• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Please help! Facing prosecution for an invalid oyster

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jo81

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2019
Messages
38
Location
London
That's a fair point, but again, had they been able to contact the OP then it would all have been resolved at a much earlier stage in the process, and certainly before court.
Unfortunately I don't think it would have, as they did not issue me a penalty fare they just went straight for prosecution :/ The very first letter that was sent was a Single Justice Procedure Notice stating I had been charged with this offence and I must respond to them with my plea : not guilty (appear in court)/ guilty (want to appear in court)/ guilty (don't want to appear in court).
I don't know if this is TFL protocol, or if they are legally supposed to send you a penalty fare first and then take it to court if you don't pay? My friend at tfl says I should have been issued a penalty fare straight away, but the courts say they're within their rights to prosecute immediately...
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Jo81

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2019
Messages
38
Location
London
UPDATE: a slightly condensed letter!
Thank you all so much for your help on this - I have been advised to contact my MP/Sadiq Khan/any journalists I know as well, if anyone has any tips for that I'd really appreciate it

Dear TFL customer prosecution,

I'm writing in regards to case ****** in which I have been charged with being in a compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket,under Byelaw 17 (1) of the TFL railway byelaw. I was charged with this offence without my knowledge as the first correspondence relating to the case was posted to me 4 months after the incident, by which time I had moved house.
I have since been forwarded the original letter from South London Magistrates' Court and have attached here for your reference.
I have submitted a statutory declaration form which has been processed and accepted. You should receive correspondence from SLMC confirming that the case has been reset (please see attached email from them).

I'm writing to you to request this charge is dropped. On the date of the incident I was in possession of a valid ticket and was given permission to travel by a member of TFL staff.

On 17th August 2018 my oyster card was not working when I tried to touch in at Hackney Downs, despite my adding a 1 month Z1-3 travelcard to it within a month of this date, and therefore had a valid ticket which was pre-paid for. Please see attached my bank statement which shows I paid £153.60 (the price in 2018) at a Greater Anglia ticket office on 31st July 2018. Unfortunately the oyster had been bent after so much use and had stopped working on this morning.
The member of staff at Hackney Downs opened the ticket barrier for me anyway, and told me I'd need to explain it to the staff at Liverpool St.

I told the staff at Liverpool St that my oyster card was not working, and that I'd been able to travel because the staff member at Hackney Downs had allowed me access. He took down my details and let me exit through the ticket barrier without issuing me a penalty fare.

Under byelaw 17 (3) (iii), it states that:
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

I recognise there is a requirement to touch in and out with a valid ticket, however I had been allowed access through the ticket barrier on this day and so reasonably assumed I had liscence to travel. If the man who let me through the barrier was indeed authorised to do so, I was not in breach of Byelaw 17 (1), the legislation under which I have been charged. I did not have reason to question this man’s authority, and he did not give a disclaimer that I was undertaking a risk by travelling without having touched in. He used his staff pass (??) to open the barriers for me, and told me to "explain to the staff at liverpool st", an instruction which confirms he knew I would be travelling on to Liverpool Street, and should be considered as permission to travel.

On the grounds that I was in possession of a valid ticket, and had permission to travel, I am requesting that TFL drop the charges with no further payment due from myself.

Yours sincerely,
 

Brissle Girl

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
2,658
That looks much better/more concise. I'd probably give them a chance to reply before you start to raise the issue with others, because it is only on receipt of your email that they will be in full possession of the facts.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
16,132
Location
0036
It was an oyster I was trying to travel with, and I'd put a monthly travel card on the oyster about 2 weeks before this date. As I mentioned earlier, the oyster card was registered to my friend
Then why were you using it? Oyster cards with a discount or season ticket loaded are non-transferable.

edited to add: sorry I see this has been answered earlier in the thread
 

Jo81

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2019
Messages
38
Location
London
That looks much better/more concise. I'd probably give them a chance to reply before you start to raise the issue with others, because it is only on receipt of your email that they will be in full possession of the facts.
Thank you for your feedback it's very much appreciated.
 

