• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Police eject Passengers off train in Plymouth

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sleepy

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2009
Messages
1,537
Location
East Anglia
I can remember that Friday nights even the Sleeper had a relief train in the summer months. Isn't privatisation great ? (ROSCO :()
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

D1009

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2012
Messages
3,166
Location
Stoke Gifford
The problem is that the normal service over the Cornish main line is inadequate, compared to the Falmouth branch which has seen a huge increase in services and traffic in recent years. Hopefully when the normal service on the main line increases, it will ease the burden at Bank Holiday time. At least GWR has acknowledged the latest problem.
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
I know, gawd knows what the TMs would make of some of our services out of Waterloo in the evening, most are full & standing to at least Woking,Guildford or Farnborough.

Roughly the same as what they make of their own equally rammed trains leaving Paddington, I expect... ;)
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
This report from the BBC site at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-35903343



So, how heavily loaded does a service have to be before being considered unsafe? What triggers it from being normally overcrowded to unsafe?

Heavily enough for the Train Manager to be unable to make his way through the train to do the SDO at the shorter stations in Cornwall!

I know, gawd knows what the TMs would make of some of our services out of Waterloo in the evening, most are full & standing to at least Woking,Guildford or Farnborough.

does the guard have to make his way through the train between stations to do SDO at different coaches through out the part of the journey where the train is crush loaded?
No they dont so it isnt really relevant. <D ;)

As has been pointed out, when the IEP/AT300/woteva are in service this service will probably be 10 coaches to Plymouth and then 5 to Penzance, thats going to be popular, not! :roll:

This is one reason why, subject to stock, the timetable pz to ply will go every 30 mins from 2018.

No it isnt, its going to two trains an hour, not half hourly!

Don't suppose I could ask visitors not to ram on the trains in the afternoon/evening peak? It's not pleasant for you, or us dopey lot headed home after work!

It isnt pleasant for us either as we try to change ends at St Davids and the dopes wont move away from the cab door so we can get on, they dont 'get' that the train isnt going anywhere if the driver doesnt get on! :roll:

I have even had one prat refuse to move so I just went and sat on the platform seat until the platform staff removed him! :lol:
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,867
Location
Airedale
No, because those services in summer and on pre bank holiday Fridays went through to Penzance.

Quite so. In fact in the pre HST era there were only a couple of NE-SW trains during the day that turned round at Plymouth.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,029
No it isnt, its going to two trains an hour, not half hourly!

At present, there are many gaps of over an hour between Penzance and Plymouth. The problem is exacerbated in the evening peak because there are significantly fewer services 'down' than in the morning peak in the 'up' direction, getting all those people to Paddington (or Edinburgh)! It's even worse for those travelling from Truro westbound at school and business closing times, where the number of trains has halved over the last fifteen years between 16.30 and 18.00.
 

Flying Snail

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2006
Messages
1,625
This is one reason why, subject to stock, the timetable pz to ply will go every 30 mins from 2018.

Shorter long-distance trains running more frequently. If only that experiment had been tried before we may be able to predict the outcome. :roll:
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,686
Usually passenger number thin out by the time the train reaches Plymouth and the Cornish stations.
...
Ironduke. Have you ever travelled on services into Devon and Cornwall during bank holidays. It very likely was as the article says.

No. Never. I was only going by the mobile photos that were used by the BBC to justify the problem - which from what I can see, they do not.
I'm quite prepared to believe your reported experience, however.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,686
You don't know where those people got on. Some of them could have been on since Paddington, other boarding at Plymouth. Hence the 'possibly'

Please read the BBC report.
Of course some - perhaps quite a few - will have been on since Paddington. But the report indicates the serious overcrowding started at Plymouth, because of two earlier trains disgorging their passengers there.

The report, of course, may be incorrect. But that is what the whole thread is based on.

