Police entrapment

[LexyBoy]

As an analogy - off duty policeman walks peacefully around south Glasgow. Occasionally folk start on him, and he flashes his badge. Eventually someone comes along and he gets a punch in the face, then arrests the miscreant concerned.

Just because everyone is doing something, doesn't mean it's acceptable. High time to get rid of the requirement for speed cameras to be marked, that would soon ensure speed limits are seen as a limit rather than a guideline. The police don't announe the locations they are conducting drink drive checks do they? Won't happen of course, the car lobby is much too powerful.

I agree that it doesn't sound like a great example though (and the focus on motorway speeding is stupid IMO).

(No offence meant to anyone from that fine city BTW).

 

[jon0844]

Can they even do drink drive checks? I thought that they always had to find some other silly reason to stop you.

"Sorry sir, I thought your numberplate looked a little dodgy but I can now see it's fine... can I get you to blow into this?"

Fixed speed cameras are pointless and miss too many far more offences. At the very least, introduce more use of SPECS (average speed cameras) though - but let's PLEASE not just try and replace real cops with technology that people can get around, or miss the bigger picture.

I've had far too many incidents where a car ahead has suddenly slowed to 20mph or 30mph to pass a Gatso that's in a 40, 50 or 60mph limit. Nowadays you even have the speed limit written by or on the camera in many cases, so these people are clearly not aware of what the hell they're doing when they panic and abruptly slam their brakes on just in case they're speeding.

Obviously they didn't know what speed they were supposed to be going, or what speed they were going, which is somewhat worrying when it comes to their ability to do anything else.

 

[LexyBoy]

I've had far too many incidents where a car ahead has suddenly slowed to 20mph or 30mph to pass a Gatso that's in a 40, 50 or 60mph limit. Nowadays you even have the speed limit written by or on the camera in many cases, so these people are clearly not aware of what the hell they're doing when they panic and abruptly slam their brakes on just in case they're speeding.

Exactly - if they didn't know the camera was there, they would either rapidly learn to pay more attention, or not be on the road.

 

[GB]

Fixed speed cameras are pointless and miss too many far more offences. At the very least, introduce more use of SPECS (average speed cameras).

As a driver I hate them...not becuase I speed becuase I very rarely ever do (to expensive to speed in many ways) but becuase I find myself looking at the speedo and rear view mirror alot more than I would like!

 

[jon0844]

I am sure things would be safer if some motorists, that are already pretty inattentive, didn't just drive with the belief that if they stick to the limit or go below it - they'll somehow never have an accident (or cause another one).

Naturally, in an ideal world, such motorists would lose their licence for not being alert enough of what's going on (and that doesn't automatically mean old people) but given the outrage that would follow, that's never going to happen.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

Don't HGVs and buses have limiters on them so that they can't exceed speed limits?

Perhaps its time for this to be extended to cars...

 

[richw]

I'd say the policr Audi was doing the drivers who didn't undertake a favour. Preventing them from overtaking them by speeding

 

[carriageline]

Don't HGVs and buses have limiters on them so that they can't exceed speed limits?

Perhaps its time for this to be extended to cars...

I'm not sure if your serious, but that's an absolutely ridiculous idea.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

I'm not sure if your serious, but that's an absolutely ridiculous idea.

Why ridiculous? Nobody should be driving at more than 70mph anyway, so why allow vehicles capable of speeds far in excess of that figure on the roads without a "governor"?

 

[jon0844]

Because you can take your car abroad where speed limits are higher, and anyone will tell you that speeding up can often save you from an accident just as much as braking hard.

 

[Eagle]

And you can take your car on private land where you can drive it as fast as you like.

 

[jon0844]

And you can take your car on private land where you can drive it as fast as you like.

Indeed.

Speed limiters are potentially dangerous, and I believe all cars that have this as a voluntary setting will allow acceleration if you kick down hard.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

Going abroad? Reset the controller/governor to the appropriate speed limit for your destination.

Driving on private land? Turn it off.

Speeding up to avoid accidents - decent point, but more likely to be accelerating from, say, 30 mph to avoid being rammed by a vehicle coming from the side. I can see that cars (and even more so motorbikes) are more vulnerable in this respect than buses or trucks, so maybe a limiter to 85/90 mph to allow for a brief spurt up from 70 for accident avoidance??

 

[carriageline]

Are you speaking of setting a limiter to 70mph?

I wonder, in terms of scale, how many accidents and deaths are caused by people exceeding them speeds on motorways?