Jo81

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2019
Messages
38
Location
London
Does anyone know for sure if it is standard TFL procedure to issue a penalty fare first before taking it to court? I'm trying to find out but going down a bit of a Google rabbit hole
Because if it is then obviously they've not followed protocol by going straight for prosecution
 

jumble

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2011
Messages
1,112
UPDATE: a slightly condensed letter!
Thank you all so much for your help on this - I have been advised to contact my MP/Sadiq Khan/any journalists I know as well, if anyone has any tips for that I'd really appreciate it

Dear TFL customer prosecution,

I'm writing in regards to case ****** in which I have been charged with being in a compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket,under Byelaw 17 (1) of the TFL railway byelaw. I was charged with this offence without my knowledge as the first correspondence relating to the case was posted to me 4 months after the incident, by which time I had moved house.
I have since been forwarded the original letter from South London Magistrates' Court and have attached here for your reference.
I have submitted a statutory declaration form which has been processed and accepted. You should receive correspondence from SLMC confirming that the case has been reset (please see attached email from them).

I'm writing to you to request this charge is dropped. On the date of the incident I was in possession of a valid ticket and was given permission to travel by a member of TFL staff.

On 17th August 2018 my oyster card was not working when I tried to touch in at Hackney Downs, despite my adding a 1 month Z1-3 travelcard to it within a month of this date, and therefore had a valid ticket which was pre-paid for. Please see attached my bank statement which shows I paid £153.60 (the price in 2018) at a Greater Anglia ticket office on 31st July 2018. Unfortunately the oyster had been bent after so much use and had stopped working on this morning.
The member of staff at Hackney Downs opened the ticket barrier for me anyway, and told me I'd need to explain it to the staff at Liverpool St.

I told the staff at Liverpool St that my oyster card was not working, and that I'd been able to travel because the staff member at Hackney Downs had allowed me access. He took down my details and let me exit through the ticket barrier without issuing me a penalty fare.

Under byelaw 17 (3) (iii), it states that:
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

I recognise there is a requirement to touch in and out with a valid ticket, however I had been allowed access through the ticket barrier on this day and so reasonably assumed I had liscence to travel. If the man who let me through the barrier was indeed authorised to do so, I was not in breach of Byelaw 17 (1), the legislation under which I have been charged. I did not have reason to question this man’s authority, and he did not give a disclaimer that I was undertaking a risk by travelling without having touched in. He used his staff pass (??) to open the barriers for me, and told me to "explain to the staff at liverpool st", an instruction which confirms he knew I would be travelling on to Liverpool Street, and should be considered as permission to travel.

On the grounds that I was in possession of a valid ticket, and had permission to travel, I am requesting that TFL drop the charges with no further payment due from myself.




Yours sincerely,

I may be repeating myself but I really struggle with the unnecessary complication of this reply
I would simply say that I was in the compulsory ticket area in zones 1 and 2 with a valid 1 to 3 zone travelcard and therefore the assertion that you did not have a valid ticket is incorrect.

As this is the case you did not need anyone's permission or license to travel without a ticket and so the staff member letting you in is completely irrelevant and likely to confuse
I do not believe that TFL can reasonably maintain because you did not touch in the the travelcard is somehow invalid.
The bank statement entry proves nothing as it could refer to a travelcard that you bought on behalf of someone else

I personally think Your biggest problem is posting so much detail here as if TFL may well be easily able identify you and they will see that you have admitted that the card was registered to someone else
 

Jo81

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2019
Messages
38
Location
London
I may be repeating myself but I really struggle with the unnecessary complication of this reply
I would simply say that I was in the compulsory ticket area in zones 1 and 2 with a valid 1 to 3 zone travelcard and therefore the assertion that you did not have a valid ticket is incorrect.

As this is the case you did not need anyone's permission or license to travel without a ticket and so the staff member letting you in is completely irrelevant and likely to confuse
I do not believe that TFL can reasonably maintain because you did not touch in the the travelcard is somehow invalid.
The bank statement entry proves nothing as it could refer to a travelcard that you bought on behalf of someone else

I personally think Your biggest problem is posting so much detail here as if TFL may well be easily able identify you and they will see that you have admitted that the card was registered to someone else

I never told them it was registered to someone else (because I didn't even realise it was at the time, I'd been using it for at least 8 months prior to this date and completely forgot it was one she had given me)

Would it be reasonable to say that I had a valid ticket, in addition to this I was given permission to travel and so would not be in breach of this law even if my ticket was invalid?
 

jumble

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2011
Messages
1,112
I never told them it was registered to someone else (because I didn't even realise it was at the time, I'd been using it for at least 8 months prior to this date and completely forgot it was one she had given me)

Would it be reasonable to say that I had a valid ticket, in addition to this I was given permission to travel and so would not be in breach of this law even if my ticket was invalid?

