please help - permitted routes

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34D

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Hello,

Currently travelling on return portion of cross gates-Hull CDR. Currently on a hull-doncaster train (planning to change brough) but my son has fallen asleep.

-can I stay on this train to doncaster (or goole) with this ticket

-if not, is there a suitable overdistance excess which would allow me to travel brough-doncaster-wakefield-leeds?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Cancel the emergency.

I picked him up and alighted at Brough, and we got on the TP that I'd planned to catch 5 mins later.

I asked the (very helpful) guard whether we could stay on to Leeds then double back to cross gates, and he put it into his machine, which "recommended changing at Leeds" and I was given a print-out to that effect.

Most useful and helpful.
 
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Solent&Wessex

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As an aside I would suggest that Cross Gates - Hull would not be valid to double back via Leeds. As widely reported Avantix Mobile always gives the quickest journey, not necessarily one which is actually valid.

I cannot find an easement which permits that double back to occur.

NRES concurs that it is not valid and says you need to purchase more than one ticket for that journey.

The only permitted route for the journey is Hull - Cross Gates direct. A route via Doncaster would not be permitted.
 

ian13

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As an aside I would suggest that Cross Gates - Hull would not be valid to double back via Leeds. As widely reported Avantix Mobile always gives the quickest journey, not necessarily one which is actually valid.

I cannot find an easement which permits that double back to occur.

NRES concurs that it is not valid and says you need to purchase more than one ticket for that journey.

The only permitted route for the journey is Hull - Cross Gates direct. A route via Doncaster would not be permitted.

The OP has now been given permission to travel via Leeds though (with some documentation to that effect), and thus - for them - this isn't an issue.
 

34D

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The only permitted route for the journey is Hull - Cross Gates direct. A route via Doncaster would not be permitted.

Given that there are two fares for the journey (direct and any permitted - we had the latter) surely there must be some extra permissions with the any permitted? If not, then why did I pay the extra pound?

I did wonder whether via Whitley Bridge (ie the twice a day Goole-Knottingley-Leeds) was permitted? For an origin of Leeds or Cross Gates, I don't think via York is an option.

The OP has now been given permission to travel via Leeds though (with some documentation to that effect), and thus - for them - this isn't an issue.

Indeed, I was most surprised (but pleased - as it met my goal of sleep for the little one).

I agree that it wouldn't have been valid, save for the permission of an officer of the railway.
 

clagmonster

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The only routeing permission for Hull-Leeds Group is TP.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 480

Map TP only shows the route via Selby.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/maps.pdf page 104

As far as I can see, there is no relevent easement.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/easements.pdf

For the shortest route:
Hull-Garforth 44.5 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 039.pdf
Garforth-Cross Gates 3 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 040.pdf
Total 47.5 miles

Hull-Goole 23.25 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 029.pdf
Goole-Leeds 32.5 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 032.pdf
Leeds-Cross Gates 4.5 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 040.pdf
Total 60.25 miles, so not within 3 miles of the direct route.

Hull-Selby 31 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 039.pdf
Selby-Church Fenton 10.5 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 033.pdf
Church Fenton-Cross Gates 10.25 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 040.pdf
Total 51.75 miles

I can't see a route within 3 miles of the direct route, so I don't see the extra validity offered by route any permitted as opposed to route direct. At one point the any permitted was valid via York, but this has since been removed.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Given that there are two fares for the journey (direct and any permitted - we had the latter) surely there must be some extra permissions with the any permitted? If not, then why did I pay the extra pound?

I did wonder whether via Whitley Bridge (ie the twice a day Goole-Knottingley-Leeds) was permitted? For an origin of Leeds or Cross Gates, I don't think via York is an option.



Indeed, I was most surprised (but pleased - as it met my goal of sleep for the little one).