In case it's not obvious, I was not being critical of train crew for refusing to continue unless some passengers were told to detrain and wait. I was being critical of the BBC for using photos which did not properly justify the headlines.
 

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,164
Location
UK
No. Never. I was only going by the mobile photos that were used by the BBC to justify the problem - which from what I can see, they do not.
I'm quite prepared to believe your reported experience, however.

Those photos were the actual conditions. The bbc weren't there, they were reporting what the passengers and railway said.

Worth noting that the photos were in first class. £200 single (£400 return) to sit on the floor.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,230
So are you going to stand for what could possibly be a 5h 11m journey?

That's the Down Rivi, one of the busiest, most popular & yet fastest trains of the day to Penzance, the best option would be to do what it used to do and that's run non stop PAD-EXD as there's a train to Paignton just 3-4 minutes in front of it and that could then be looped at RDG for 1C77 to pass and it could then follow it.

But that's too simple.

But the Paignton service runs via Bristol.

And what about anyone wanting to travel from Reading (or connecting there) to Cornwall? I do love the way the answer to everything seems to be to pass non-stop through Reading - even if, in this case, that legendary creature the Reading Commuter was entirely blameless...

GWR ran extra HSTs from Paddington to Plymouth at 08.00 and 10.40 on Friday morning - something that will no doubt continue in future with Class 800/802 operations, given the thinned-out peak services on other routes, such as the Cotswold Line, on bank holidays.

And on Thursday, HSTs were rustled up from somewhere to operate extras to Plymouth at 14.34 and Penzance at 19.33. And even a 19.12 relief to Swansea with the first stop Bristol Parkway.

Tomorrow there are extras to Paddington at 14.48 from Plymouth and 15.30 from Penzance.

That said, they clearly ought to have been looking at likely demand for onward travel from Plymouth into Cornwall on Friday as well, plus the likelihood people from Cornwall who had been up in Plymouth for the morning wanted to get home before the big hole in services west from 13.49 to 15.11 - a number probably increased on the day by the dire weather forecast for the rest of the weekend.
 
Last edited:

Groningen

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2015
Messages
2,866
Plymouth - Penzance
6.28, 7.02, 8.14, 9.21, 10.39, 11.25, 12.39, 13.11, 13.49, 15.12, 15.57
17.23, 17.55, 18.42, 19.01, 19.31, 19.49, 20.26, 20.50, 21.20, 22.29

The gaps in the afternoon and many trains in the evening.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
15,982
Location
0036
Those photos were the actual conditions. The bbc weren't there, they were reporting what the passengers and railway said.

Worth noting that the photos were in first class. £200 single (£400 return) to sit on the floor.

I'd bet the number of passengers with FOS/FOR tickets was approximately nil. Maybe a small few FSRs but the rest will have been SSRs or advances with weekend first (which the train manager probably wasn't able to collect).
 

Groningen

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2015
Messages
2,866
I may assume that your tickets have dates on them, so that they can not be used a second time?
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
15,982
Location
0036
Crowding was significantly worse than this on Cardiff Central services during the Rugby World Cup last year, but there were no attempts to reduce loading screen for safety reasons then. Indeed, GWR was happy to keep cramming people on.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,909
GWR ran extra HSTs from Paddington to Plymouth at 08.00 and 10.40 on Friday morning - something that will no doubt continue in future with Class 800/802 operations, given the thinned-out peak services on other routes, such as the Cotswold Line, on bank holidays.

And on Thursday, HSTs were rustled up from somewhere to operate extras to Plymouth at 14.34 and Penzance at 19.33. And even a 19.12 relief to Swansea with the first stop Bristol Parkway.

Tomorrow there are extras to Paddington at 14.48 from Plymouth and 15.30 from Penzance.

Some of these will be in marginal time or using 'spare' resources. Here I am referring to maintenance exams being postponed and train booked to sit spare to work in the event of sickness being put to work.