If you want to risk them changing the charge to the much more serious RORA as you would be admiting intent to avoid your fare ...........................
Just keep it simple as previously advised. Not guilty as I had a valid ticket. Let them tell you why you are mistaken
 

Jo81

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2019
Messages
38
Location
London
If you want to risk them changing the charge to the much more serious RORA as you would be admiting intent to avoid your fare ...........................
I don't understand how that's admitting I was intending to avoid my fare? They're charging me with being in breach of a specific byelaw, but a clause in that byelaw says no one is in breach of this law if they are given permission by an authorised person, so therefor I wasn't in breach of the law?
Idk I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just genuinely confused about what to do. I can't prove the ticket was valid because it was registered to someone else, and while I could ask her to get her records from her oyster account I don't want to do that and risk being in trouble for using someone else's oyster card.
The only thing that is concrete is the clause in that byelaw :(
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
7,184
UPDATE: a slightly condensed letter!
Thank you all so much for your help on this - I have been advised to contact my MP/Sadiq Khan/any journalists I know as well, if anyone has any tips for that I'd really appreciate it

Simply ref advice on your question ref contacting the MP / Sadiq Khan.

My advice would be to seek assistance from the appropriate person who represents you (in the sense of a constituency) at the level of government responsible for TfL - I suspect that rather than the Mayor this might be a London Assembly member, and they may be a more effective person to approach. See:
https://www.london.gov.uk/moderngov/mgMemberIndex.aspx?bcr=1
It may also be that you could also contact your MP (they may pass it on to an Assembly member or other appropriate representative if they do not regard it as a 'parliamentary matter' (ie TfL is not accountable to UK Parliament, so therefore not their role as an MP to 'hold it to account' on your behalf vis a vis this problem, or they may use their discretion to raise it for you with TfL - it's up to them really, but no harm in asking).

To do this, I would write a short covering letter to them (Assembly Member and / or MP - if you write to both make it clear to each of them that you have also written to the other as they won't thank you for duplicating things) saying you have this problem, this is why you believe you have been wrongly / unfairly treated, enclose the correspondence, and ask if they can 'intervene on your behalf to try and seek an appropriate resolution' or some such. Make sure your name and postal address is clear so they know you are a constituent.

The main reason to do this is that TfL may have a dedicated correspondence team that deal with elected representative's inquiries, and such a team is likely to be made up of more experienced staff who can examine the case carefully and take a decision. Basically it can help 'cut through' the wall of non responses that other systems get bogged down in.

This would not be to supercede your efforts to resolve it, which you should continue with as you are doing with advice on this site.

I can't advise on going to the press, but always bear in mind they are there to 'sell copy', not to resolve people's problems - but that does not mean it isn't an option you may also wish to consider.
 

Jo81

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2019
Messages
38
Location
London
Simply ref advice on your question ref contacting the MP / Sadiq Khan.

My advice would be to seek assistance from the appropriate person who represents you (in the sense of a constituency) at the level of government responsible for TfL - I suspect that rather than the Mayor this might be a London Assembly member, and they may be a more effective person to approach. See:
https://www.london.gov.uk/moderngov/mgMemberIndex.aspx?bcr=1
It may also be that you could also contact your MP (they may pass it on to an Assembly member or other appropriate representative if they do not regard it as a 'parliamentary matter' (ie TfL is not accountable to UK Parliament, so therefore not their role as an MP to 'hold it to account' on your behalf vis a vis this problem, or they may use their discretion to raise it for you with TfL - it's up to them really, but no harm in asking).

To do this, I would write a short covering letter to them (Assembly Member and / or MP - if you write to both make it clear to each of them that you have also written to the other as they won't thank you for duplicating things) saying you have this problem, this is why you believe you have been wrongly / unfairly treated, enclose the correspondence, and ask if they can 'intervene on your behalf to try and seek an appropriate resolution' or some such. Make sure your name and postal address is clear so they know you are a constituent.

The main reason to do this is that TfL may have a dedicated correspondence team that deal with elected representative's inquiries, and such a team is likely to be made up of more experienced staff who can examine the case carefully and take a decision. Basically it can help 'cut through' the wall of non responses that other systems get bogged down in.

