Police checking travel

[Chriso]

Dear all

On the 27/12/20 I encountered a couple of BTP officers at High Wycombe platform 2 (northbound) asking everyone where they were travelling and for what reason. One young man was given a face mask as he didn’t have one. Both officers were courteous and polite and I assume they were making sure nobody was fleeing tier 4.

Just wondering if anyone else has had any similar experiences?

 

[Tom Quinne]

Valid ticket to travel, politely tell them it’s none of their business.

It’s comforting to know they there is so little actual crime, such as assaults on staff, trespass etc that BTP can task resources asking people question they don’t have any power to force an answer from.

 

[vvd]

Yes i was accosted by BTP and given a fine for not wearing a mask and not being able to `prove` my exemption. This on the concourse at Leeds station. Disgarceful approach from BTP.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes i was accosted by BTP and given a fine for not wearing a mask and not being able to `prove` my exemption. This on the concourse at Leeds station. Disgarceful approach from BTP.

Did you challenge it in Court, or did you pay, out of interest? If you did have a valid reason for exemption (e.g. one of the listed medical conditions) that would be easy to prove, though more difficult if it was a psychological reason such as the "extreme panic" reason.

 

[davetheguard]

Yes i was accosted by BTP and given a fine for not wearing a mask and not being able to `prove` my exemption. This on the concourse at Leeds station. Disgarceful approach from BTP.

I thought British law said "innocent until proved guilty" i.e. the police & court system have to PROVE you guilty; it is not for you to have to prove yourself innocent. Whatever happened to that? Or, do the current government's special powers override all that? Very scary....

 

[221129]

I thought British law said "innocent until proved guilty" i.e. the police & court system have to PROVE you guilty; it is not for you to have to prove yourself innocent. Whatever happened to that? Or, do the current government's special powers override all that? Very scary....

That's correct. If you don't agree with the FPN then you can choose to challenge it in court.

 

[FGW_DID]

Yes i was accosted by BTP and given a fine for not wearing a mask and not being able to `prove` my exemption. This on the concourse at Leeds station. Disgarceful approach from BTP.

Good, well done BTP.

 

[peters]

Did you challenge it in Court, or did you pay, out of interest? If you did have a valid reason for exemption (e.g. one of the listed medical conditions) that would be easy to prove

I thought the reason the government decided people with such conditions wouldn't be required to produce evidence is that didn't want the NHS under pressure to produce a load of exemption certificates. Obviously some exempt people were sent a shielding letter earlier in the year but not everyone exempt from wearing a mask has one.

Good, well done BTP.

Presumably that person is exempt but didn't have a written doctor's note (because the government said you don't need one.) If not then they don't have justification to complain.

 

[43096]

Good, well done BTP.

Is that an ironic post?

 

[221129]

Good, well done BTP.

Yeah, a great job hassling disabled people that seemingly have done nothing wrong...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the reason the government decided people with such conditions wouldn't be required to produce evidence is that didn't want the NHS under pressure to produce a load of exemption certificates. Obviously some exempt people were sent a shielding letter earlier in the year but not everyone exempt from wearing a mask has one.

You indeed don't need to prove it to a Police Officer, and so that Officer acted out of order if they did not take a verbal statement of exemption at face value. However, if you go to Court you are generally fairly well advised to present some evidence in order to ensure that you do actually win; your word against that of a Police Officer with no or thin evidence provided by either side will tend, generally, to result in you losing.

Proving you had a reason for an exemption in Court would result in you winning, and it's not really hard to prove, showing a prescription repeat slip for an inhaler or similar would be easy proof, though obviously it would depend on why an exemption was needed.

 

[PeterC]

Yeah, a great job hassling disabled people that seemingly have done nothing wrong...

Seems perfectly reasonable to me to stop somebody without a mask. Where the conversation goes from there is another matter and without a recording of the entire incident it isn't possible say who was at fault.

 

[FGW_DID]

if they did not take a verbal statement of exemption at face value.

Just say you’re exempt and everybody has to believe you. No surprise then at the amount of people taking the p!ss.

Can you imagine if the same principle was applied elsewhere?

Blue Badges holders are exempt from certain parking regulations. To get one you have to prove you have a requirement. You have to display said blue badge to show your exemption.

