered a settlement" or that you understand why the court fined you? The court fine was after TfL got no answer; the merits of the case otherwise are a different matter.

I might be able to make some sensible contribution on the letter, but other people can comment who are far more experienced than me, and people sometimes realise different things.

Keep the draft brief, with a focus on points that give them reasons to believe your story.

 

[Snow1964]

Oyster is one of the ticketing exceptions where you can use someone else's ticket or pass. But that's only if it's a plain pay as you go card. Once a railcard or a season ticket is loaded, it becomes personalised again.

This is where it gets messy, this ability helps customers, but also allows silly mistakes. As an example if 2 people living at same address accidentally pick up wrong (identical looking) Oyster card, don’t realise and continue to put tickets on it.

There is an argument that if it isn’t technically allowed, then the sale of the ticket should be void. But not aware that such a policy would be applied.

Could just as easily argue that a person who paid the deposit is the tickets user, not the person who may have later registered it. This raises the legal minefield of are you allowed to register a card that someone else bought, as the card is then being transferred.

 

[Jo81]

Did you ask the solicitors' staff their fee for the stat dec? If you ask for advice, you might gently ask first - if you haven't already - whether a quick query (or whatever you have in mind) would count as a separate job!

Do you mean "offered a settlement" or that you understand why the court fined you? The court fine was after TfL got no answer; the merits of the case otherwise are a different matter.

I might be able to make some sensible contribution on the letter, but other people can comment who are far more experienced than me, and people sometimes realise different things.

Keep the draft brief, with a focus on points that give them reasons to believe your story.

I haven't asked them for anything yet, I was going to call one in London that would offer free advice and ask them to do the form, do you think that's right?

I think I meant I understand why tfl would have sent me the originally fine (the first letter in December came from them), and if I'd received a fine for travelling without a ticket initially then I would have paid it straight away

 

[some bloke]

Earlier you mentioned "single justice" - did the case begin with a single justice procedure notice rather than a summons?

a plea at the same time as making the stat dec (see instruction 5 on the form, for cases where there was a single justice procedure)?
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-being-prosecuted.190598/page-2#post-4200622

If you don't know, it would be sensible to either try to find out from the court or include a plea anyway to ensure you've met the requirement to get the verdict voided. What you plead might depend on what you'd been convicted for, so if you have time before the 21 days is up for the stat dec, you might want to take more time to think before making the declaration. But below, a poster advised that it's possible to change a not guilty plea to guilty. (The post refers to the passenger sending the declaration to the court; you might take it there. No need for the solicitor to send it.)

You can include a letter to the effect of:

"I am unaware if this conviction resulted from a Summons, Postal Requisition or a Single Justice Procedure Notice. In all cases, I wish to appear in court to deliver my not guilty plea in person"
​

You can change your plea to guilty, if necessary before you appear in court. You should still be entitled to the full discount on your sentence. NB - this only applies if you do not reach an agreement with the TOC.

Make sure you copy the SD and your letter, send the letter SignedFor. Check with the court a couple of days later that they have it and will be actioning it.

Offer to pay for the stat dec and make sure it's clear that the free advice is a separate matter. On the fee, perhaps: "I've seen something about a standard fee: can I just check it would be £5?"
https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/suppo...ce-service/q-and-as/fee-for-swearing-an-oath/

For finding solicitors dealing with crime, this narrows them down further by accreditation:
https://solicitors.lawsociety.org.u...OfPractice1=CRG&Accreditation=CLAS1&Language=

why tfl would have sent me the originally fine

Courts impose fines. Is it a settlement offer? It may be helpful to the solicitor and TfL to use their language.

It may be best to have the paperwork, and/or documents on a device, ready for the solicitor - including the TfL documents above, as the part about using your flatmate's registered card is unusual.

 

[some bloke]

In case you've read the post above, I've edited it to make clear that @Puffing Devil was referring to the possibility of a plea change to guilty.

 

[Jo81]

Update: when I rang the courts they submitted a statutory declaration on my behalf, so unfortunately I think I need to go to court and could then be asked to plea. Is there a chance tfl will settle with me out of court before I have to do this?

 

[some bloke]

Update: when I rang the courts they submitted a statutory declaration on my behalf, so unfortunately I think I need to go to court and could then be asked to plea. Is there a chance tfl will settle with me out of court before I have to do this?

They can drop a prosecution at any time, and you can write to them any time, but they may not do anything until the court tells them the conviction is void.

It may help people on here if you say what you were convicted of.

I'm not quite sure what you mean has happened about the declaration. Maybe you mean the staff are setting an appointment for you to make the declaration before magistrates in court, or before a court officer.