This would not be to supercede your efforts to resolve it, which you should continue with as you are doing with advice on this site.

I can't advise on going to the press, but always bear in mind they are there to 'sell copy', not to resolve people's problems - but that does not mean it isn't an option you may also wish to consider.


Thank you for your advice. I've drafted the below letter to the Assembly Member who represents Hackney residents. I know it still looks quite long, but it fits on 1 page of A4 including space for my address and date at the top. I will attach it to an email and in the body of the email say that I have sent a duplicate letter to my MP, Diane Abbott. Do you think it looks alright? I'm not sure if I've got across what I actually want help with.
I feel like I should email her and my MP before TFL? Or at the same time? Idk...

(I'm aware this thread has just become a back and forth of letter drafting... but I really appreciate everyone's help!)

Dear Jennette Arnold,

I am writing to ask for your assistance as I believe I am being wrongfully prosecuted by Transport For London. They have charged me with being in a compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket, under byelaw 17 (1), on 17th August 2018. I am awaiting a court date from South London Magistrates' Court; however, I plan to write to the TFL prosecution department in the meantime to request the charges are dropped.

This situation has been incredibly stressful, and I have received misinformation and conflicting advice from the courts whilst trying to resolve the matter myself. I am writing to you now to ask for your advice, and if you would please intervene on my behalf to seek an appropriate resolution with TFL.

On the aforementioned date, I was in possession of a valid ticket on my Oyster card. I had paid for a zone 1-3 travelcard on 31st July 2018, and was travelling from zone 2-1, therefore the assertion I did not have a valid ticket is incorrect. I recognise there is a requirement to touch in and out at the ticket barriers in order to travel, however when I tried to touch in that morning the card wasn't working. I have never attempted to evade rail fare and I was not attempting to on this date.

In addition to having a valid ticket, I had been granted permission to travel. The member of TFL staff at Hackney Downs opened the ticket barrier for me and told me to explain that my Oyster was not working to the staff at Liverpool St, an instruction which confirms he knew I would be travelling to Liverpool St despite not having touched in.

Under byelaw 17 (3) (iii), it states that:
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

The staff member at Hackney Downs did not give a disclaimer that I was undertaking a risk by travelling without having touched in, and I had no reason to question his authority to allow me access.

I did not receive a penalty fare for travelling without having touched in, TFL's first action was to prosecute me. The first correspondence relating to the charge was sent to me 4 months after the incident, by which time I had moved home. This meant I was convicted in my absence and over the last year have been pursued by HMCTS and, subsequently, debt collectors, entirely without my knowledge. Fortunately, I have now submitted a statutory declaration form which has been accepted and the case has been reset. The original correspondence has been forwarded to me and I have attached it to this email for your reference.

I believe I have been unfairly treated by TFL in this matter. I reasonably assumed I had permission to travel from the member of staff at Hackney Downs, and I would not have travelled at all if I was told I would be undertaking a risk for not touching in at the ticket barrier.

Any help you can offer me would be enormously appreciated.

Kind regards,
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
7,184
Thank you for your advice. I've drafted the below letter to the Assembly Member who represents Hackney residents. I know it still looks quite long, but it fits on 1 page of A4 including space for my address and date at the top. I will attach it to an email and in the body of the email say that I have sent a duplicate letter to my MP, Diane Abbott. Do you think it looks alright? I'm not sure if I've got across what I actually want help with.
I feel like I should email her and my MP before TFL? Or at the same time? Idk...

(I'm aware this thread has just become a back and forth of letter drafting... but I really appreciate everyone's help!)

Dear Jennette Arnold,

I am writing to ask for your assistance as I believe I am being wrongfully prosecuted by Transport For London. They have charged me with being in a compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket, under byelaw 17 (1), on 17th August 2018. I am awaiting a court date from South London Magistrates' Court; however, I plan to write to the TFL prosecution department in the meantime to request the charges are dropped.

This situation has been incredibly stressful, and I have received misinformation and conflicting advice from the courts whilst trying to resolve the matter myself. I am writing to you now to ask for your advice, and if you would please intervene on my behalf to seek an appropriate resolution with TFL.