The 19:12 relief to Swansea is not unheard of before holiday time and ran last Christmas and August Bank Holiday as well I believe.
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
Crowding was significantly worse than this on Cardiff Central services during the Rugby World Cup last year, but there were no attempts to reduce loading screen for safety reasons then. Indeed, GWR was happy to keep cramming people on.

In your Cardiff example does the guard have to make his way through the train between stations to carry out SDO or are they able to stay at one door/ vestibule and work from there?

That is the issue in the Plymouth example which is the feature of this thread!
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Crowding was significantly worse than this on Cardiff Central services during the Rugby World Cup last year, but there were no attempts to reduce loading screen for safety reasons then. Indeed, GWR was happy to keep cramming people on.

But Cardiff services have no need for the Train Manager to be able to move through the train to work the SDO at short platforms, unlike Cornish services (as explained above).
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,029
Plymouth - Penzance
6.28, 7.02, 8.14, 9.21, 10.39, 11.25, 12.39, 13.11, 13.49, 15.12, 15.57
17.23, 17.55, 18.42, 19.01, 19.31, 19.49, 20.26, 20.50, 21.20, 22.29

The gaps in the afternoon and many trains in the evening.

That's because the service is only geared towards passengers from London/Reading and, in the evening, the two (not the six of a previous posting) XC services of the day that go to the far west. In practice, you can get 90 to 120 minute gaps from Plymouth just at the times that commuters/shoppers/schoolkids wish to go home, and there is no alternative public transport.
 

bnm

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,996
That's because the service is only geared towards passengers from London/Reading and, in the evening, the two (not the six of a previous posting) XC services of the day that go to the far west. In practice, you can get 90 to 120 minute gaps from Plymouth just at the times that commuters/shoppers/schoolkids wish to go home, and there is no alternative public transport.

Where's the 120 minute gap in service?
 

Requeststop

Member
Joined
21 Jan 2012
Messages
944
Location
Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea
Busaholic did say "In practice, you can get 90-120 minute gaps...." this is very easy when services from up country can be delayed and often are delayed. XC could do a lot more on the Plymouth - Penzance run. There are 4 daily services on the Far West route. The first originates from Plymouth at 06:28. the next three daily services depart Plymouth at 19:01, 19:49, and 20:50 all of which have travelled down from Scotland. During the day, XC have 13 other services terminating at Plymouth. Surely it's not too difficult for XC to arrange for 3-4 of those services to extend to Penzance during the lunchtime mid afternoon periods? I can feel the knives being drawn as I press the Post Reply button.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,771
it is pretty much a four hour round trip for a train to run Plymouth-Penzance-Plymouth, with a short turn around and no room for error. More realistically four and half hours.

So to extend XC services to Penzance would require more stock.
 

ScouserGirl

Member
Joined
28 Dec 2015
Messages
219
I have seen that GWR have put an extra service on from Plymouth at 14:48 today to London Paddington, hopefully this will help but you will guess people will still moan over them being cramped on the train...
 

Groningen

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2015
Messages
2,866
These are the Penzance - Plymouth trains.

13.03, 13.45, 14,49, 15.59, 16.44, 17.39, 19.16, 20.18, 21.45, 22.08

What is the benefit of the last train. Between arrival of the last 2 trains in Plymouth is 13 minutes.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,230
That's because the service is only geared towards passengers from London/Reading and, in the evening, the two (not the six of a previous posting) XC services of the day that go to the far west. In practice, you can get 90 to 120 minute gaps from Plymouth just at the times that commuters/shoppers/schoolkids wish to go home, and there is no alternative public transport.

While the current timetable is not good enough - and I'm sure GWR themselves would admit as much - we know that their plans for the next couple of years and especially December 2018 will change that.

