Plug sockets on new trains

[Bald Rick]

Mod Note: This thread has been split from the thread on the 700's here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2653927#post2653927

I've said it before, and will say it again. What is the issue with plug sockets? Can people really not manage to charge their phones / tablets / laptops / hair straighteners* before they get on a train with a typical journey of half an hour, and a max journey of around 2?


* joke obviously. Mine aren't rechargeable.

 

[RobShipway]

Well we don't want passengers who can't read, plugging their devices into sockets clearly marked 'Not for Public Use' do we.



Nothing strange about it at all. The role that the Desiro Citys have on Thameslink is entirely different to the class 455/458 replacements on the Windsor services. The reasons for the fit as ordered has been discussed many times on this thread and its predecessor. The key issue in respect of amenities is not distance but average passenger travelling time anyway.



No, once the core has gone over to ATO, no other trains will be allowed into the core in normal service. So adding accessories like power outlets is not just a few sockets from B&Q and a few wires, you have to order a few million pounds worth of spare trains as well to avoid a shortage of services. I think the better idea is to not argue with those who are making all the fuss and the problem will just go away when a full service of well loaded trains starts in 2019. They'll have their free wi-fi to play with by then anyway. If they are bored, they could then amuse themselves with 'TL Pokemon Go', looking for the mystery tables.
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OK, I didn't notice one. Do you remember where it was located?

My point being if sockets can be provided that are 'Not for public use', then one's that the public can use should also be provided, otherwise there could possibly be people within the public that cannot read especially if they are not English!

I've said it before, and will say it again. What is the issue with plug sockets? Can people really not manage to charge their phones / tablets / laptops / hair straighteners* before they get on a train with a typical journey of half an hour, and a max journey of around 2?


* joke obviously. Mine aren't rechargeable.

I agree with your point Bald Rick and 98% of the time, my mobile has been charged before I leave home in the morning and if not I have a USB device which is also charged each night that can re charge my mobile phone. But not everyone is perfect 100% of the time and not everyone is as well organised.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

My point being if sockets can be provided that are 'Not for public use', then one's that the public can use should also be provided, otherwise there could possibly be people within the public that cannot read especially if they are not English!

The sockets not for public use tend to be devoid of surge protection and can provide a somewhat variable voltage, used with chargers and other electronics, they can fry them. Henry the Hoover tends to be less discerning about voltage, and of course, a stationary vehicle on a depot tends to have a more consistent power supply in any case.

 

[Bald Rick]

I agree with your point Bald Rick and 98% of the time, my mobile has been charged before I leave home in the morning and if not I have a USB device which is also charged each night that can re charge my mobile phone. But not everyone is perfect 100% of the time and not everyone is as well organised.

Being devils advocate then, why should the railway be unique in high density public transport provision to provide plug sockets for people who can't get organised?

I wonder how many disorganised people will forget to go to the toilet before they have an hour on a 707. Circumstances are desperately different if you'll pardon the pun.

 

[cyclebytrain]

I've said it before, and will say it again. What is the issue with plug sockets? Can people really not manage to charge their phones / tablets / laptops / hair straighteners* before they get on a train with a typical journey of half an hour, and a max journey of around 2?


* joke obviously. Mine aren't rechargeable.

That surely depends on what the total journey is? If I start at Brighton station and want to get to St Pancras station or even Cambridge station then sure no problem. On the other hand if the previous leg of the journey was an 8 hour flight into Gatwick with the power sockets tripped out (or just no power sockets on the aircraft) then I'm going to want to charge my laptop / hair straighteners* on the train to Brighton!

* Joke, mine are actually curlers, not straighteners.

 

[AM9]

My point being if sockets can be provided that are 'Not for public use', then one's that the public can use should also be provided, otherwise there could possibly be people within the public that cannot read especially if they are not English!

Well I suppose they could provide one per car like the cleaners' outlets. That would keep the Brighton and Bedford lot happy in the morning as they could bags it as soon as they get on.

 

[RobShipway]

Being devils advocate then, why should the railway be unique in high density public transport provision to provide plug sockets for people who can't get organised?

I wonder how many disorganised people will forget to go to the toilet before they have an hour on a 707. Circumstances are desperately different if you'll pardon the pun.

You could also ask the question as to why most modern buses have usb charging points and/or plug sockets, yet these cannot be found on Thameslink class 700 trains....

Just playing devils advocate!

 

[D365]

You could also ask the question as to why most modern buses have usb charging points and/or plug sockets, yet these cannot be found on Thameslink class 700 trains....