On the aforementioned date, I was in possession of a valid ticket on my Oyster card. I had paid for a zone 1-3 travelcard on 31st July 2018, and was travelling from zone 2-1, therefore the assertion I did not have a valid ticket is incorrect. I recognise there is a requirement to touch in and out at the ticket barriers in order to travel, however when I tried to touch in that morning the card wasn't working. I have never attempted to evade rail fare and I was not attempting to on this date.

In addition to having a valid ticket, I had been granted permission to travel. The member of TFL staff at Hackney Downs opened the ticket barrier for me and told me to explain that my Oyster was not working to the staff at Liverpool St, an instruction which confirms he knew I would be travelling to Liverpool St despite not having touched in.

Under byelaw 17 (3) (iii), it states that:
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

The staff member at Hackney Downs did not give a disclaimer that I was undertaking a risk by travelling without having touched in, and I had no reason to question his authority to allow me access.

I did not receive a penalty fare for travelling without having touched in, TFL's first action was to prosecute me. The first correspondence relating to the charge was sent to me 4 months after the incident, by which time I had moved home. This meant I was convicted in my absence and over the last year have been pursued by HMCTS and, subsequently, debt collectors, entirely without my knowledge. Fortunately, I have now submitted a statutory declaration form which has been accepted and the case has been reset. The original correspondence has been forwarded to me and I have attached it to this email for your reference.

I believe I have been unfairly treated by TFL in this matter. I reasonably assumed I had permission to travel from the member of staff at Hackney Downs, and I would not have travelled at all if I was told I would be undertaking a risk for not touching in at the ticket barrier.

Any help you can offer me would be enormously appreciated.

Kind regards,

Thanks Jo81

Generally, yes I do think that is an OK letter to send to an AM / MP. (having read it I think you have got across the following - you are being prosecuted by TfL, you think unfairly because a TfL staff member told you to get on and you believed you had a valid ticket, you had no intention to avoid payment, and you want your elected representative to make representations on your behalf, get TfL to reconsider the case, and drop the prosecution - if that is accurate or close enough then that means you have drafted up what you need to get across OK.

BUT

a) do not hold off contacting TfL as you plan (and thus amend your 1st para - eg 'I have written to TfL but would welcome your help, as a constituent, in getting this resolved'. TfL are a statutory body who ultimately (in theory) should read what you send them, consider it and respond. MPs and AMs are not under those obligations (although I am sure that they will respond to you, but they may be slow / fast whatever, they are not under service standards obligations of the nature that TfL are).

b) It's likely that the AM / MP has no more than 1 or 2 staff to help them deal with casework correspondence like this. They may or may not be skilled in the area, are unlikely to have detailed knowledge of this matter etc etc - so you can't 100% rely on them to solve this (another reason why you need to get on to TfL too, as you plan to do, and have been advised up thread), but they will probably try to help.
Because of this I would also hold on a little bit before sending to AM/MP until early new year full working week is underway (eg send the letter or e-mail on say 8th or 9th of Jan) - increases chances of your letter not getting lost in holiday backlog. It may be worth posting it as well as e-mailing it, (just hand write on the bottom of your signed paper version something like - 'as sent by e-mail on x date')

c) What they will probably do is send on a copy of what you send to the AM/MP to Tfl and ask them to consider the matter in the 'light of the points made by my constituent' or some such, which should help. But they are under no obligation, so you can't rely on that, but I can't see any reason not to ask.

d) chances are the MP/AM / caseworker will read the 1st and last para's before looking more carefully at it [ie - what is this person writing about? / what do they want me to do?] - so I'd maybe amend the very last sentence slightly eg 'any help you can give in raising this with TfL would be enormously appreciated'

Hope this helps. Good luck.
 

jumble

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2011
Messages
1,112
I don't understand how that's admitting I was intending to avoid my fare? They're charging me with being in breach of a specific byelaw, but a clause in that byelaw says no one is in breach of this law if they are given permission by an authorised person, so therefor I wasn't in breach of the law?
Idk I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just genuinely confused about what to do. I can't prove the ticket was valid because it was registered to someone else, and while I could ask her to get her records from her oyster account I don't want to do that and risk being in trouble for using someone else's oyster card.
The only thing that is concrete is the clause in that byelaw :(

I am now going to leave this thread as we are going round in circles
I think TFL will succeed as basically you are telling them the travelcard you used was valid but that you are not willing to prove it
TFL will likely argue that you were given were permission to go through the barriers on the basis that the ticket attendant believed you when you told them that you had a valid ticket which did not work and kindly gave you the benefit of the doubt and not that you were ever given permission to travel without a valid ticket