I agree that it wouldn't have been valid, save for the permission of an officer of the railway.
For Cross Gates (CRG) to Hull (HUL) there are only one set of fares shown in both the fares manual and on my Avantix Mobile machine - all routed Any Permitted. From Garforth, East Garforth and Micklefield there are two sets of fares, one set routed Direct and one set routed Any Permitted. I am not sure why this is the case as I can find no additional validity afforded by the Any Permitted ticket, the only valid map is TP and there are no relevant easements that I can see.

It often amuses me that many people seem very quick to want to complain to the MD, media, passenger focus etc when a member of staff is incompetent and won't sell the tickets asked for, or isn't aware of some particular condition that somebody wishes to use, yet the same people don't seem quite so keen to write to the MD etc when a member of staff is incompetent and lets them get away with something that they know isn't valid.

 
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142094

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There is an easement for some of the stations such as Micklefield to double back via Leeds for interchange purposes when travelling to stations to Selby and beyond, due to the need to use the Northern Blackpool North service. It might be that the guard is getting mixed up with that, but it might be an actual easement. I have done this previously with a York - South Milford ticket and doubled back between Micklefield and Leeds as the connection at Micklefield is terrible.
 

Solent&Wessex

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There is an easement for some of the stations such as Micklefield to double back via Leeds for interchange purposes when travelling to stations to Selby and beyond, due to the need to use the Northern Blackpool North service. It might be that the guard is getting mixed up with that, but it might be an actual easement. I have done this previously with a York - South Milford ticket and doubled back between Micklefield and Leeds as the connection at Micklefield is terrible.

That is not an easement, that is just normal routeing guide rules. There is no specific easement which relates to the OP's journey.

 

clagmonster

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For Cross Gates (CRG) to Hull (HUL) there are only one set of fares shown in both the fares manual and on my Avantix Mobile machine - all routed Any Permitted.
I too can only see Any Permitted in the publicly available sources
From Garforth, East Garforth and Micklefield there are two sets of fares, one set routed Direct and one set routed Any Permitted. I am not sure why this is the case as I can find no additional validity afforded by the Any Permitted ticket, the only valid map is TP and there are no relevant easements that I can see.
In the case of Garforth, there is an easement:
"45
Journeys to Garforth from stations east of Selby may go via York. This easement applies in both directions."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/Easements 30 July 2012.pdf page 3

Like you, I see no extra validity on the any permitted ticket for East Garforth or Micklefield.
 

34D

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For Cross Gates (CRG) to Hull (HUL) there are only one set of fares shown in both the fares manual and on my Avantix Mobile machine - all routed Any Permitted.

My error. Was originally contemplating going from Garforth (where my son and my ex partner live).

From Garforth, East Garforth and Micklefield there are two sets of fares, one set routed Direct and one set routed Any Permitted. I am not sure why this is the case as I can find no additional validity afforded by the Any Permitted ticket, the only valid map is TP and there are no relevant easements that I can see.

From Garforth (and only Garforth) there is the easement 70 I referred to earlier for 'east of selby'. Whilst unintended, the easement actually refers to both the 'direct' and 'any permitted' fares.

It often amuses me that many people seem very quick to want to complain to the MD, media, passenger focus etc when a member of staff is incompetent and won't sell the tickets asked for, or isn't aware of some particular condition that somebody wishes to use, yet the same people don't seem quite so keen to write to the MD etc when a member of staff is incompetent and lets them get away with something that they know isn't valid.

Is this aimed at me? I wouldn't generally contact a TOC when someone shows discretion, for the simple reason that this could get the member of staff into trouble.

I am however always happy to praise good service (the guard was friendly and good with children).
 

Solent&Wessex

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Is this aimed at me? I wouldn't generally contact a TOC when someone shows discretion, for the simple reason that this could get the member of staff into trouble.

I am however always happy to praise good service (the guard was friendly and good with children).

No not aimed at you all, just a generic comment!
 
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Out of intrest, how would you complete this journey today (Sunday) if you cant go via York, Doncaster or Leeds?
 

clagmonster

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You should buy separate tickets, I would suggest Cross Gates-Leeds and Leeds-Hull.
 

34D

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You should buy separate tickets, I would suggest Cross Gates-Leeds and Leeds-Hull.