Because fitting the inverters, surge protection and additional cabling throughout a train adds significant weight. Among recent types, the LO Class 378s aren't fitted with outlets - not 'safe' at least.

It's been discussed before so I'm not sure why we have to get into this again. Bearing in mind that none of the current Great Northern trains are fitted with any technological amenities, I don't see it as a problem at all.

 

[Bald Rick]

You could also ask the question as to why most modern buses have usb charging points and/or plug sockets, yet these cannot be found on Thameslink class 700 trains....

Just playing devils advocate!

The brand new buses I use don't!

 

[transmanche]

Being devils advocate then, why should the railway be unique in high density public transport provision to provide plug sockets for people who can't get organised?

Not unique at all. A large proportion of Arriva and Go-Ahead buses in and around Newcastle have 3-pin and USB plug sockets nowadays.

 

[Bald Rick]

That surely depends on what the total journey is? If I start at Brighton station and want to get to St Pancras station or even Cambridge station then sure no problem. On the other hand if the previous leg of the journey was an 8 hour flight into Gatwick with the power sockets tripped out (or just no power sockets on the aircraft) then I'm going to want to charge my laptop / hair straighteners* on the train to Brighton!

* Joke, mine are actually curlers, not straighteners.

In which case, an extra half hour or so on the train isn't going to hurt that much.

By the way, are your curlers rechargeable? Impressive.

 

[jon0844]

I've said it before, and will say it again. What is the issue with plug sockets? Can people really not manage to charge their phones / tablets / laptops / hair straighteners* before they get on a train with a typical journey of half an hour, and a max journey of around 2?

* joke obviously. Mine aren't rechargeable.

Going forward, just put USB ports with 5-18V output support. Should charge just about anything (including many new laptops) going forward and take up less room. Maybe one day just have wireless charging support in the tables.

Heck, you could restrict the power output to 5V and 2 or 3A if you so wished - as people don't necessarily need the fastest charging. If you're on a long journey, you have plenty of time and if it's just hopping on and off after a couple of stops in the core, it isn't going to make much difference anyway (and hardly be worth the hassle).

The brand new buses I use don't!

Around here, Arriva don't have them on the buses they run through Hatfield/Hertford/Broxbourne/Cheshunt and Uno has one bus I think - with USB ports and Wi-Fi.

A bus that seems quite unique in that it promotes the University on the outside.

In St Albans a fair few services from different operators have Wi-Fi and/or power sockets (or just USB) but I can't imagine it's commonplace everywhere yet.

What London buses have them?

 

[asylumxl]

Going forward, just put USB ports with 5-18V output support. Should charge just about anything (including many new laptops) going forward and take up less room. Maybe one day just have wireless charging support in the tables.

Heck, you could restrict the power output to 5V and 2 or 3A if you so wished - as people don't necessarily need the fastest charging. If you're on a long journey, you have plenty of time and if it's just hopping on and off after a couple of stops in the core, it isn't going to make much difference anyway (and hardly be worth the hassle).




Around here, Arriva don't have them on the buses they run through Hatfield/Hertford/Broxbourne/Cheshunt and Uno has one bus I think - with USB ports and Wi-Fi.

A bus that seems quite unique in that it promotes the University on the outside.

In St Albans a fair few services from different operators have Wi-Fi and/or power sockets (or just USB) but I can't imagine it's commonplace everywhere yet.

What London buses have them?

Arriva have them on their "Sapphire" services. The 321 from Luton to Watford via St Albans, as well the 100/101/102 which operates from Luton to Stevenage via Hitchin, have USB sockets. While I use the latter a lot I've never really used them much, but that's probably as most of my cables are USB-C to USB-C nowadays

 

[Surreytraveller]

Difference with buses and trains is the bus companies need to attract passengers, the train companies don't.

 

[cyclebytrain]

In which case, an extra half hour or so on the train isn't going to hurt that much.

By the way, are your curlers rechargeable? Impressive.

I disagree, not being able to phone a wife / taxi to let them know which train to pick me up from is an issue that didn't matter on the plane. And since I'll obviously need to sooth a wife who's been sat at the station waiting for me and has seen several trains arrive without me because she didn't know which one I caught, I'll need to recharge these* curlers: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Portable-Cordless-Curling-Rechargeable-Baby-Pink/dp/B00IQ7JQP4

*I dread to think what this will do to my Amazon product suggestions...

