Plusbus in PTE areas

[TUC]

Plusbus tickets are not available for journeys wholly within PTE areas. Why is this? The Plusbus website gives two reasons.

Firstly it seems to treat PTE areas as equivalent to towns and Plusbus isn't available for train and bus journeys within the same town. The problem is that PTE areas are much bigger than towns. West Yorkshire for example is over forty miles wide.

The second reason gives is that PTE areas operate their own integrated bus and rail tickets. Yes they do, but these can be more restrictive than Plusbus tickets. West Yorkshire's Day Rover, for example, is not available at peak times on trains. They can also be more expensive than an equivalent Plusbus ticket would have been.

Do PTEs block the use of Plusbus tickets due to their role in setting local rail fares? If so, quite apart from the unreasonable nature of such an approach, I question whether their fare-setting role should actually block Plusbus. Plusbus is an add-on over and above the standard rail fare so, as long as the rail fare set by the PTE is being charged, why should that block Plusbus from being available on top?

 

[yorkie]

They want you to buy the relevant PTE product and do not want to undercut them.

 

[Haywain]

They want you to buy the relevant PTE product and do not want to undercut them.

And quite reasonably so. Plusbus is really designed to encourage use of buses by people fron outside the areas concerned and the approach in PTE areas is entirely consistent with this. As is the way it is designed, in having the PLusbus tickets offered only from the main railhead stations within each area.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Plusbus is available in the GMPTE area, which is consistent with the above: visitors to Greater Manchester from outside can buy cheaper bus day rangers than residents

 

[TUC]

They want you to buy the relevant PTE product and do not want to undercut them.

Yes but my question is whether the PTEs have the power to stop a Plusbus add-on being available. TOCs will probably receive more revenue from a rail ticket with Plusbus than they do from their share of a PTE day ticket, and participation is a commercial decision for bus operators, nothing to do with the PTE. Therefore, from a commercial standpoint there's good reason to make Plusbus available.

 

[Haywain]

PTEs sponsor the public transport services within their area so they definitely have a say about ticketing and can therefore limit the availability of Plusbus. It is because of the PTE sponsorship that the Plusbus areas are so large.

 

[TUC]

And quite reasonably so. Plusbus is really designed to encourage use of buses by people fron outside the areas concerned and the approach in PTE areas is entirely consistent with this. .

But part of the problem is what is meant by 'outside the area'. If I was travelling the 14 miles from Selby to York at 0700 I could get a York Plusbus ticket. If I was travelling the 15 miles from Halifax to Leeds at that time I can't get any kind of bus/rail ticket. That seems illogical.

 

[Haywain]

Geographic boundaries are frequently illogical. That's just the way things are. As a result people in Halifax benefit from the munificence of West Yorkshire PTE and people in Selby don't.

 

[ashworth]

People living in PTE areas often get fantastic cheap bus day tickets in comparison to many more rural counties. In recent years I've taken short breaks in West Yorkshire, Greater Manchester and The West Midlands where you can buy day bus tickets valid over a huge area on all operators for between £4 and £6. To travel around Nottinghamshire for a day, outside of the city boundary where I live, using different operators in the way that you can in PTE areas could cost in excess of £20. Just using the two main bus operators in the county Trent/Barton and Stagecoach would cost £12 for a day without adding additional journeys from many of the smaller operators. It costs £3.50 single just to make the 7 mile journey from my village into Nottingham on one bus.

Those living in PTE areas have it good regarding bus fares and travel opportunities. Don't get me started on the fact that in the more rural counties there are no buses, even between large market towns, after 6pm and on Sunday. As a visitor to these PTE areas I think it's great that a Plusbus ticket enables me to travel throughout such a huge area during a day visit.

 

[yorkie]

But part of the problem is what is meant by 'outside the area'. If I was travelling the 14 miles from Selby to York at 0700 I could get a York Plusbus ticket. If I was travelling the 15 miles from Halifax to Leeds at that time I can't get any kind of bus/rail ticket. That seems illogical.

We don't do distance based pricing, but I will accept people will look at distances and will use that as a measure of value (there are other measures as well, such as frequency, convenience etc)

In this case, the overall cost is roughly the same:

Halifax - Leeds + MetroDay £7.60 + £5.50 £13.10
Selby - York + PlusBus £9.60 + £3.00 = £12.60

And, although the Halifax-Leeds example costs more, it's only 50p more, and for that you get a much more frequent train service, and a vastly more comprehensive bus service (and you could use buses at both the start and end of your rail journey, with generally better frequencies and over much greater distances than York).