I imagine more people are killed/crash doing 70 in a 30/50.

Accelerating away and out of an accident

Track days

Being chased on the motorway, you will want to be getting away, not hitting 70.

Imagine a motorway where everyone in the middle/inside lane is doing 70 (often happens), a que would soon ensure when no one can overtake.

Overtaking in general often requires speed breaking.

If you can change the speed limit or turn it off as easy as you say, then what's the point? As it will end up being deactivated as a few HGV drivers etc do anyway..

 

[GB]

Going abroad? Reset the controller/governor to the appropriate speed limit for your destination.

Driving on private land? Turn it off.

Speeding up to avoid accidents - decent point, but more likely to be accelerating from, say, 30 mph to avoid being rammed by a vehicle coming from the side. I can see that cars (and even more so motorbikes) are more vulnerable in this respect than buses or trucks, so maybe a limiter to 85/90 mph to allow for a brief spurt up from 70 for accident avoidance??

If you can change the settings or turn it off does that not defeat the purpose of it in the first place?

 

[tsr]

Being chased on the motorway, you will want to be getting away, not hitting 70.

Pardon me? If you are being chased by the police, you need to stop rather quickly, or you will end up with very little car left - and a night or two in a cell. If you are being chased by someone you don't like very much, then call 999. If you end up with someone bearing down on you in Lane 3 (or whatever) whilst you overtake at a reasonable speed, they're probably speeding, so you'd probably do well to keep clear in the first place and certainly not exceed the speed limit unless they are going to ram you.

 

[carriageline]

Pardon me? If you are being chased by the police, you need to stop rather quickly, or you will end up with very little car left - and a night or two in a cell. If you are being chased by someone you don't like very much, then call 999. If you end up with someone bearing down on you in Lane 3 (or whatever) whilst you overtake at a reasonable speed, they're probably speeding, so you'd probably do well to keep clear in the first place and certainly not exceed the speed limit unless they are going to ram you.

I obviously didn't mean the police did i?...

So what it someone aggressive is chasing you, you ring 999, then what? Trundle along waiting for the police to turn up? Whilst some maniac is trying to barge you off the road.

No thanks, rather pedal to the metal out of there.

 

[deltic1989]

I obviously didn't mean the police did i?...

So what it someone aggressive is chasing you, you ring 999, then what? Trundle along waiting for the police to turn up? Whilst some maniac is trying to barge you off the road.

No thanks, rather pedal to the metal out of there.

In reality how often is this likely to happen? I use motorways at least 5 days a week and I have never once seen anyone being chased by anyone other than the Police.

I have a few tips on how to spot unmarked Police cars for anyone that is interested. (this is from my own experience, yours may vary.)
They will usually be a high end vehicle e.g. BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz. Volvo's are not uncommon, and I have seen the odd Ford Focus ST.
They will usually have more aerials than have any earthly business being on a car.
The front occupant(s) will more than likely be wearing yellow hi-viz jackets.
There will more than likely be a lot of lights about, usually in or on the front grille, the back of the rear headrests, or on the corners of the bumper.
99 times out of 100 they will be a 4 door saloon.
Also from the height I usually view them, there is all the extra interior equipment.

 

[richw]

I
99 times out of 100 they will be a 4 door saloon.
Also from the height I usually view them, there is all the extra interior equipment.

Down this way around Devon and Somerset on the M5 the majority are BMW estates. A few Volvos and Audis.

90% of Devon and Cornwall's police fleet of cars marked and unmarked are WA registrations. 5% are WJ registrations and the remainder are a mismatch of variety. At the moment D+C have some Astra estates on hire from Northampton on trial with a view to look at replacing their marked Focus' fleet with Astra's. These are all marked cars and are Northampton registered on 62 and 13 registrations.

 

[Tomnick]

Interesting. The argument that it's ok to sit in one of the overtaking lanes as long as you're driving at the speed limit is often dragged up in defence of the ignorant motorists who see fit to pootle along in the middle lane all day. One man's (indicated) 70mph is another one's 67mph or less though, given the allowable discrepancy in speedo accuracy - and 3mph is a surprisingly noticable difference. I don't know whether Plod have more accurate equipment for routine driving, but I'd certainly suggest that they were acting foolishly if they were actually driving at 68mph and thus impeding the progress of others who wish to drive still within the speed limit.

 

[jon0844]

One man's (indicated) 70mph is another one's 67mph or less though, given the allowable discrepancy in speedo accuracy - and 3mph is a surprisingly noticable difference.