 

[AlexNL]

It is also strange that the class 707 trains, which will be almost identical to the class 700 trains accept that the 707's will not have any toilets will have tables, plug sockets and wifi whereas the class 700's where not ordered with these, yet travel a longer distance!

I guess SWT have a better understanding of what their passengers want than the people who ordered the 700's - as those people aren't part of the TOC at all! Simply put, the people who have specced and ordered the 700's are more interested in getting the best value for money, and less interested in what the travelling public wants or needs.

Plug sockets, wi-fi and tables aren't big things, but they add value to the overall product and give the passenger a feeling that they get better value for money as this helps them to work or relax while they're traveling. The lack thereof clearly shows where the priorities were; moving as much people as possible for the same price.

If DfT wants to right this wrong they should act now, in order for Siemens to be able to fit these items to the part of the fleet that hasn't been built yet. A retrofitting programme can then be started once all 700's are in operation, although it would take several years to complete as just a few sets can be retrofitted without this affecting TL services.

Hopefully those Fainsa seats can easily get tables bolted on to them...

 

[Bungaroosh]

Nothing strange about it at all. The role that the Desiro Citys have on Thameslink is entirely different to the class 455/458 replacements on the Windsor services. The reasons for the fit as ordered has been discussed many times on this thread and its predecessor. The key issue in respect of amenities is not distance but average passenger travelling time anyway.

And this average is arrived at by combining wildly divergent journey durations.

When I lived in Herne Hill and commuted to Blackfriars, my journey was 10 minutes. Then when I commuted reasonably regularly from Brighton to Farringdon on the same train type it was near 90 minutes.

As I'm in the privileged position of always getting a seat on a morning start, I have to say my favourite train on the Brighton main line is the soon to disappear 442 Wessex Electric. It would have been useless on the Thameslink route and is terrible for suitcase-wielding Gatwick users with its high step and narrow doors, but as a fast train between Brighton and London it's fantastic -- intercity standard. No wifi, no plug sockets, but seat back tables and super-comfortable seats. If I had to choose just one aspect out of these, give me the latter any day!

You do wonder with modern lightweight materials -- could someone invent a comfortable seat base (that your backside rests upon)? This is my main gripe with the 700s. When I lived in Herne Hill I wouldn't care, but now I live in Brighton it's definitely an issue. They're about as uncomfortable as the 387 Gatwick Express trains that are replacing the 442s (and which I have heard a lot of commuters whinge about and compare unfavourably with the 442s as they lift their numb backsides at Victoria).

 

[AM9]

I guess SWT have a better understanding of what their passengers want than the people who ordered the 700's - as those people aren't part of the TOC at all! Simply put, the people who have specced and ordered the 700's are more interested in getting the best value for money, and less interested in what the travelling public wants or needs.

Plug sockets, wi-fi and tables aren't big things, but they add value to the overall product and give the passenger a feeling that they get better value for money as this helps them to work or relax while they're traveling. The lack thereof clearly shows where the priorities were; moving as much people as possible for the same price.

If DfT wants to right this wrong they should act now, in order for Siemens to be able to fit these items to the part of the fleet that hasn't been built yet. A retrofitting programme can then be started once all 700's are in operation, although it would take several years to complete as just a few sets can be retrofitted without this affecting TL services.

Hopefully those Fainsa seats can easily get tables bolted on to them...

Under the current privatised set-up, the DfT has a duty to direct and where necessary, finance infrastructure and rolling stock from public funds. The railway is currently funded 70% from travellers and 30% from the public purse, - the same purse that pays for health, roads, education, defence and many other things that we the public need. Strange as it may seem, the majority of the UK public aren't London commuters, and don't regard power outlets, seat-back tables and arm rests for travellers using brand-new trains in the south-east that important in the general scheme of things. Maybe some here think that they can justify them as a priority, but with the general tightening of budgets that Brexit might cause, I would imagine that most adults in the UK would see that as just pure selfishness.

 

[Bishopstone]

The reason TOCs/DFT should seek to provide some sockets - not necessarily at every pair of seats - is that a significant number of their customers indicate they would value this feature, and installation is feasible on new stock.

Likewise, seat back tables. And WiFi.

It's not for the railway to argue people should be more organised, drink less caffeine and waste less time on Twitter, though all three may well be true.

Desiring a plug socket between Brighton and Cambridge is less eccentric, in my view, than requiring a bed between Euston and Edinburgh, or a silver service luncheon between Paddington and Taunton when passengers in Standard are arranged three to every WC cubicle.