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

An experienced prosecutor might ask you 3questions all of which will require a yes/no answer
Was your travelcard valid for you to make the journey you made ? yes/no
You are most reluctant to answer yes !
Did you tell the gateline attendant you had a valid travelcard which covered the journey you intended to make ? yes/no
Did the gateline attendant therefore give you permission to travel whilst understanding you did not have a valid ticket ? yes/no

I obviously would follow the other posters advice about going to your MP etc as it cant do any harm but I am sorry to tell you I think that it would be perfectly reasonable for TFL to carry on with prosecuting you as the bottom line seems to be that you were using a travelcard that you were not entitled to use
 
Last edited:

Jo81

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2019
Messages
38
Location
London
I am now going to leave this thread as we are going round in circles
I think TFL will succeed as basically you are telling them the travelcard you used was valid but that you are not willing to prove it
TFL will likely argue that you were given were permission to go through the barriers on the basis that the ticket attendant believed you when you told them that you had a valid ticket which did not work and kindly gave you the benefit of the doubt and not that you were ever given permission to travel without a valid ticket

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

An experienced prosecutor might ask you 3questions all of which will require a yes/no answer
Was your travelcard valid for you to make the journey you made ? yes/no
You are most reluctant to answer yes !
Did you tell the gateline attendant you had a valid travelcard which covered the journey you intended to make ? yes/no
Did the gateline attendant therefore give you permission to travel whilst understanding you did not have a valid ticket ? yes/no

I obviously would follow the other posters advice about going to your MP etc as it cant do any harm but I am sorry to tell you I think that it would be perfectly reasonable for TFL to carry on with prosecuting you as the bottom line seems to be that you were using a travelcard that you were not entitled to use

Thank you for your input. I've contacted my friend who originally gave me the card and she has obtained proof that there was money on it at the time, and proof that TFL refunded her that money since the card was broken.
Appreciate we are going round in circles, I am at a loss as to which argument to go with.
Thanks for your advice
 

Jo81

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2019
Messages
38
Location
London
Thanks Jo81

Generally, yes I do think that is an OK letter to send to an AM / MP. (having read it I think you have got across the following - you are being prosecuted by TfL, you think unfairly because a TfL staff member told you to get on and you believed you had a valid ticket, you had no intention to avoid payment, and you want your elected representative to make representations on your behalf, get TfL to reconsider the case, and drop the prosecution - if that is accurate or close enough then that means you have drafted up what you need to get across OK.

BUT

a) do not hold off contacting TfL as you plan (and thus amend your 1st para - eg 'I have written to TfL but would welcome your help, as a constituent, in getting this resolved'. TfL are a statutory body who ultimately (in theory) should read what you send them, consider it and respond. MPs and AMs are not under those obligations (although I am sure that they will respond to you, but they may be slow / fast whatever, they are not under service standards obligations of the nature that TfL are).

b) It's likely that the AM / MP has no more than 1 or 2 staff to help them deal with casework correspondence like this. They may or may not be skilled in the area, are unlikely to have detailed knowledge of this matter etc etc - so you can't 100% rely on them to solve this (another reason why you need to get on to TfL too, as you plan to do, and have been advised up thread), but they will probably try to help.
Because of this I would also hold on a little bit before sending to AM/MP until early new year full working week is underway (eg send the letter or e-mail on say 8th or 9th of Jan) - increases chances of your letter not getting lost in holiday backlog. It may be worth posting it as well as e-mailing it, (just hand write on the bottom of your signed paper version something like - 'as sent by e-mail on x date')

c) What they will probably do is send on a copy of what you send to the AM/MP to Tfl and ask them to consider the matter in the 'light of the points made by my constituent' or some such, which should help. But they are under no obligation, so you can't rely on that, but I can't see any reason not to ask.

d) chances are the MP/AM / caseworker will read the 1st and last para's before looking more carefully at it [ie - what is this person writing about? / what do they want me to do?] - so I'd maybe amend the very last sentence slightly eg 'any help you can give in raising this with TfL would be enormously appreciated'

Hope this helps. Good luck.

Thank you very much for your advice. I have amended the letters to AM and MP accordingly.
I will send the TFL letter first but am honestly at a loss as to what to include in this letter. I think I'm going to have to get proper legal advice and will call around solictors offices on 2nd January.
 