Please don't make sweeping claims like "there is no alternative public transport". There are plenty of buses to Saltash, while beyond there Plymouth Citybus's 11/11A services are half-hourly to Liskeard from Plymouth until 18.50 and hourly to Bodmin (serving Parkway and the town centre) up to the 17.50 from Plymouth. Obviously not as fast as the trains but definitely an alternative for the eastern part of Cornwall.

The frequency in the evening is as much to do with having trains in place at Penzance for the early morning services to Plymouth (including four arrivals from Cornwall between 07.41 and 08.49) and beyond as it is meeting the needs of passengers from London/Reading (and one or two other places beyond Devon).
 

broadgage

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2012
Messages
1,094
Location
Somerset
Not unusual to be heavily loaded on public holidays.

And if you think it's bad now with HSTs, wait until the AT300s or IEPs start running down there in 5 car formations or whatever they're going to run down there (as it seems to change almost on a weekly basis!).

I share your concerns.
There seems to be general view that GWR services are very lightly loaded west of Plymouth and that 5 cars will be ample for that part of the route.
As you point out, plans seem to change almost weekly, but current thinking seems to be that peak hour services from London will be 2 DMUs each of 5 cars, with one unit being detached at Plymouth.
In fact as these reports show, many services west of Plymouth are very busy indeed, and traffic is growing.
Whilst GWR will no doubt point to the improved capacity of the new DMUs IF run in multiple, the voyager experience does suggest that single unit operation will be the norm and double unit operation the exception.
After all, if they intend to REGULARLY run them as two 5 car units attached, why not order most of fleet as full length units ? with only a minority of half length DMUs for off peak or secondary services.
 

83G/84D

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2011
Messages
5,952
Location
Cornwall
These are the Penzance - Plymouth trains.

13.03, 13.45, 14,49, 15.59, 16.44, 17.39, 19.16, 20.18, 21.45, 22.08

What is the benefit of the last train. Between arrival of the last 2 trains in Plymouth is 13 minutes.

The 2208 train is a XC voyager and basically a move to get it back to Plymouth and Laira for overnight servicing with one returning west in the morning from Plymouth to Penzance.

Due to limitations on Long Rock depot only 2 Voyagers can normally be accomodated overnight. It remains to be seen if that will change after the Long Rock depot enhancements are complete.
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
After all, if they intend to REGULARLY run them as two 5 car units attached, why not order most of fleet as full length units ? with only a minority of half length DMUs for off peak or secondary services.
Another point noboby has picked up on-
If they run them as double sets how are the passengers in the rear unit going to get out at the shorter stations?
SDO will be front 4 or 5 only so the whole unit will be off the end so they wont have any way of getting off the train!
 
Last edited:

D1009

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2012
Messages
3,166
Location
Stoke Gifford
I have seen that GWR have put an extra service on from Plymouth at 14:48 today to London Paddington, hopefully this will help but you will guess people will still moan over them being cramped on the train...
Yes, and there were relief trains to Plymouth on Friday, but the problem was at Plymouth with people going into Cornwall. Hopefully though many of the long distance people will be staying down there longer and won't all be returning on the same day.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,230
Another point noboby has picked up on-
If they run them as double sets how are the passengers in the rear unit going to get out at the shorter stations?
SDO will be front 4 or 5 only so the whole unit will be off the end so they wont have any way of getting off the train!

Do we really need to go over this again?

It has already been picked up on numerous times in the Class 800 thread, so if I get it over and done with here, can we not turn this thread into yet another IEP/800/AT300 thread?

The SDO is set up in such a way as to allow opening of the doors on any part of a nine-car or 2x5-car formation. With 2x5-car, the operating procedure will be to stop part of each set on a short platform and open the appropriate doors, with either ETCS balises or GPS-driven kit telling the system which doors can be opened at each station. For full details see pages 45-47 of the technical specification here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/82840/tts-redacted.pdf

Similarly, the long/short train west of Plymouth question has also been done to death in both the Class 800 and AT300 threads. If someone wants to continue that line of discussion, maybe try those threads rather than this one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top