Somehow I don’t think someone just saying, “I’m exempt” would really cut the mustard.

So once again, good on BTP for enforcement. If you do actually have a valid exemption, appeal the FPN, prove it and have it quashed.

 

[Darandio]

Seems perfectly reasonable to me to stop somebody without a mask. Where the conversation goes from there is another matter and without a recording of the entire incident it isn't possible say who was at fault.

There are countless videos on social media showing police harrassing people with exemptions that are not wearing a mask and completely ignoring the fact that there is no requirement to prove the exemption. Some of these people have been handcuffed and arrested for no reason along with being talked down to and openly embarrassed in front of scores of people.

Forgive me for believing that was probably the same here.

So once again, good on BTP for enforcement. If you do actually have a valid exemption, appeal the FPN, prove it and have it quashed.

And for that rape victim who cannot wear a mask because it traumatises them so badly but hasn't got anything to prove their exemption because there is no damn law that requires it? It's okay, no problem, either force them to wear a mask or take money from them but it's fine, they can always appeal it.

This attitude is the bain of 2020, people like you have become the virus.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Seems perfectly reasonable to me to stop somebody without a mask. Where the conversation goes from there is another matter and without a recording of the entire incident it isn't possible say who was at fault.

On the few occasions I actually go out I wear a face covering in places where I am required to by law (not rules, law).

However I see little difference asking someone coming out of a disable toilet to price their need for the facility, and asking someone why their not wearing a mask.
It is against the law to ask / demand to know why someone isn’t wearing a mask or reason.

 

[Tom Quinne]

There are countless videos on social media showing police harrassing people with exemptions that are not wearing a mask and completely ignoring the fact that there is no requirement to prove the exemption. Some of these people have been handcuffed and arrested for no reason along with being talked down to and openly embarrassed in front of scores of people.

Forgive me for believing that was probably the same here.

The arrest is to be enable the Police to obtain the persons details if they refuse to provide them when demanded / asked.

So your not “arrested for not wearing a mask” as some YouTube videos make out.

 

[miami]

If I don't have a ticket and board a train, I'd be subject to action based on

"You must have a valid Ticket to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one"

However

"unless one of the following circumstances applies...You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not suitably accessible"

Do I have to prove that suitability, or should the railway just take my word for it?

 

[FLIRTfan18]

The problem I've got is that, unless people are asked to give proof, the exemption rule is very open to being a abused by those who simply don't want to wear one and in doing so are putting others at risk. The other week a young man was smoking fag after fag on the platform yet claimed he was asthmatic when challenged and so was let off.
Probably around 20-30% of people on my journeys refuse to wear a mask and I'm sure if challenged they would call themselves exempt. The fact of the matter is, however, that only a very limited number of people truly do not have the ability to wear a mask. Me and my family all have asthma varying from very mild to very severe and we can all cope with having a mask on all day, let alone for a half an hour journey. Furthermore I don't see why very many people are exempt from wearing a visor.
I don't think it is in any way unreasonable to ask for proof of exemption, whether that's through one of those lanyards, a doctor's note or any other means. Its clear you are exempt if not wearing a mask, so there's no more embarassment in proving it than there is sitting without a face covering on. Personally, I think that if asked you should prove it purely out of respect for those you are travelling with, or otherwise simply don't travel. Because in doing so you are helping to root out those who are pretending to have a disability for their own gain - which when you think about it is pretty sick!

 

[Bletchleyite]

So once again, good on BTP for enforcement.

It is the job of the Police to enforce the law as it is written, not to make it up nor to enforce things that are not the law, regardless of whether they, I or anyone else happens to think they should be the law or not.

The issue of whether proof of exemption should be required or not is with the Government to resolve, or not resolve, as they see is appropriate.

As for those lanyards, they don't prove anything, you just buy one online if you want one. They are as much proof of anything as a RADAR key is.

 

[FGW_DID]

There are countless videos on social media showing police harrassing people with exemptions that are not wearing a mask and completely ignoring the fact that there is no requirement to prove the exemption. Some of these people have been handcuffed and arrested for no reason along with being talked down to and openly embarrassed in front of scores of people.

Forgive me for believing that was probably the same here.