Jo81

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2019
Messages
38
Location
London
I'm sharing with you all the statement that was given by the Revenue Protection Inspector. I have so many issues with the wording and what was actually recorded...

"I am employed by London Overground as a Revenue Protection Inspector. Whilst inspecting tickets in uniform on Friday 17th August 2018 at 08:18 hours at Liverpool Street station at platform 2, I came across a female passenger who I now know to be ***, upon request to show a ticket she produced an Oyster Card numbered 05568214680, when read with my Revenue Inspection Device (RID) I found it had not been validated at the start of her journey from Hackney Downs. An Oyster Card not validated at the start of a journey is not a valid ticket to travel. I informed her that I believed an offence had been committed and I require her details. She provided: ***name, address, DOB***. I telephoned our name and address checking service to verify these details.
I said "Is this the pass you are using for your journey?" She said "Yes." I said "This pass has not been validated for your journey." She said "It is broken i have to replace it." I said "Do you have any other tickets for your journey?" She said "No." I then advised her that the facts will be reported to Transport for London’s Prosecutions Team for their consideration. Fare avoided £3.50"

1. "i came across" implies I was caught trying to evade fare, which wasn't the case. He didn't come across me, I approached the TFL staff to tell them the oyster wasn't working and he called over the RPI.
2. the RID showed the ticket "had not been VALIDATED at the start of her journey", which I take to mean it hadn't been activated by touching in, not that the ticket itself was invalid (I know that he goes on to say this technically means it isn't a valid ticket, but he didn't check to see if there was money on it, only that I hadn't touched in at the start of my journey.
3. I have NO recollection of being told an offence may have been committed, nor that I was at risk of being prosecuted. Had I been told this, I would ask them to call the staff at HAckney to confirm they'd let me through, and get information from them on how I could follow it up. I would not just forget something like that
4. They haven't recorded ANYTHING I said to them about me having put a monthly travel card on the oyster, or about being let through at Hackney. They way they have recorded our interaction makes me come across as very evasive and non-compliant with one word answers , when actually a lot more was said.

I'm sort of at my whits end with this. As I said, I'll be calling solicitors on the 2nd to see if I can get free legal advice, but do I have much chance here? I almost think I should just plead guilty, get 33% reduction on the fine, and just pay it without going to court. The idea makes my blood boil as I don't believe I have done anything wrong, but also the stress of this situation is just too much to handle. I'm barely eating or sleeping and have just started a new job, so can't afford to be distracted by something as big as this when I should be focusing on my job and learning the ropes.

Again, thank you to everyone for your advice and support. I really do appreciate it
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
16,132
Location
0036
I would read nothing into “I came across”; it is a standard form of wording for statements.
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
3,876
I’d be amazed if the whole first paragraph isn’t a cut and paste job with dates, names etc added in
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
7,184
I'm sharing with you all the statement that was given by the Revenue Protection Inspector. I have so many issues with the wording and what was actually recorded...

"I am employed by London Overground as a Revenue Protection Inspector. Whilst inspecting tickets in uniform on Friday 17th August 2018 at 08:18 hours at Liverpool Street station at platform 2, I came across a female passenger who I now know to be ***, upon request to show a ticket she produced an Oyster Card numbered 05568214680, when read with my Revenue Inspection Device (RID) I found it had not been validated at the start of her journey from Hackney Downs. An Oyster Card not validated at the start of a journey is not a valid ticket to travel. I informed her that I believed an offence had been committed and I require her details. She provided: ***name, address, DOB***. I telephoned our name and address checking service to verify these details.
I said "Is this the pass you are using for your journey?" She said "Yes." I said "This pass has not been validated for your journey." She said "It is broken i have to replace it." I said "Do you have any other tickets for your journey?" She said "No." I then advised her that the facts will be reported to Transport for London’s Prosecutions Team for their consideration. Fare avoided £3.50"

1. "i came across" implies I was caught trying to evade fare, which wasn't the case. He didn't come across me, I approached the TFL staff to tell them the oyster wasn't working and he called over the RPI.
2. the RID showed the ticket "had not been VALIDATED at the start of her journey", which I take to mean it hadn't been activated by touching in, not that the ticket itself was invalid (I know that he goes on to say this technically means it isn't a valid ticket, but he didn't check to see if there was money on it, only that I hadn't touched in at the start of my journey.
3. I have NO recollection of being told an offence may have been committed, nor that I was at risk of being prosecuted. Had I been told this, I would ask them to call the staff at HAckney to confirm they'd let me through, and get information from them on how I could follow it up. I would not just forget something like that
4. They haven't recorded ANYTHING I said to them about me having put a monthly travel card on the oyster, or about being let through at Hackney. They way they have recorded our interaction makes me come across as very evasive and non-compliant with one word answers , when actually a lot more was said.