 

[Tetchytyke]

It depends on the PTE area. In Tyne and Wear the PlusBus areas are restricted to the city (and in the case of the Newcastle one, not even the full boundary of Newcastle City). You can buy a PlusBus at either end with a Sunderland-Newcastle return.

Comparing Selby to Leeds and Sowerby Bridge to Leeds (both about 20 miles)

SBY-LDS + Plusbus = £11.20+£3 = £14.20
SOW-LDS + MetroDay = £8.80+£5.50 = £14.30

 

[TUC]

We don't do distance based pricing, but I will accept people will look at distances and will use that as a measure of value (there are other measures as well, such as frequency, convenience etc)

In this case, the overall cost is roughly the same:

Halifax - Leeds + MetroDay £7.60 + £5.50 £13.10
Selby - York + PlusBus £9.60 + £3.00 = £12.60

And, although the Halifax-Leeds example costs more, it's only 50p more, and for that you get a much more frequent train service, and a vastly more comprehensive bus service (and you could use buses at both the start and end of your rail journey, with generally better frequencies and over much greater distances than York).

I wasn't meaning in the sense of distance-based pricing. I meant in terms of treating everyone in a PTE area as equivalent as being in the same town as illogical when it involves a 14 mile journey.

The problem with the MetroDay/Plusbus comparison you make is that:
a) Plusbus is available at all times. MetroDay is not valid on trains at peak times and
b) Railcards can be used with the rail element (and in some cases the bus element) of a Plusbus ticket. MetroDay can therefore be more expensive by comparison for passengers with railcards.

 

[yorkie]

I wasn't meaning in the sense of distance-based pricing. I meant in terms of treating everyone in a PTE area as equivalent as being in the same town as illogical when it involves a 14 mile journey.

I'm not sure how much logic comes into this sort of thing

The problem with the MetroDay/Plusbus comparison you make is that:
a) Plusbus is available at all times. MetroDay is not valid on trains at peak times and

The MetroDay ticket I quoted, at £5.50, is a bus only ticket valid all day. See http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/moresavings/WestYorkshireDayRover/

b) Railcards can be used with the rail element (and in some cases the bus element) of a Plusbus ticket. MetroDay can therefore be more expensive by comparison for passengers with railcards.

Agreed, however if a big fuss is made of this being unfair, we all know what the 'solution' would be! In fact, if you're applying logic to this, the solution becomes all the more obviously not in our favour!!!

 

[Starmill]

Typically the PTE product will only be a touch more expensive than the cost of the return (except for very short train journeys) and a plusbus. The combined WY bus and rail ticket has the advantage of permitting unlimited rail journeys though.

This isn't something to be worried about. What absolutely is ridiculous is that there is no 'peak' or 'Anytime' version of the WY travelcards that costs a few pounds more and permits travel all day.

 

[Haywain]

It is often the case that Plusbus is cheaper than the locally available product. Where I live, the multi-operator Plusbus is cheaper than a single operator day ticket. This is part of the deal of buying it as an add-on to a rail journey.

 

[sheff1]

Plusbus is really designed to encourage use of buses by people fron outside the areas concerned ..

Is that really so ?

Whenever I book a rail ticket from Sheffield to any destination outside S Yorkshire I am invited to buy a Plusbus add-on to ease my journey to and from Sheffield station.

Looking further afield, stations such as Welwyn Garden City, Potters Bar, Berkhampsted and a whole raft of similarly sized small towns in the South East have Plusbus. My, admittedly non-local, assumption has always been that Plusbus Season tickets in such places were aimed at residents of those towns who are commuting out, primarily to London .. rather than 'outsiders' travelling into the small town.

 

[ess]

Of course it should be easy to understand and consistent. So if there are buses from around a train station then there should be plusbus. If there are other PTE products also then fair enough but it shouldn't be yet another area of ticketing where you need to be educated.

Of course, that's not the case.

 

[edwin_m]

Is that really so ?

Whenever I book a rail ticket from Sheffield to any destination outside S Yorkshire I am invited to buy a Plusbus add-on to ease my journey to and from Sheffield station.

Looking further afield, stations such as Welwyn Garden City, Potters Bar, Berkhampsted and a whole raft of similarly sized small towns in the South East have Plusbus. My, admittedly non-local, assumption has always been that Plusbus Season tickets in such places were aimed at residents of those towns who are commuting out, primarily to London .. rather than 'outsiders' travelling into the small town.

Perhaps fairer to say that they encourage use of buses to access trains at both ends of the journey and therefore provide an alternative to driving either to the station or for the whole journey. Using Plusbus from your home to the station does of course have the major disadvantage that you either have to visit the station beforehand to collect it, or order online far enough in advance to get it posted and pay the extra for doing so.