And for that rape victim who cannot wear a mask because it traumatises them so badly but hasn't got anything to prove their exemption because there is no damn law that requires it? It's okay, no problem, either force them to wear a mask or take money from them but it's fine, they can always appeal it.

This attitude is the bain of 2020, people like you have become the virus.

No, the attitude of I can do what I like by the (not so) Great British public is the bain of 2020 and the reason why we are in such a state!

 

[221129]

The problem is I've got

Quite frankly, Tough.

 

[185143]

Just say you’re exempt and everybody has to believe you. No surprise then at the amount of people taking the p!ss.

Can you imagine if the same principle was applied elsewhere?

Blue Badges holders are exempt from certain parking regulations. To get one you have to prove you have a requirement. You have to display said blue badge to show your exemption.

Somehow I don’t think someone just saying, “I’m exempt” would really cut the mustard.

So once again, good on BTP for enforcement. If you do actually have a valid exemption, appeal the FPN, prove it and have it quashed.

The job of a Police officer is to enforce the law.

The law does not state that you need to provide proof, indeed the guidance specifically states that you do not need to carry proof of exemption.

So no, not "Good on BTP for enforcement" as they are acting in breach of the legislation.

The blue badge analogy isn't really relevant as the specific requirement of the blue badge entitlement is that you meet specified criteria to qualify, otherwise you don't get one.

Fining a disabled person and telling them to prove it in court is saying "You don't look disabled". A large number of people would do well to remember that not all disabilities are visible.

 

[Darandio]

I don't think it is in any way unreasonable to ask for proof of exemption, whether that's through one of those lanyards, a doctor's note or any other means.

It's unreasonable because the law states the following:

If you have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering:

• you do not routinely need to show any written evidence of this
• you do not need show an exemption card

If you don't like it, take it up with your MP. If everyone simply wore a lanyard, you'd complain they can be bought on Amazon for 50p so probably aren't exempt in your eyes anyway. So then you want everyone to get a doctors note? Good luck with that, the GP's themselves aren't doing it for reasons which should be obvious and it's one of the reasons the law is written as it is!

 

[3rd rail land]

Just say you’re exempt and everybody has to believe you. No surprise then at the amount of people taking the p!ss.

Can you imagine if the same principle was applied elsewhere?

Blue Badges holders are exempt from certain parking regulations. To get one you have to prove you have a requirement. You have to display said blue badge to show your exemption.

Somehow I don’t think someone just saying, “I’m exempt” would really cut the mustard.

So once again, good on BTP for enforcement. If you do actually have a valid exemption, appeal the FPN, prove it and have it quashed.

So you think everyone who is legitimately exempt should have to prove it when challenged by the police or have to appeal a FPN despite the law saying you do not need to prove an exemption?
If I were exempt and proof was demanded by the police I would want the officer's details so I could make a formal complaint against that person.

 

[FLIRTfan18]

Quite frankly, Tough.

It's unreasonable because the law states the following:



If you don't like it, take it up with your MP. If everyone simply wore a lanyard, you'd complain they can be bought on Amazon for 50p so probably aren't exempt in your eyes anyway. So then you want everyone to get a doctors note? Good luck with that, the GP's themselves aren't doing it for reasons which should be obvious and it's one of the reasons the law is written as it is!

Whether it's the law or not is it not worth doing out of pure respect for fellow passengers?

 

[Darandio]

Whether it's the law or not is it not worth doing out of pure respect for fellow passengers?

Is what worth doing? Enforcing laws that don't exist? If so, be careful what you wish for.

 

[FGW_DID]

The law does not state that you need to provide proof, indeed the guidance specifically states that you do not need to carry proof of exemption.

Where’s the facepalm emoji? What really is the point then? Just do as you like Britain!

 

[221129]

Whether it's the law or not is it not worth doing out of pure respect for fellow passengers?

No, because it is no ones business other than my own as to what my exemption may or may not be.

 

[3rd rail land]

No, because it is no ones business other than my own as to what my exemption may or may not be.

Exactly. Not everyone wishes to tell a stranger, as this is what a police officer is, what disability they have.

 

[221129]

Just do as you like Britain!

Just disabled people doing as they are told by the government...