I'm sort of at my whits end with this. As I said, I'll be calling solicitors on the 2nd to see if I can get free legal advice, but do I have much chance here? I almost think I should just plead guilty, get 33% reduction on the fine, and just pay it without going to court. The idea makes my blood boil as I don't believe I have done anything wrong, but also the stress of this situation is just too much to handle. I'm barely eating or sleeping and have just started a new job, so can't afford to be distracted by something as big as this when I should be focusing on my job and learning the ropes.

Again, thank you to everyone for your advice and support. I really do appreciate it

Obv no harm in seeing if you can get some free solicitors advice, but generally I suspect that the avg solicitor firm's knowledge of fare issues is less than on this forum (but they will be helpful on court related process stuff one would assume). Ultimately they will no doubt say that if you pay them some money they will try to help you - but whether they will resolve it to your satisfaction is another matter.

I'm tempted to think you have prepped your letters, they state your case well, surely you may as well get them sent off as what have you got to loose.
 

some bloke

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
1,561
It may be a good thing that the staff member didn't specifically claim you had a standard retail Oyster. You could ask TfL for evidence that it was.

Also:

Unless there's something to override this, such as in the TfL Conditions of Carriage or Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail Services, doesn't the National Rail Conditions of Travel exemption from the requirement to have a valid ticket mean Jo is innocent, more clearly than the Byelaw exemption?

"6.1.2. Where you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised member of staff or notice of the Train Company whose service you intend to board"
 

some bloke

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
1,561
What exactly did your friend say when applying for the refund? If she said or implied simply that it was a Travelcard rather than her Travelcard, the problem may not exist.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,826
Location
Scotland
"6.1.2. Where you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised member of staff or notice of the Train Company whose service you intend to board"
The devil is, always, in the details - in this case providing sufficient evidence that they were given that permission.
 

some bloke

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
1,561
The devil is, always, in the details - in this case providing sufficient evidence that they were given that permission.
Agreed that it's another matter whether she is believed. Asking TfL to provide evidence for their claim it was a "standard retail Oyster card" may be the stronger line to take.
 
Last edited:

some bloke

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
1,561
The bank statement entry proves nothing as it could refer to a travelcard that you bought on behalf of someone else
Yes, but it's circumstantial evidence.
they will see that you have admitted that the card was registered to someone else
I think that it would be perfectly reasonable for TFL to carry on with prosecuting you as the bottom line seems to be that you were using a travelcard that you were not entitled to use
No-one has said how there could be any such problem under the TfL Conditions of Carriage.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...on-for-an-invalid-oyster.196820/#post-4337777

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...on-for-an-invalid-oyster.196820/#post-4337871
 
Last edited:

some bloke

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
1,561
I can see two potential problems if the friend said it was her Travelcard:

1) TfL might be unhappy at being misled (I'm not sure what basis they would have for claiming a loss though)

2) TfL might say it was evidence that this was not @Jo81's Travelcard, and allege that she was not entitled to use it.

If they check the records for that card number, might the check cause a problem?

Would they really turn round and start alleging a different offence (can they even do that under the Statutory Declaration rules, so long after the event)?
 
Last edited:

some bloke

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
1,561
@Jo81, the normal period which prosecutors have for starting a prosecution is six months after the event.

I don't see anything in the Criminal Procedure Rules relating to Statutory Declarations (linked to earlier) that extends that period for anything other than the charge already written.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,826
Location
Scotland
I don't see anything in the Criminal Procedure Rules relating to Statutory Declarations (linked to earlier) that extends that period for anything other than the charge already written.
More importantly, is there anything that specifically prevents them from so doing?
 

some bloke

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
1,561
More importantly, is there anything that specifically prevents them from so doing?
Aren't they barred from starting a RoRA prosecution, or a different Byelaw prosecution, by the standard six-month cutoff?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top