This is incorrect advice, in my opinion. For example, last sunday, I needed to travel Selby to Micklefield, I purchased from the machine the cheapest ticket (when specifying 'sunday' when it asked me which day) which was 'route direct' then did the most 'direct' journey I could (which for me was outward selby-leeds-micklefield, and return micklefield-leeds-york. In my view, via York woUld also have been reasonable for a Sunday (to clarify, there are no trains Selby-Micklefield and no trains Selby-Church Fenton on a Sunday).
 

clagmonster

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As you say, there are no direct trains. The shortest route with a regular service is the route taken by the Selby-Leeds stoppers, it just happens there is no service by that route on a Sunday. There is no service by any route shown in the National Routeing Guide. Therefore, the correct tickets would be separate tickets applicable to the route being taken.

However, Condition 13 states:
"If you ask them to, the Ticket Seller must advise you on whether your intended route is valid with your ticket."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf
I am unsure as to how this can work with a TVM, as there is no facility to check permitted routes with them. Therefore, I wonder whether TVMs without this facility are actually in breach of the NRCoC. I certainly feel that they should not be selling tickets which can not possibly be used. Whilst I can see that this case is arguable, there will be cases whereby you could buy a ticket to a station with no service, for example a TVM would presumably happily sell a ticket to Barton on Humber on a winter Sunday.

In your case, I suspect that this clause of Condition 13 is a get out, and that, if anything, the guard should be filling a TIR citing issuing error rather than charging an excess, especially if the TVM was the only way to buy a ticket.
 

John @ home

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I agree with 34D that there is no need to buy more than one ticket if a ticket is available for sale dated for the day on which the passenger wishes to travel between the origin and destination shown on the ticket.

For tickets with a validity of one day only, if they are sold by a train company then a contract is completed with the train companies for carriage between the origin and destination on that day.

At the very least, NRCoC Condition 13(a)(ii) gives such a passenger the right to travel by any train taking the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services on that day. Doubling back, that is passing through a station more than once, is allowed when that forms part of such a shortest route.
 

clagmonster

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John, I at least partly agree with you. My argument is more that the ticket shouldn't be sold to begin with. Once the ticket has been sold, a contract has been entered into to convey the passenger to the destination.

However, one side thought. What happens if a passenger purchases a ticket with a validity of one day after the last train to anywhere has departed? This feat which would be possible at many stations.
 

John @ home

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the ticket shouldn't be sold to begin with.
I would not campaign for these tickets not to be sold. When I was a child, if the last Edinburgh suburban train by the shortest route was missed, the ticket was still sold with the instruction "You'll have to go round the long way". I see the feature where booking engines sell tickets Garforth - Selby for travel on Sundays with itineraries via Leeds or via York as a continuation of this.

There are times when it is sensible for the train companies to sell tickets for travel by a reasonable route, not just a Permitted Route. It benefits the train companies and the passenger.

What happens if a passenger purchases a ticket with a validity of one day after the last train to anywhere has departed?
If there was a scheduled train still to run bit it did not actually run, then NRCoC Section H applies. If no train were scheduled, then my view is that for a single incident the ticket holder would be entitled to a full refund and no admin fee could be charged. If this is frequent, then there would appear to be other factors involved which would require investigation.
 
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island

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At the very least, NRCoC Condition 13(a)(ii) gives such a passenger the right to travel by any train taking the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services on that day. Doubling back, that is passing through a station more than once, is allowed when that forms part of such a shortest route.

When would doubling back be the shortest route rather than changing trains?
 

clagmonster

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There are times when it is sensible for the train companies to sell tickets for travel by a reasonable route, not just a Permitted Route. It benefits the train companies and the passenger.
In that case, it begs the question why such routes are not permitted routes, even if just by an easement to allow them to be used at certain times of day or on certain days of the week. Indeed, if there were no Leeds-Selby stoppers on Sundays in 1996 then I would argue that travelling via Leeds or York was reasonable back then, so should be included in the National Routeing Guide.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If there was a scheduled train still to run bit it did not actually run, then NRCoC Section H applies. If no train were scheduled, then my view is that for a single incident the ticket holder would be entitled to a full refund and no admin fee could be charged. If this is frequent, then there would appear to be other factors involved which would require investigation.
I was thinking of the case of buying a ticket after the time of the last scheduled departure. I suppose that, in time, there will be technological advances with TVMs so such instances would be eradicated.
 