Given all modern cars have speedos that are offset so they can NEVER underread, I set my cruise control based on a GPS speed reading. That means probably doing 3-4mph 'more' than others who believe they're driving at the limit.

Of course this does mean you slowly gain on other vehicles, but then you just ease off. That extra 3mph obviously makes a bit of a difference on long drives, but I'm sure it means some people tut as they think I'm speeding.

Police cars (traffic ones at least) will be regularly calibrated and spot on accurate.

In my experience, many will drive along in lane one on routine patrol and sometimes do around 60 (possibly for fuel efficiency, or more likely just to avoid having to overtake lots of lorries). What really gets me is how many people are too scared to overtake, even when you can do 70mph!

 

[richw]

In my experience, many will drive along in lane one on routine patrol and sometimes do around 60 (possibly for fuel efficiency, or more likely just to avoid having to overtake lots of lorries). What really gets me is how many people are too scared to overtake, even when you can do 70mph!

I was once told you can legally break a speed limit within reasonable margins to over take a vehicle doing less than the speed limit, as long as you slow to the speed limit immediately after passing the slower vehicle.

I.E someone doing 58 on a single carriageway, you can exceed the 60 limit to pass the slower vehicle as long as you reduce to 60 as soon as your clear and safe to do so.

This was word of mouth, but I wonder whether this is correct?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Someone posted earlier about the police having high end cars, and not being cost effective.

The police (and other emergency services) get considerable discounts on bulk buying cars (often with modifications by the maker that aren't sold to the public) through organisations like BMW Authorities.

Traffic cars are generally Volvo T5's, BMW estates and Skoda VRS.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Yes, but do they get the discount on the extra fuel required for them?

 

[jon0844]

I was once told you can legally break a speed limit within reasonable margins to over take a vehicle doing less than the speed limit, as long as you slow to the speed limit immediately after passing the slower vehicle.

I.E someone doing 58 on a single carriageway, you can exceed the 60 limit to pass the slower vehicle as long as you reduce to 60 as soon as your clear and safe to do so.

This was word of mouth, but I wonder whether this is correct?

Probably not legally correct, but the police usually show discretion. From a traffic cop I know in Essex Police, they certainly don't worry as much about a bit of excess speed as some members of the public do.

Inappropriate speed is more what they're concerned about, and speed cameras can't capture that. They certainly don't adjust the trigger speed in bad weather or fog, for example.

 

[richw]

Yes, but do they get the discount on the extra fuel required for them?

I believe the police forces get reimbursed by government of all fuel duty, so effectively a hefty discount
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Inappropriate speed is more what they're concerned about,

Earlier today on a road with one lane for each direction, double lines down the centre, speed limit was generally 50mph with 60mph in places, I was following a brand new BMW 320 who never went above 20mph over the course of about 10 miles, and slammed on his brakes every time he approached a bend or there was an oncoming car. This is more dangerous in my view than doing 80mph in perfectly dry conditions on a 3 lane motorway. The driver was a very elderly gentleman

 

[12CSVT]

Earlier today on a road with one lane for each direction, double lines down the centre, speed limit was generally 50mph with 60mph in places, I was following a brand new BMW 320 who never went above 20mph over the course of about 10 miles, and slammed on his brakes every time he approached a bend or there was an oncoming car. This is more dangerous in my view than doing 80mph in perfectly dry conditions on a 3 lane motorway. The driver was a very elderly gentleman

This highlights the need for people to be required to re-take their driving test once they reach a certain age if they wish to continue driving (maybe at 70, and every 5 years after that). One common problem with many elderly drivers is poor eyesight.

 

[DarloRich]

Indeed.

Speed limiters are potentially dangerous, and I believe all cars that have this as a voluntary setting will allow acceleration if you kick down hard.

Potentially dangerous - what tosh. :roll::roll: All of our vehicles are fitted with speed limiters at 70 mph and it improves driving standards, reduces fuel consumption and has little or no impact on journey time. Coupled with a push on driving practice and standards we have seen a reduction in traffic related issues.


What is dangerous are poor driving standards and poor driver education/ technique.

 

[jon0844]

Why do car manufacturer give the kick-down override option then? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limiter

Are you absolutely sure that your vehicles will not, under any circumstances, let you override that limit for even a short time?

Agree about the poor driving standards and eduction though.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

That article implies there is only the kickdown option on non-statutory, programmable limiters. So optional ones.