 

[Goldfish62]

Difference with buses and trains is the bus companies need to attract passengers, the train companies don't.

Not needing to attract customers is a novel approach to running a business, but I know what you are trying to say.
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They keep saying they could be done during a mid-life refresh. If we were to take that literally that's decades away, but my money is that they'll quietly drop the idea once people get used to it and complaints die down.

Modern Railways clearly states that tables and WiFi are a current proposal, and goes on to describe the issues with retrofitting tables.

 

[absolutelymilk]

The reason TOCs/DFT should seek to provide some sockets - not necessarily at every pair of seats - is that a significant number of their customers indicate they would value this feature, and installation is feasible on new stock.

If Thameslink was short of passengers, then spending money on these things would be a good idea to attract more. As they currently have the opposite problem, of having too many passengers, then perhaps spending that money on staff to help with loading isn't a bad idea...

 

[rebmcr]

Can people really not manage to charge their phones / tablets / laptops / hair straighteners* before they get on a train with a typical journey of half an hour, and a max journey of around 2?


* joke obviously. Mine aren't rechargeable.

Someone who is out and about all day, running down the battery with maps and communication, who takes the train to a client where they need access still, or before an evening out, will be very thankful of the opportunity to recharge.

 

[route:oxford]

I've just sent off my complaint to Virgin as the sockets weren't working on the Pendolino I used last week.

They worked perfectly on the X90 from Baker Street though. The integrated USB is very useful.

 

[pemma]

Mod Note: This thread has been split from the thread on the 700's here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2653927#post2653927

I've said it before, and will say it again. What is the issue with plug sockets? Can people really not manage to charge their phones / tablets / laptops / hair straighteners* before they get on a train with a typical journey of half an hour, and a max journey of around 2?


* joke obviously. Mine aren't rechargeable.

Last time I used the plug sockets on a train was on a 5.5 hour journey from Montreal to Toronto. I needed to make sure my tablet was fully charged ahead of the 7 hour flight from Toronto to Manchester.

 

[Bungle965]

I've just sent off my complaint to Virgin as the sockets weren't working on the Pendolino I used last week.

They worked perfectly on the X90 from Baker Street though. The integrated USB is very useful.

Did you ask the guard when/if he came round if he could do anything about it obviously it is not ideal in the first place but the guard can reset it which could have sorted out the problem.
Sam

 

[Tetchytyke]

Lets be honest, the reason why the 700s don't have plugs and WiFi for the simple reason that DafT screwed up the procurement. And now it'll be too expensive to sort it because of the clauses in the contract; another DafT screw up.

My bus to the station had WiFi and plugs. My plane to Dubai had WiFi and plugs. If Emirates can run reliable WiFi at 38,000 feet, it should be a doddle on Thameslink.

 

[AM9]

Lets be honest, the reason why the 700s don't have plugs and WiFi for the simple reason that DafT screwed up the procurement. And now it'll be too expensive to sort it because of the clauses in the contract; another DafT screw up.

My bus to the station had WiFi and plugs. My plane to Dubai had WiFi and plugs. If Emirates can run reliable WiFi at 38,000 feet, it should be a doddle on Thameslink.

And what is the dwell time on the Emirates plane to Dubai?

 

[AlterEgo]

And what is the dwell time on the Emirates plane to Dubai?

Are you sure you're talking about dwell time? What's that got to do with wifi?

 

[GatwickDepress]

And what is the dwell time on the Emirates plane to Dubai?

Ask passengers on the 377/6s and 377/7s instead... high density metro services and yet, miraculously, they see to be able to unplug their electrical devices before the doors open. Shocker!

Arriva have them on their "Sapphire" services. The 321 from Luton to Watford via St Albans, as well the 100/101/102 which operates from Luton to Stevenage via Hitchin, have USB sockets. While I use the latter a lot I've never really used them much, but that's probably as most of my cables are USB-C to USB-C nowadays

5 and 6 in Milton Keynes as well. The provision of USB sockets is even advertised on the back of the bus. After a hard day till-jockeying, it's nice to know I can spend my half hour listening to music without fear of sudden phone death.

 

[AM9]

Ask passengers on the 377/6s and 377/7s instead... high density metro services and yet, miraculously, they see to be able to unplug their electrical devices before the doors open. Shocker!

377s, like all Electrostars except 376s & 378s don't run high density, at least not at all well. The doors take too long to open, the seats have arms and tables which get in the way and passengers squeeze along the narrow aisles. Just look at the delays on the Thameslink core.