Solent&Wessex

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On a Sunday or after 7pm everyday the shortest possiable route between Cross Gates and Hull is via Leeds and doubling back.

Just because there is not a train at the time you wish to travel which is valid for your ticket does not mean, IMO, that you can take any route which isn't normally a permitted route. On a Sunday before 1315 the shortest and quickest route by rail from Bentham to Leeds is via Lancaster and Manchester. Does this mean that a Bentham to Leeds ticket is valid that way? No. There are also many routes and stations without direct trains at certain times of the day or week. I have never tried, but are TVMs clever enough to know which stations have limited or non existent services at times? If a TVM would sell me a ticket from say Manchester to Clifton on a Sunday, would the rail company then be obliged to get me a taxi?

 

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On a Sunday or after 7pm everyday the shortest possiable route between Cross Gates and Hull is via Leeds and doubling back.

I don't think this line of argument will hold.

On weekdays after 2152, the shortest route from Peterborough to Leicester is via London, however I do not see this being accepted as a valid reason for going that way without paying extra.
 

34D

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On a Sunday or after 7pm everyday the shortest possiable route between Cross Gates and Hull is via Leeds and doubling back.

Ah, but last sunday evening I didn't double back ;)

Though I do agree with you that said route would be the shortest on a sunday.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As you say, there are no direct trains.

As you are doubtless aware, 'route direct' is undefined.

At the very least, NRCoC Condition 13(a)(ii) gives such a passenger the right to travel by any train taking the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services on that day. Doubling back, that is passing through a station more than once, is allowed when that forms part of such a shortest route.

I can see why hairyhandedfool may be unhappy with the words in bold, though agree with John that they are needed to add logic and rigor.
 

clagmonster

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As you are doubtless aware, 'route direct' is undefined.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was eliminating, one by one: direct trains, the shortest route and routes allowed by the routeing guide. This was to describe the permitted routes, before we start filtering by route direct.
 

34D

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Just because there is not a train at the time you wish to travel which is valid for your ticket does not mean, IMO, that you can take any route which isn't normally a permitted route. On a Sunday before 1315 the shortest and quickest route by rail from Bentham to Leeds is via Lancaster and Manchester. Does this mean that a Bentham to Leeds ticket is valid that way? No.

Indeed not - one has to wait for the 13:15 train.

There are also many routes and stations without direct trains at certain times of the day or week. I have never tried, but are TVMs clever enough to know which stations have limited or non existent services at times? If a TVM would sell me a ticket from say Manchester to Clifton on a Sunday, would the rail company then be obliged to get me a taxi?


Well of course not silly. You travel there by scheduled services. And if the journey cannot be completed in one day, we have the clause about "to stay in overnight accommodation".

But a selby (or hull) to Micklefield journey can be completed in a day, using scheduled services, by a 'reasonable' route. That is the difference.

You wouldn't buy a Stockport-denton ticket on a friday lunchtime and expect a taxi - you would expect to wait 6.75 days!

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was eliminating, one by one: direct trains, the shortest route and routes allowed by the routeing guide. This was to describe the permitted routes, before we start filtering by route direct.

So what are "trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services" on a sunday? (nrcoc 13aii)
 

34D

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There aren't any.

There is always a shortest.

For example selby-doncaster-south elmsall-leeds-micklefield is a route, of maybe 750 miles in length. Another is selby-hull-bridlington-scarborough-york-micklefield which is maybe 100 ish.

The shortest route has already been given, and I assert that the shortest day (during the day/range of a tickets' validity) is always valid.
 
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